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Yeah I mean, really, there are many perceived solutions to this and people should experiment! But also be very clear about what you, as a mod, will do about lurkers in the OP so that players can then decide if it's worth it to dunk out a lurker.
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Mar 15, 2019 17:05
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Modkill/freelynch lurkers, if you can't find a replacement quickly, using whatever variant you like best. Alt - clearly state you in the setup, as the mod, are not going to modkill or allow free lynches.
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Mar 15, 2019 17:07
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The extra context missing here is that town let claimed scum live another three days to endgame. They didn’t lose because of one lurker.
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Mar 15, 2019 17:15
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Jonathan Fisk posted:The extra context missing here is that town let claimed scum live another three days to endgame. They didn’t lose because of one lurker.
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Mar 15, 2019 17:20
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Pander posted:TL;DR I'm scum, lynch me today. I don’t disagree that Alasdair’s lurking was unfair to town but town also went 2/7 on lynches and 0/2 on town vigs. The only reason his lurking was a tipping point was that nobody bothered having good reads to begin with.
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Mar 15, 2019 17:26
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Jonathan Fisk posted:I don’t disagree that Alasdair’s lurking was unfair to town but town also went 2/7 on lynches and 0/2 on town vigs. The only reason his lurking was a tipping point was that nobody bothered having good reads to begin with. Yes, if you completely remove all context behind that statement, including the post itself, we do look pretty foolish! Also, Town went 4/7 on lynches.
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Mar 15, 2019 17:28
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Jonathan Fisk posted:The extra context missing here is that town let claimed scum live another three days to endgame. They didn’t lose because of one lurker. OK?
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Mar 15, 2019 17:32
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Jonathan Fisk posted:I don’t disagree that Alasdair’s lurking was unfair to town but town also went 2/7 on lynches and 0/2 on town vigs. The only reason his lurking was a tipping point was that nobody bothered having good reads to begin with. Like, what do you think about the discussion as a whole on being more open about what you will do as a mod w/r/t lurkers?
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Mar 15, 2019 17:33
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Ask anyone in the spec doc how good towns scumreads were, they sure had the full context I forgot kaschei but it’s generous to consider lumpen a threat to town. Even if you do that’s still 4/9 town kills accurate when only 3 scum night kills stuck
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Mar 15, 2019 17:34
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Max posted:Like, what do you think about the discussion as a whole on being more open about what you will do as a mod w/r/t lurkers? I don’t think it’s the mod’s obligation to clean up for town. I *can* clarify, sure, but like Hal said in the discord that poo poo used to sort itself out without people rending garments about the mod not doing it for them
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Mar 15, 2019 17:35
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I feel like this is getting away from the issue we're talking about now.
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Mar 15, 2019 17:35
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Jonathan Fisk posted:I don’t think it’s the mod’s obligation to clean up for town. I *can* clarify, sure, but like Hal said in the discord that poo poo used to sort itself out without people rending garments about the mod not doing it for them OK.
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Mar 15, 2019 17:35
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Jonathan Fisk posted:I don’t think it’s the mod’s obligation to clean up for town. I *can* clarify, sure, but like Hal said in the discord that poo poo used to sort itself out without people rending garments about the mod not doing it for them Hal would be wrong. Historically, modkills and replacements were the norm for low posters. Mods were definitely involved in helping keep the game active through prods as well.
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Mar 15, 2019 17:38
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who breaks the record keeping tie, Ecco?
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Mar 15, 2019 17:38
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Jonathan Fisk posted:I don’t think it’s the mod’s obligation to clean up for town. I *can* clarify, sure, but like Hal said in the discord that poo poo used to sort itself out without people rending garments about the mod not doing it for them I think it's mod obligation to enforce some norm on participation when advertising a game as "high expectations wrt to effort". That was a lie you told me to get me to sign up: there were actually zero expectations.
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Mar 15, 2019 17:39
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I say what I mean. I can’t account for your reading further, and I’m sorry is the impression you had is that I’d handle free lynches!
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Mar 15, 2019 17:42
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Perhaps, in that case, we should be more clear about it in the OP!
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Mar 15, 2019 17:43
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Moving forward, I’ll make sure to add a rider that includes “I expect you to lynch or otherwise kill players you want gone from the game” in order to let players know the kind of wacky mod they’re getting 
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Mar 15, 2019 17:45
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Jonathan Fisk posted:I say what I mean. I can’t account for your reading further, and I’m sorry is the impression you had is that I’d handle free lynches! I guess the honest "I'll actively recruit shitposters and let the game be ruined by inactivity" wasn't as good a selling point. I'll remember to read things you say in the least generous light possible in the future.
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Mar 15, 2019 17:46
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Jonathan Fisk posted:Moving forward, I’ll make sure to add a rider that includes “I expect you to lynch or otherwise kill players you want gone from the game” in order to let players know the kind of wacky mod they’re getting You’re really nailing this.
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Mar 15, 2019 17:48
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Pinterest Mom posted:I guess the honest "I'll actively recruit shitposters and let the game be ruined by inactivity" wasn't as good a selling point. I'll remember to read things you say in the least generous light possible in the future. That’s unfair to chores, who had the only good town reads in the game
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Mar 15, 2019 17:48
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merk posted:You’re really nailing this. Similarly, trying to blame one lurker for a loss here is ludicrously generous to town and reads like a sore loser’s excuse.
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Mar 15, 2019 17:50
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Jonathan Fisk posted:Similarly, trying to blame one lurker for a loss here is ludicrously generous to town and reads like a sore loser’s excuse. I had a lot of other thoughts than that in the game thread. The lurker left me with sour grapes which is why I’m upset about it. I guess we can part ways on the topic at this point. You seem to want to snipe instead of anything else. Good luck!
