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Its because the anime was aimed at fujoshis.
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Mar 18, 2019 00:39
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Axle_Stukov posted:The anime did it to such an extreme it just unceremoniously kills off like half the cast before the 5th day just so it doesn't have to waste time on characters not named Hibiki or Yamato.
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Mar 18, 2019 00:41
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The thing that gets me about the DS 2 anime is that, iirc, it was headed by the guy who did the Persona 4 anime, with Yu being the King of Comedy and having all these funny moments, so everyone was expecting Hibiki to be the weird lackadaisical funnyman he was always meant to be, and it didn't happen. It felt like Bizarro DS 2 and, frankly, I was betrayed. 
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Mar 18, 2019 00:42
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Didn't the DS2 anime kill off like literally everyone, including characters who couldn't die at all, and then undo it at the end?
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Mar 18, 2019 00:46
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Yeah, it was bad. The thing of it is, I do like the idea of Yamato having a thing for Hibiki just because it's weirdly endearing. Like he has literally no other context for bonding with people outside of work-related things, so to have this very talented dipshit come in, and to start liking him, and then feeling some kind of way about him, but he doesn't know what to do with that feeling or what it is, so he just assumes that "WOW. THIS PERSON IS REALLY COOL AND I WANT HIM TO WORK WITH ME." and then gets really heavy-handed and dramatic about how much he wants Hibiki to be around him. I don't know! It's cute! Yamato partly being really really weird about his emotions is great. Both of the DS games did a great job with the characters but I think I leaned towards the ones in 2 a bit more. The bonding events probably helped with that.
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Mar 18, 2019 01:04
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BaDandy posted:The thing that gets me about the DS 2 anime is that, iirc, it was headed by the guy who did the Persona 4 anime, with Yu being the King of Comedy and having all these funny moments, so everyone was expecting Hibiki to be the weird lackadaisical funnyman he was always meant to be, and it didn't happen. It felt like Bizarro DS 2 and, frankly, I was betrayed.
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Mar 18, 2019 02:41
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Say whatever else you want about the anime, but their version of the King's Game scene was comedy gold.
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Mar 18, 2019 15:50
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W.T. Fits posted:Say whatever else you want about the anime, but their version of the King's Game scene was comedy gold. Hanako got treated worlds better by P4A than the actual game.
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Mar 18, 2019 17:21
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And so another reason Otome and Keita exist is because they needed to even the numbers between the factions. And Jungo is dead so I have no idea who he was supposed to join. I think Anguished One is a fourth faction all to himself but I only got to Fate Rank 4 with him so I think I missed out on that. Oh well, he didn't seem like my thing anyway. Interesting character but even more Neutral than Daichi from what I could gather. Seemed to me he wanted us to reject Polaris instead of asking for its help. Although Polaris didn't seem like a YHVH figure except for being all powerful administrator of the world. Without the malice and capriciousness, I got no problem with a God ruling the world.
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Mar 19, 2019 02:13
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NikkolasKing posted:And so another reason Otome and Keita exist is because they needed to even the numbers between the factions. And Jungo is dead so I have no idea who he was supposed to join. He's actually Chaos.
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Mar 19, 2019 02:47
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Cleretic posted:This is absolutely how Neutral is generally taken; you're only bringing things back to the pre-game status quo, with at best some vague discussion about how maybe things can change now that we know the consequences. IV's a bit different in that regard just because of circumstances, but it's the exception there. NikkolasKing posted:The arguments against Law and Chaos, especially Law, tend to center on arguments about coercion and autonomy. "Sure people are happy and peaceful but they aren't free so what does it matter?" This argument never really flew with me because it seemed to me Neutral violates peoples' freedom, too. Who are you to kill their gods? SMTIVA is all about how tons of people sided with Merkabah and Lucifer. Where is their autonomy in your Neutral world?  I don't think it's about who the player is. It's a question on whether or not we should be governed by the now autonomous manifestations of our own unconsciousness.
