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I’ve been interviewing with a company I’m very interested in working for, but I have a great BATNA in my current position. I am laid well and have amazing work-life-balance (flexible hours, wfh ~1/3 of the time and walk about a mile when I have to go in), but I would like to feel more fulfilled and challenged at work. The new job is a big relocation away from family support (including giving up free part time child care from my mother in law). Although I _think_ I’d be happier in this job it’s still a risk, and it’d be nice to have a big chunk of change to offset that risk. The company never asked my current salary, and I never provided a salary expectation, but the offer came in a bit less (~9%) than my current base. It’s about 5% below the average for this exact position at this company on Glassdoor (of only six reported), and 10% lower than a recent offer I turned down (based on fit, not salary). The rest of the benefits are somewhat of a wash. Bonus “target” is 15% where my current is 0%, 401k match gets worse but still good (7% to 4%), and state income tax goes away. The signing bonus probably covers the move but barely, and not cost or time to sell our house. My gut says I can negotiate up to approximately the same salary I’m getting now, but before doing that I guess I need to decide if I’d take the job for break-even or not. It’s very tempting, but a little disappointing in that it’d have been nice to get a number that would make it an obvious good move. My dream was enough for my spouse to work remote half-time for a year while looking for a new job, but the offer is about 30% too low for that. The company is a tech/consulting company with about 100 employees and plans to grow to 200 over the next 2-3 years. This is kind of rambling, but feels good to put into writing. Can any of you internet strangers offer some advice on how to proceed? E: I guess if I have a specific question it’s this: is it crazy to ask for 30% increase in base pay, or should I just walk away since we’re probably just too far apart? Sobriquet fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Feb 9, 2019 |
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Feb 9, 2019 22:01
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Ask for a 45% increase from their offer.
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Feb 9, 2019 22:20
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If the alternative is to walk away then you lose nothing by asking.
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Feb 9, 2019 22:22
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First you need to decide exactly how much you want this job. You need to put a number on it. Your post is the totality of what I know about the situation. Based on that it sounds to me like you really don't want to make such a move for no extra money. I don't blame you. I wouldn't either. I'm not you and you have to make up your own mind. But I'll say that if it were me I would sincerely tell them, I am very enthusiastic about joining your team, but there is just no way I can accept your offer. I will need (offer+30%) to make it work. And draw a hard line at (offer+20%, maybe 15%) and walk away if they don't meet it. Would jumping to the new role meaningfully improve your medium-term career prospects? Is it significantly likelier if you jump now that you'll be able to move up to a better job in 3 years, 5 years? Also the 401k match dropping from 7% to 4% would be a pretty loving big deal to me. Like, it's a difference of a couple thousand bucks a year now, which is meaningful, but it's much worse than that over time. Eric the Mauve fucked around with this message at 23:02 on Feb 9, 2019 |
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Feb 9, 2019 23:00
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Sobriquet posted:I’ve been interviewing with a company I’m very interested in working for, but I have a great BATNA in my current position. I am laid well and have amazing work-life-balance (flexible hours, wfh ~1/3 of the time and walk about a mile when I have to go in), but I would like to feel more fulfilled and challenged at work. The new job is a big relocation away from family support (including giving up free part time child care from my mother in law). Although I _think_ I’d be happier in this job it’s still a risk, and it’d be nice to have a big chunk of change to offset that risk. Why would you want this job? You are taking a big pay cut losing family support, and likely a hit to your quality of life. All of that in exchange to feel challenged at your job? You can feel challenged at home with hobbies
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Feb 9, 2019 23:20
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Yeah asking for the big raise that lets you live the dream will both potentially get you paid a lot more and help develop the habit of asking for what you really want, which will pay off repeatedly throughout your life! Do it. I don't think you'll get 30% by asking for 30%, but you'll get something - you gotta ask for more than that if you want a chance at them settling there. It's always hard to say what the max you can ask for is, a lot comes down to the personality of who you're negotiating with and how they perceive you
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Feb 10, 2019 00:07
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Thanks everyone. I don’t want to get too E/N in here and maybe I should stop off in the “career advice” thread but suffice to say I’d rather have this job than mine. Yet, in evaluating the offer I’m realizing exactly how lucky I am in my current situation, so while I want a new job I don’t want to undervalue the benefits of the one I have and make change for the sake of change. I think the advice boils down to two things: 1) Come up with a figure I’d definitely accept, and ask for it (or a little higher) even if it feels like asking a lot. 2) Know the minimum I’ll accept and walk away if they don’t hit it. This seems harder when emotions and unknowable future prospects play in, but I think it’s the only way to not get suckered.