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Mar 15, 2019 17:54
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It’s not sniping to disagree with you, merk. Characterizing it as such doesn’t make you come off as the big man to anyone that matters. The fundamental solution to all of the nonsense in my game was to not buy into bullshit results and unusual actions and instead make individual reads on players. The onus was intentionally put upon players to actually play mafia in the face of major obfuscation and *that’s* the effort I was alluding to. We can disagree whether Alasdair could be read in that context (I do feel lurkers can be assessed as a rule) but town didn’t really get into that at all mid to late game anyway, so as far as my view it’s a moot point
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Mar 15, 2019 17:58
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I think managing player expectations is extremely important, and being clear about a game's gimmicks, lurker mechanics, and intended level of balance helps people decide whether or not they really want to sign up. Lurker disposal mechanics (or lack thereof!) are specifically important, because too much lurking is either the most or second most (behind a lot of people engaging in personal attacks) likely way for a game to turn to poo poo. Players need to know whether they're expected to handle the job of dealing with lurkers, or whether the mod will cover it for them. I want to be clear: I'm coming at this from getting much of this feedback (vocalized and observed) from players for Winefia, which was an incredibly non-traditional setup with equally non-traditional balance; this is not a commentary on any one game, just a point to be made overall.
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Mar 15, 2019 18:01
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That’s a fine principle in general. This game, however, was thematically based on a cult that necessitated the ingestion of hallucinogenic drugs as a requirement of entry and sustained membership in the group, and the experience was cultivated to reflect that state of subtle discomfort and uncertainty. I’d compare it most as taking inspiration from Ernie’s final frontier, but less expansive in structure. broadly, I now understand that players have the expectation that going into any game in the current state of samafia there will be certain norms, including efforts made by the mod to finesse the game along, unless explicitly stated otherwise. I generally don’t have that expectation but I also haven’t played as much in recent years. I generally view lurker modkills as unreasonable interference on the part of the mod, even if the game should “suffer” for the lack of it. I’ll make that clear in the future for anyone who should play in a future game of mine.
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Mar 15, 2019 18:07
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yeah there’s been a lot of times when there’s been lurkers and everyone is like “well maybe the mod will sort it out” but then it doesnt and we get a game of “hey lets kill this lurker because he’s a big question mark” vs “lets not waste a lunch on somebody the mod might deal with”. explicit rules would be rly nice to not have those situations come out. also i hate lurker guns (too much power to scum imho) and freely lunchable lurkers (too much power to scum again and also too ez to not turn into anything meaningful). just kill the fuckers  but rly, any rule has their pros and cons and there’s no perfect solution, just have them be visible and known to all players.
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Mar 15, 2019 18:09
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flerp posted:yeah there’s been a lot of times when there’s been lurkers and everyone is like “well maybe the mod will sort it out” but then it doesnt and we get a game of “hey lets kill this lurker because he’s a big question mark” vs “lets not waste a lunch on somebody the mod might deal with”. explicit rules would be rly nice to not have those situations come out. also i hate lurker guns (too much power to scum imho) and freely lunchable lurkers (too much power to scum again and also too ez to not turn into anything meaningful). just kill the fuckers Most generally, I want the game to be a fully player-controlled experience except for extreme cases of necessity. I don’t feel comfortable having my subjective opinion or arbitrary standard overriding player agency, and I’ve yet to find a mechanic that balances those concerns comfortably.
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Mar 15, 2019 18:13
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Jonathan Fisk posted:Most generally, I want the game to be a fully player-controlled experience except for extreme cases of necessity. I don’t feel comfortable having my subjective opinion or arbitrary standard overriding player agency, and I’ve yet to find a mechanic that balances those concerns comfortably. thats a fair point, and that would be a nice thing to add to your op so players are aware of your expectations!
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Mar 15, 2019 18:19
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flerp posted:thats a fair point, and that would be a nice thing to add to your op so players are aware of your expectations!
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Mar 15, 2019 18:21
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Jonathan Fisk posted:I now understand that players have the expectation that going into any game in the current state of samafia there will be certain norms, including efforts made by the mod to finesse the game along, unless explicitly stated otherwise. I generally don’t have that expectation but I also haven’t played as much in recent years.
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Mar 15, 2019 18:23
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flerp posted:also i hate lurker guns boooooo
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Mar 15, 2019 18:23
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im glad we all agree 
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Mar 15, 2019 18:24
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nvm bif ruined it
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Mar 15, 2019 18:24
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The "postcount" thing is a benchmark I struggle with. Someone brought up earlier that it incentivizes poo poo posting and to some extent I agree with that. Conversely I have seen a "meaningful posts" benchmark but that is such a subjective term. Unfortunately I really have trouble thinking of any other usable benchmark. I think explicit rules and clarification are cool and good and that we have some good rulesets in the community that receive continuous feedback and improvement.
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Mar 15, 2019 18:36
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somber make a game or else
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Mar 15, 2019 19:05
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my rule for lurkers is to publicly shame them like that bitch pmush
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Mar 15, 2019 19:31
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Somber wants to wait on it, so I’ll be launching a small-mid size mostly vanilla open setup tonight. It’ll be tied to the game I just ran but you need not have played it to understand what’s going on.
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Mar 15, 2019 20:00
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I will play
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Mar 15, 2019 20:01
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Jonathan Fisk posted:Somber wants to wait on it, so I’ll be launching a small-mid size mostly vanilla open setup tonight. It’ll be tied to the game I just ran but you need not have played it to understand what’s going on. phew I was afraid i was going to have to make a game.
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Mar 15, 2019 20:05
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