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Mar 19, 2019 04:14
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Brought To You By posted:It's not even returning things to the pre-game status quo. The neutral ending of every game save Nocturne and SJ ends with the world as a bombed out and ruined husk of it's former self because of how law and Chaos went about fighting each other. So you have to pick up the pieces from the ashes. I think it's best summed up by Men in Black: "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals..."
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Mar 19, 2019 04:39
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Brought To You By posted:It's not even returning things to the pre-game status quo. The neutral ending of every game save Nocturne and SJ ends with the world as a bombed out and ruined husk of it's former self because of how law and Chaos went about fighting each other. So you have to pick up the pieces from the ashes. I mean, this is something that bugged me in DeSu 1 a lot. Demons are clearly sapient beings, no matter how they were created. Why is it okay to kill them and not humans? They have personalities and desires and wills of their own. I mean, fair enough if you oppose any monarch or autocrat, but I really don't see a problem with their being non-human. And I'm not sure what you mean by "I don't think it's about who the player is." To me, the endings reflect what you the player value most If you feel the reduction of suffering is the core of ethics, then you probably go Law. If you value freedom, you go Neutral. (I'm not sure why Chaos is associated with freedom)
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Mar 19, 2019 09:21
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Persona 3 and 4 did have multiple endings to be fair, and a real choice in 3 was "let the world end" P3's choice was well done honestly - in the bad ending, your memory is erased, death comes quickly and quietly but nobody knows and you and your friends just enjoy life until then. Sure everyone will eventually die - but how's that different from any other day? Memento Mori. P4: Do you give in to mob rule and instinct and execute someone without trial? It's more relevant today than it was back then even - the way someone online can have their life destroyed by a consensus train that doesn't listen to reason, and how it can feel good to dispense justice right away without trying to dig deeper. This one was a clear right/wrong answer but I liked the message of it. NikkolasKing posted:And I'm not sure what you mean by "I don't think it's about who the player is." To me, the endings reflect what you the player value most If you feel the reduction of suffering is the core of ethics, then you probably go Law. If you value freedom, you go Neutral. (I'm not sure why Chaos is associated with freedom) Chaos is Anarchy. Absolute Freedom to do what you want with no organized repercussion. In SMT games this also means people have total freedom to do what they want to you, and ends up with everyone killing each other. Neutral is usually "Hey we still need some form of society but we don't need Gods for it thanks"
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Mar 19, 2019 11:48
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THE AWESOME GHOST posted:Chaos is Anarchy. Absolute Freedom to do what you want with no organized repercussion. In SMT games this also means people have total freedom to do what they want to you, and ends up with everyone killing each other. The thing is, Chaos invokes the old Social Darwinism arguments. Animals, including humans, must fight and kill to survive and there is no other way. To resist this is to oppose the Law of Nature. Man is a wolf to mane taken as a mantra to live by. That's not freedom, that's saying we were all made a certain way and there is no overcoming it. How can there be freedom when you are a slave to your own inherent nature? Then there's the hierarchy element. Chaos is no different from Law in this regard, it's just they value a hierarchy of flux while Law prefers stratification. Only 1% enjoy freedom, everyone else is their underling. You theoretically have the right to challenge them but the point is you start in a position of oppression and limitation. I think Dagda recognized this and that's why he hated Lucifer. Whether it's the boot heel of the angels or the demons, makes no difference. There probably wouldn't be a worldwide Millennium Kingdom in a Chaos World but there would be a bunch of squabbling fiefdoms and tribes. NikkolasKing fucked around with this message at 13:06 on Mar 19, 2019 |
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Mar 19, 2019 12:42