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Feb 10, 2019 02:41
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rscott posted:Hi negotiation thread! Things are going swimmingly at work since I last posted, so swimmingly in fact that my boss thinks I should apply for the QA manager position (head of quality for the entire business unit) that is going to open up in a few months. From what she told me, they want to hire internally if possible, and it would between myself and my old boss who said he doesn't want the job because of all the upcoming audit bullshit that's likely to hit us this spring, and all the crap that needs to change now that we've come under new management. I turned the interview down for this position because it's going to be a huge shitstorm basically *right* after the current QA manager departs, all of the most senior quality inspectors are preparing exit strategies because of how mismanaged the department has been for the last few years. It's the main reason why I moved out of quality to be a buyer full time, even though I still do a bunch of quality adjacent stuff on the side. I've been killing it lately, I negotiated (by a being a nice guy who established a positive rapport with a processing company because we had basically no leverage as a company) a 70% reduction in expedite fees for some parts we are way behind on, the VP of SCM (I guess my new boss in a way) for the much larger company that we were merged with said he couldn't have gotten a better rate himself given the circumstances and our departing CFO said I was a visionary and to not let anyone else tell me different. I don't really tell people what to do, but my suggestions carry a lot of weight with people who do tell people what to do. Problem is, I'm still making like 40% less than the next lowest paid buyer (for purchased hardware which is definitely a different game than what I do but I'm the only buyer who's contributing to daily management meetings in constructive way) due to the fact that I started out making $10/hr when I started working here almost 10 years ago. I've basically said, "I need more money or I'm going to look for a new job" twice in the last ~18 months, and received about 10% bumps in pay, plus another ~10% bump in pay in the middle of those two demands when I took the promotion into my current nominal role, a total of about 12k/year. I told my current immediate boss I needed a big raise given the increase in my scope of responsibilities in the last 6 months, my performance and my pay relative to my peers. She asked me to name a number to take to the GM (who pulled me aside to tell me I was doing a fantastic job a couple of weeks ago) and I told her 35%/17k and I'm really wondering if I didn't lowball myself again. Should I have started with 50% or more? I know they've been handing out raises like candy to get key personnel to stay and even with 35% I'm going to be at the lower end of what I'm responsible for, and the person making the decision on this wage increase is not the same person as the last three but I really feel like I'm pushing my luck to jump 80% in two years at the same company as it is.
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Feb 10, 2019 03:14
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rscott posted:I turned the interview down for this position because it's going to be a huge shitstorm basically *right* after the current QA manager departs, all of the most senior quality inspectors are preparing exit strategies because of how mismanaged the department has been for the last few years. It's the main reason why I moved out of quality to be a buyer full time, even though I still do a bunch of quality adjacent stuff on the side. I've been killing it lately, I negotiated (by a being a nice guy who established a positive rapport with a processing company because we had basically no leverage as a company) a 70% reduction in expedite fees for some parts we are way behind on, the VP of SCM (I guess my new boss in a way) for the much larger company that we were merged with said he couldn't have gotten a better rate himself given the circumstances and our departing CFO said I was a visionary and to not let anyone else tell me different. I don't really tell people what to do, but my suggestions carry a lot of weight with people who do tell people what to do. You should have said a number way bigger than whatever the next person in your position is making. Preferably with another offer in hand
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Feb 10, 2019 03:23
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rscott posted:I turned the interview down for this position because it's going to be a huge shitstorm basically *right* after the current QA manager departs, all of the most senior quality inspectors are preparing exit strategies because of how mismanaged the department has been for the last few years. It's the main reason why I moved out of quality to be a buyer full time, even though I still do a bunch of quality adjacent stuff on the side. I've been killing it lately, I negotiated (by a being a nice guy who established a positive rapport with a processing company because we had basically no leverage as a company) a 70% reduction in expedite fees for some parts we are way behind on, the VP of SCM (I guess my new boss in a way) for the much larger company that we were merged with said he couldn't have gotten a better rate himself given the circumstances and our departing CFO said I was a visionary and to not let anyone else tell me different. I don't really tell people what to do, but my suggestions carry a lot of weight with people who do tell people what to do.
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Feb 10, 2019 03:34
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:Please interview anywhere else and just get another number, any other number. Threatening to interview is silly - you get a vague mark of disloyalty without the upside of another job offer to go with it. Interview before worrying about your current company once the offer is in hand. I know change is a big deal but you gotta feel what it actually is to be offered a new job for a bunch more money.
