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Jeza posted:I've always found it pretty interesting how relatively pro-gun people locate the root of American gun violence to violence itself rather than guns. It's a point I can understand and get on board with in some ways, but the way they treat controlling the availability of guns as a completely impossible task, yet somehow addressing all mental illness and violence as somehow more achievable confuses the gently caress out of me. It's confusing because most of the arguments are insincere. In the US the pro gun party is also the one that actively reduces public access to things like mental health treatment.
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Mar 18, 2019 12:54
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Looks like another mass shooting in the Netherlands. Another country with strong gun control. loving 4chan.
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Mar 18, 2019 13:02
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sean10mm posted:It's confusing because most of the arguments are insincere. In the US the pro gun party is also the one that actively reduces public access to things like mental health treatment. They also seem to fall back a lot on “well no country ‘similar to the US’ has ever had successful gun control,” which reminds me quite a bit of people who say UHC is impossible in the US because It Is Too Different. It’s also an impossible-to-beat truism because they is no suitably US-ish country. European nations? Too geographically small and racially homogenous! Canada or Australia? Not enough people! China or Russia? Too poor to count! Japan? Well duh, they’re Japan, not normal humans! To some group of people, adapting tried-and-true developed country solutions to american problems is just impossible because of some hosed-up american exceptionalism.
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Mar 18, 2019 13:42
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Jeza posted:I've always found it pretty interesting how relatively pro-gun people locate the root of American gun violence to violence itself rather than guns. It's a point I can understand and get on board with in some ways, but the way they treat controlling the availability of guns as a completely impossible task, yet somehow addressing all mental illness and violence as somehow more achievable confuses the gently caress out of me. The systematic castration of all newborn American males ought to curb the inherent agressivity within the race. I expect that within a couple generations the issue should be resolved.
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Mar 19, 2019 00:04
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Flowers For Algeria posted:The systematic castration of all newborn American males ought to curb the inherent agressivity within the race. I expect that within a couple generations the issue should be resolved. I heard they've been cutting off the dicks of most new-borns for decades now in the US? e: Oh poo poo 
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Mar 19, 2019 00:21
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Flowers For Algeria posted:The systematic castration of all newborn American males ought to curb the inherent agressivity within the race. I expect that within a couple generations the issue should be resolved. You can probably cause the same result by just doing it to the white ones, given the stats.
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Mar 19, 2019 01:15
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Flowers For Algeria posted:The systematic castration of all newborn American males ought to curb the inherent agressivity within the race. I expect that within a couple generations the issue should be resolved. I was thinking about mandatory abortion of all male fetuses if the male/female ratio of the mother's current children is greater than 1, to emulate the historic human sex ratios due to male casualties in wars.
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Mar 19, 2019 01:25
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Most perpetrators of violence are men and most victims are their domestic partners. So if you want to reduce the number of men obviously the best way to do it is to encourage both gun ownership and homosexual relationships. The Greeks had the right plan all along they were just five thousand years early.
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Mar 19, 2019 05:30
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Jaxyon posted:You can probably cause the same result by just doing it to the white ones, given the stats. Hmm, citing race and crime stats, that may lead you down some dark roads.
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Mar 19, 2019 05:55
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ate poo poo on live tv posted:Hmm, citing race and crime stats, that may lead you down some dark roads. Yeah then we might have a conversation about how racist the US justice system is against everyone except whites. Also do you mean "dark" as bad?
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Mar 19, 2019 18:24
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https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1108550411194167296
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Mar 21, 2019 13:26
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They'll be doing a buyback, but I hope most NZ gun owners do the right thing and refuse to take money when they turn their guns in
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Mar 21, 2019 13:31
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Gripweed posted:They'll be doing a buyback, but I hope most NZ gun owners do the right thing and refuse to take money when they turn their guns in Why is refusing to take money the right thing?