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NikkolasKing posted:I mean, this is something that bugged me in DeSu 1 a lot. Demons are clearly sapient beings, no matter how they were created. Why is it okay to kill them and not humans? They have personalities and desires and wills of their own. I mean, fair enough if you oppose any monarch or autocrat, but I really don't see a problem with their being non-human. quote:And I'm not sure what you mean by "I don't think it's about who the player is." To me, the endings reflect what you the player value most If you feel the reduction of suffering is the core of ethics, then you probably go Law. If you value freedom, you go Neutral. (I'm not sure why Chaos is associated with freedom) As for why Chaos is associated with freedom, it's like Lucifer says in SMT1. He wants the cycle of destruction and rebirth to flourish and that can't happen under Law because law is destruction and stagnation through order. You could really say that Chaos represents Change and the upheaval of the current order for something new. It's one of the reasons I think Lucifer is always the Chaos rep in the mainline games, he's always going to be fighting against whatever form of YHVH is trying to control all creation. THE AWESOME GHOST posted:Persona 3 and 4 did have multiple endings to be fair, and a real choice in 3 was "let the world end"
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Mar 19, 2019 14:23
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Brought To You By posted:It's not that it's OK to do it because they are non-human, There's an entire game showing that humans and demons can live together. It's that demons and more specifically the God's among them are going about with destroying and warping reality to their own devices which needs to be stopped. Ah, fair enough. I agree with that. quote:As for why Chaos is associated with freedom, it's like Lucifer says in SMT1. He wants the cycle of destruction and rebirth to flourish and that can't happen under Law because law is destruction and stagnation through order. You could really say that Chaos represents Change and the upheaval of the current order for something new. It's one of the reasons I think Lucifer is always the Chaos rep in the mainline games, he's always going to be fighting against whatever form of YHVH is trying to control all creation. I think Change is a better way to put it, yeah. To me, one of the more brilliant things in SMTIV was pointing out how Law and Chaos are really quite alike. A Ring of Gaea person mentions how even if the Forces of Law wins, doesn't that just prove them (Chaos) right? The strong rule over the weaker. Meanwhile Tayama is supposed to be Law but he's everything Chaos values. He was a no-name Yakuza thug in the old world of laws and boundaries but in the ruined Tokyo he used his devious cunning and charisma to accumulate great power. He never would have been half of what he became if not for the anarchy. Anyone, through their own power, can become a king is what Chaos preaches and Tayama certainly lived up to that hype.
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Mar 19, 2019 15:47
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The initial Law faction in IV being the Yakuza, and Chaos being an organised religious cult was a cool switch of the normal expectations. It was one of the things that when I encountered it really got me interested in where it was going. That it proceeded to do gently caress all with that and end up just reverting "Law is angels" and "Chaos is Lucifer and Lilith" for the umpteen-millionth time is one of the many, many things wrong with it.
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Mar 19, 2019 16:07
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THE AWESOME GHOST posted:Persona 3 and 4 did have multiple endings to be fair, and a real choice in 3 was "let the world end" I feel like the execution of P3's choice could have been handled better. The month before the choice has scenes where your party members build up their courage and resolve to fight the concept of death itself, it's a group agreement that everyone will fight Nyx...aaaaaand none of that matters anyway because the game makes the MC alone make the choice anyway. Unlike P4's choice to shove Namatame in the TV, there's literally no good story reason why the P3 MC would even consider going for the bad ending other than to be a contrarian dick to the rest of SEES.
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Mar 19, 2019 16:47
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Also that part of the game is incredibly boring.
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Mar 19, 2019 16:57
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THE AWESOME GHOST posted:Persona 3 and 4 did have multiple endings to be fair, and a real choice in 3 was "let the world end" amigolupus posted:I feel like the execution of P3's choice could have been handled better. The month before the choice has scenes where your party members build up their courage and resolve to fight the concept of death itself, it's a group agreement that everyone will fight Nyx...aaaaaand none of that matters anyway because the game makes the MC alone make the choice anyway. Unlike P4's choice to shove Namatame in the TV, there's literally no good story reason why the P3 MC would even consider going for the bad ending other than to be a contrarian dick to the rest of SEES. I also actually like how P5 handles the choice in endings. By that point, you're already pretty clued in that the world is just inherently unfair and that justice isn't something you can achieve in any permanent capacity. So you kind of have a Lawful choice of making the world accept your justice and keeping your place as the shadowy arbiter of it all, or the more Chaotic option of letting go of any sense of control, actively destroying a divine being that would impose one, and giving humanity the chance to sink or swim on its own.