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Feb 10, 2019 03:44
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Sorry one more question. I think it’s kind of standard to see language in the offer or informal offer to the effect of “we don’t lowball with our offer like other companies, since we thing negotiating starts the relationship on the wrong foot.” Any suggestions for countering this? For example “I appreciate that your offer is in good faith, but...” Or should I just not address it in my counter offer? Does the strategy differ depending on how much more I’m asking for?
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Feb 10, 2019 05:45
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You should just totally ignore that because "on the wrong foot" means "letting you think you're allowed to have a spine"
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Feb 10, 2019 06:32
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Yeah, if a company ever said "we think negotiation starts the relationship off on the wrong foot" I would run away as fast as I could. Negotiation is something which happens in healthy relationships between equals. "We think negotiation starts the relationship off on the wrong foot" translates to "we're looking for people who we can take advantage of".
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Feb 10, 2019 06:45
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fantastic in plastic posted:Yeah, if a company ever said "we think negotiation starts the relationship off on the wrong foot" I would run away as fast as I could. Negotiation is something which happens in healthy relationships between equals. "We think negotiation starts the relationship off on the wrong foot" translates to "we're looking for people who we can take advantage of".
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Feb 10, 2019 07:58
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Thanks - that’s not their exact wording but the intent (discourage negotiation) is pretty clear to me. I’ll send them a counter but signs are adding up that this just isn’t the right fit I’m hoping for. It’s too bad, since the interview seemed to go well for all parties, but I have to look at it as their loss!
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Feb 10, 2019 13:54
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Sobriquet posted:Sorry one more question. I think it’s kind of standard to see language in the offer or informal offer to the effect of “we don’t lowball with our offer like other companies, since we thing negotiating starts the relationship on the wrong foot.”
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Feb 10, 2019 22:02
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Imminent offer status update! Apparently they love me but they now want to hire me as an engineer instead of a senior engineer. Apparently they want people wit a few more years experience for senior level positions. My feeling is that this is a pretty blatent attempt to get me to ratchet down salary expectations. They tried to get me to cough up my current salary "so we get a sense of expectations", but of course I stonewalled on that. My sense is that this butts right up against the definition of negotiating in bad faith. Plan is still to keep being cheerful and accommodating until they cough up an offer, then get some practice negotiating.
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Feb 11, 2019 20:03
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FWIW at my work (just about always looking for devs), 90% of the people hired on in the last year all started as Senior Engineers even when they had questionable levels of experience. Gotta bribe people when there is a shortage of bodies
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Feb 11, 2019 21:02
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Welp, I played hardball and they took their ball and went home. They came in 15k under where the recruiter had sold me out, with an extra starting week vacation that I’d asked for previously. I told ‘em 5k more would get us to yes, or else I would need the weekend to think about it. 12 hours later they had “re-evaluated” and withdrawn the offer. On one hand, I’m proud of myself for not letting myself get jerked around and asking for what I think I’m worth. On the other, I suppose I overplayed my hand - I was definitely their first choice, but I overestimated how much that meant. Oh well.
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Feb 16, 2019 04:24
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and nothing of value was lost
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Feb 16, 2019 04:31
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Assuming we're talking about a salary in the typical for posters here range, 15k under a target seems like a walk away unless you've got other reasons to need that job.
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Feb 16, 2019 06:10
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Not a Children posted:Welp, I played hardball and they took their ball and went home. They came in 15k under where the recruiter had sold me out, with an extra starting week vacation that I’d asked for previously. I told ‘em 5k more would get us to yes, or else I would need the weekend to think about it. 12 hours later they had “re-evaluated” and withdrawn the offer. Nope. This is a lovely company and you played it right. You weren't their first choice. Filling the role as cheaply as possible was their first choice.
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Feb 16, 2019 14:46
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Dodged a bullet. If they are playing hardball when trying to attract people, they’re probably even shittier when trying to retain them. You just saved yourself from no raises ever while working for these assholes.
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Feb 16, 2019 22:09
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Not a Children posted:Welp, I played hardball and they took their ball and went home. They came in 15k under where the recruiter had sold me out, with an extra starting week vacation that I’d asked for previously. I told ‘em 5k more would get us to yes, or else I would need the weekend to think about it. 12 hours later they had “re-evaluated” and withdrawn the offer. I’m no expert but gently caress them. Pulling a deal off the table when someone has the balls to negotiate shows you exactly what your future would’ve been. Unless you’re unemployed it’s a good thing.