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Mar 19, 2019 16:59
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Earlier somebody said Yamato was Law but, well  He seems absolutely Chaos to me.
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Mar 20, 2019 15:41
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PMush Perfect posted:The thematic consistency in P4's endings is one of my favorite things about the game, honestly. Each layer requires that you reject clean and easy answers and keep digging into a messier truth. (And even if I don't really like Golden, I have to respect that the Accomplice ending requires you to actively choose to go in the other direction.) I just wish it didn't take quite so much trial-and-error to make the right choices for convincing them to not dunk Namatame into the TV. I've never met a single person who actually, intentionally wanted to dunk Namatame into the TV, but I sure have met a lot of people who did it accidentally.
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Mar 20, 2019 17:08
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NikkolasKing posted:Earlier somebody said Yamato was Law but, well Chaos that comes from groveling before a god is not Chaos at all.
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Mar 20, 2019 17:16
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I feel like because of the way the narrative is structured and the nature of the mediums involved, the anime handled the "Should we throw Namatame into the TV?" scene a lot better than the game did.
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Mar 20, 2019 17:17
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Hunt11 posted:Chaos that comes from groveling before a god is not Chaos at all. What, Lucifer doesn't have servants? Mem Aleph didn't have minions? Chaos still has people who are clearly in charge and control everyone else. You always side with them after all. In any event, how long is the new arc in Record Breaker? Is it as long as the "regular" game?
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Mar 20, 2019 17:21
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NikkolasKing posted:What, Lucifer doesn't have servants? Mem Aleph didn't have minions? Chaos still has people who are clearly in charge and control everyone else. You always side with them after all. Yamato's ending (and Ronaldo's for that matter) involves changing the way the human mind works so that they'll fit better into an existing system. He is still the closest to the usual SMT Chaos. No, it's a few days shorter.
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Mar 20, 2019 17:32
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MightyPretenders posted:Yamato's ending (and Ronaldo's for that matter) involves changing the way the human mind works so that they'll fit better into an existing system. He is still the closest to the usual SMT Chaos. So basically DS2 is like Nocturne where all Reasons would be seen as Law because you're working with YHVH's system.I did think Yamato reminded me of a much more fleshed out Chiaki. And that kinda sucks. I love this game and would be happy to play it for another week. Still, it looks like it's a proper story all its own and not just a small addition DS1's 8th Day.
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Mar 20, 2019 17:42
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W.T. Fits posted:I feel like because of the way the narrative is structured and the nature of the mediums involved, the anime handled the "Should we throw Namatame into the TV?" scene a lot better than the game did.
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Mar 20, 2019 19:09
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NikkolasKing posted:I love this game and would be happy to play it for another week. Still, it looks like it's a proper story all its own and not just a small addition DS1's 8th Day. Yeah, the new content is... Three? days, from memory.
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Mar 20, 2019 19:39
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PMush Perfect posted:Remind me of the differences? I really need to watch P4tA again. The biggest difference is that Yu himself just straight up grabs Namatame and tries to start shoving him into the TV before Yosuke and the others stop him and calm him down.
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Mar 20, 2019 20:48
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W.T. Fits posted:The biggest difference is that Yu himself just straight up grabs Namatame and tries to start shoving him into the TV before Yosuke and the others stop him and calm him down. Considering the circumstances at the time, this makes more sense than Naoto suddenly implying that the gang should ice the guy.