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Feb 18, 2019 05:26
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Not a Children posted:Welp, I played hardball and they took their ball and went home. They came in 15k under where the recruiter had sold me out, with an extra starting week vacation that I’d asked for previously. I told ‘em 5k more would get us to yes, or else I would need the weekend to think about it. 12 hours later they had “re-evaluated” and withdrawn the offer. Yeah everyone else is right- assuming you have a strong skillset you just dodged a bottom feeder
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Feb 18, 2019 08:16
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Thanks all. I’m a bit sad because it seemed like interesting work but I can move forward confidently knowing that my future there would have been full of similar jerking around. I still have a great job now that affords me lots of flexibility - I’ve turned down higher offers for similar reasons, so I’m happy to say that my BATNA is tested, intact, and stable.
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Feb 19, 2019 01:15
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Hi folks, I got an email prior to an onsite interview at Microsoft asking about salary expectations. I know what the average salary for this job is there and am reasonably happy with that number. What's a good response to this sort of question? And I am sorry if this has been beaten to death. Thanks.
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Mar 16, 2019 00:39
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pokie posted:Hi folks, I got an email prior to an onsite interview at Microsoft asking about salary expectations. I know what the average salary for this job is there and am reasonably happy with that number. “It depends on the rest of the compensation package” and have them give you an offer that contains salary pto and other benefit details. Negotiate up from there.
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Mar 16, 2019 02:19
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Tell them that yes, you expect a salary.
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Mar 16, 2019 02:20
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Tetramin posted:“It depends on the rest of the compensation package” and have them give you an offer that contains salary pto and other benefit details. Negotiate up from there. Thanks, I did that. It's a little weird that they chose to broach this subject between a technical phone screen and an onsite meeting, but whatever.
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Mar 16, 2019 04:15
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I hope this is the right place to ask, but if not, please let me know. I’ve been in my current job for almost 2 years now. When I was hired, I negotiated for my pay and got a tiny bit more, with the HR person telling me that every 6 months I would get a raise. He said that the raises would be significant for a while until I was at the same pay level as my peers in the company. Well, they weren’t significant at all and the HR guy no longer even works for our division. The largest raise I got was in January for an extra $1,000 a year. This was after I complained to one of my 2 bosses about what I was promised coming into the company. Yesterday there was a big issue with something that happened at work. It happened at night. Typically, people who work my type of job for other employers have to work nights and weekends. Part of the reason I took this job is because it’s a 9-5 no weekends job. Now my bosses are saying we have to start scheduling ourselves nights and weekends. I just feel like they don’t pay me enough to do that. Is now a good time to ask for a raise given all of the information above? I just want to make sure I’m not going to piss my bosses off.
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Mar 21, 2019 09:19
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I should clarify that the $1,000 raise is per year.
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Mar 21, 2019 12:46
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You got played like a piano, my friend. Live and learn. In the near term, there's no avoiding the fact that if you refuse, you will shortly be fired. That said, hell yes I would tell them to pound sand, because I wouldn't want to work for them in any case. But your situation is different from mine. I will just say that if your current circumstances are such that for practical purposes they own you, (1) they know that and will exploit it to the max, and (2) you should do whatever the hell it takes to change that ASAP.
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Mar 21, 2019 14:31
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Start interviewing. Fling out 5 resumes a day. Leave. If you stay you will be exploited. That's all there is to it.
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Mar 21, 2019 14:35
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You probably aren't the only person being impacted like this. See if you can push back as a group. They might hold off on this long enough for you to seek employment elsewhere.
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Mar 21, 2019 14:55
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Well I’m glad that I’m not overreacting. As far as leaving, I can’t at the moment due to my health insurance being covered by my work and going through fertility issues. The plan always has been to look for a new job and hopefully have one in place by the time my maternity leave is over. I will be asking for a raise in the meantime.
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Mar 21, 2019 15:35
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Bloody Cat Farm posted:Well I’m glad that I’m not overreacting. As far as leaving, I can’t at the moment due to my health insurance being covered by my work and going through fertility issues. The plan always has been to look for a new job and hopefully have one in place by the time my maternity leave is over. If you have something in writing from HR about raises, that might be helpful. If you don't, you're SOL -- I had an issue where the HR person didn't remember they had promised me a 6month review with possibility of a raise and it was the same person. I had it in writing so I was able to still get it, but had to prove it had been promised.
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Mar 21, 2019 15:49
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Zauper posted:If you have something in writing from HR about raises, that might be helpful. Yeah that sucks. I don’t have written proof. The same thing was told to another guy who started at the same time as I did. I could have him say that he was told the same thing, except he left the company. Ugh. This whole thing is frustrating.
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Mar 21, 2019 15:50
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Bloody Cat Farm posted:Well I’m glad that I’m not overreacting. As far as leaving, I can’t at the moment due to my health insurance being covered by my work and going through fertility issues. The plan always has been to look for a new job and hopefully have one in place by the time my maternity leave is over.
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Mar 21, 2019 15:53
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