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Mar 20, 2019 21:20
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I remember a long time ago that DS2's factions were opposites. Like, it's chaos that tries to appear like law and law that appears like chaos
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Mar 20, 2019 21:38
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Drakenel posted:I remember a long time ago that DS2's factions were opposites. Like, it's chaos that tries to appear like law and law that appears like chaos Ronaldo leads a bunch of rioters with Yakuza and thugs among their ranks. But he's an ex-lawman and believes in equality and protecting the weak. If he has his way, every individual will be made to believe in working for the good of all. Yamato was born to be the leader of the government organization responsible for dealing with this eldritch horror situation, but uses the information his birth has granted him to alter the world - in particular, to eliminate the government he sees himself as a thankless pawn to. His contempt for incompetent underlings has given him a belief in survival of the fittest, and if he has his way, he'll end up erasing the concept of human empathy.
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Mar 21, 2019 02:17
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Yamato's plan of a meritocracy is unfortunately flawed. While the idea that everyone who is capable and talented will get what they deserve seems fair, that doesn't stop anyone from sabotaging someone else and looking better in comparison.
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Mar 21, 2019 03:33
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NikkolasKing posted:So basically DS2 is like Nocturne where all Reasons would be seen as Law because you're working with YHVH's system.I did think Yamato reminded me of a much more fleshed out Chiaki. Yeah, DeSu2's endings are very similar to Nocturne's in their broad structure, more so than pretty much any other MegaTen game. The additional arc in Record Breaker does its own thing that doesn't really map neatly to alignments either.
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Mar 21, 2019 03:50
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Mraagvpeine posted:Yamato's plan of a meritocracy is unfortunately flawed. While the idea that everyone who is capable and talented will get what they deserve seems fair, that doesn't stop anyone from sabotaging someone else and looking better in comparison.
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Mar 21, 2019 04:21
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Thuryl posted:Yeah, DeSu2's endings are very similar to Nocturne's in their broad structure, more so than pretty much any other MegaTen game. The additional arc in Record Breaker does its own thing that doesn't really map neatly to alignments either. Interesting. I was hoping there'd be more routes and endings. I got Yamato's. I was thinking of trying to get AO's but I didn't get the required Fate Rank with him so it was Yamato, Daichi or Ronaldo. Ronaldo is crazy and I don't trust Daichi to tie his shoes much less envision a new world order. But the new stuff says gently caress you and continues off the ending I didn't get. Oh well, I'm not really mad. I'm just excited to have more game to play.
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Mar 21, 2019 05:02
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NikkolasKing posted:Interesting. I was hoping there'd be more routes and endings. I got Yamato's. I was thinking of trying to get AO's but I didn't get the required Fate Rank with him so it was Yamato, Daichi or Ronaldo. Ronaldo is crazy and I don't trust Daichi to tie his shoes much less envision a new world order. If you want to know what the deal is with Daichi's ending: He's basically the path to both the "Freedom" and "Demon" ending equivalents. If you side with him and haven't done all the necessary events to come up with a sensible plan, he decides "let's just kill Polaris, what's the worst that can happen", and it turns out the worst that can happen is that the world is no longer being actively destroyed but the only part of it that's left is a small part of Tokyo surrounded by an endless ocean. If you did do the necessary events, his plan is instead "let's beat up Polaris until it agrees to restore the world to the way it was before everything got destroyed", which it does, but with no guarantee that the exact same thing won't happen again. If you also got every human character to at least Fate Rank 4, there's a little bit of bonus dialogue where it's implied you retain some memories of what happened during the game and things might turn out differently this time around as a result. Also, the new arc in Record Breaker doesn't start from any particular ending. It's more of a Deus Ex: Invisible War thing where its starting point is basically a mashup of multiple different endings from the original game. Thuryl fucked around with this message at 05:24 on Mar 21, 2019 |
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Mar 21, 2019 05:19
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Thuryl posted:If you want to know what the deal is with Daichi's ending: Thank you, that sounds pretty neat. Is it hard to get the good Daichi ending? Also I forgot to say on here but Fumi, Airi, Joe and Io were my favorite characters and it's so strange Airi joins up with Ronaldo when it was Ronaldo's goons who murdered Jungo. Also these characters have the best faces  
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Mar 21, 2019 05:55
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