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Mar 21, 2019 13:33
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zapplez posted:Why is refusing to take money the right thing? Because that money could be better spent on things like social programs, or even just a tax cut. The gun buyback program is basically the taxpayers of NZ paying a tribute to NZ gun owners in order to reduce the number of mass shootings.
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Mar 21, 2019 13:39
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A gun buyback is a social program.
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Mar 21, 2019 13:47
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Apollodorus posted:A gun buyback is a social program. Yeah, it's a sad fact that some gun owners would only be willing to do their part to reduce the supply of guns in their country and reduce the chances of a tragedy like this happening again if there is some financial reward from them. I hope New Zealand gun owners, on the whole, won't be that mercenary. But some will and the money is a small price to pay to get the guns out of their hands.
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Mar 21, 2019 13:56
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gun control is cool and all but if you think it would be applied equally you need to get your head examined. Democrats don't have the nuts to ban guns while Republicans wouldn't hesitate for a second to disarm everyone that lives near a city while leaving good ol country boys alone with their arsenal There are a lot of adjacent issues to gun control that need to be solved before we can give the US a legal and total monopoly on violence. Even supposed leftist bastions like NYC, Cali, and Portland have dogshit cops. It's been less than a 100 years since the police burned down all the black businesses in Tulsa Oklahoma by dropping firebombs from biplanes. Its been about 120 years since the right pulled off a literal loving coup in Wilington NC and forced the black and white leftwing politicians to resign on gun point before sending them out of state in a railroad under armed guard No matter what gun control laws, they have to be enforced by an increasingly militant far right police force that is being infiltrated by white supremacists. Imagine really strict gun control laws with trumpf appointing ted nugent to head the ATF. PookBear fucked around with this message at 14:01 on Mar 21, 2019 |
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Mar 21, 2019 13:59
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qkkl posted:Because that money could be better spent on things like social programs, or even just a tax cut. The gun buyback program is basically the taxpayers of NZ paying a tribute to NZ gun owners in order to reduce the number of mass shootings. If the government is confiscating your property that you bought legally then you should be reimbursed. Like if California banned any diesel passenger cars when you were able to purchase them legally last year, they absolutely should have to give you the ten grand for you VW.
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Mar 21, 2019 14:18
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If I buy a dumb toy and it gets banned I get nothing for it and an assault rifle is the dumbest toy.
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Mar 21, 2019 14:21
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JBP posted:If I buy a dumb toy and it gets banned I get nothing for it and an assault rifle is the dumbest toy. Hmm, makes me think of a fraud scheme where a gun maker makes a new gun that is technically legal but is so dangerous that it will obviously be banned quickly. The gun costs $1000 to make, but the gun maker charges $5 million per gun. The C-level executives of the gun company proceed to buy $1 billion worth of the guns. Lawmakers quickly ban the gun and initiate a gun buyback program. The C-level executives of the gun company sell the guns to the government at $5 million a pop and retire to Luxembourg.
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Mar 21, 2019 15:10
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45 ACP CURES NAZIS posted:gun control is cool and all but if you think it would be applied equally you need to get your head examined. Democrats don't have the nuts to ban guns while Republicans wouldn't hesitate for a second to disarm everyone that lives near a city while leaving good ol country boys alone with their arsenal reaaaaally struggling to understand how someone could look at the Tulsa Race Riot and think: You know what would have improved this situation? More Guns!
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Mar 21, 2019 16:08
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Squalid posted:reaaaaally struggling to understand how someone could look at the Tulsa Race Riot and think: You know what would have improved this situation? More Guns!
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Mar 21, 2019 16:10
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Squalid posted:reaaaaally struggling to understand how someone could look at the Tulsa Race Riot and think: You know what would have improved this situation? More Guns! The Battle of Blair mountain is, of course, the counterpoint to that line of thinking. The striking miners were armed and as a result the loving US Military got planes and bombed the poo poo out of them at the behest of the "captains of industry". Oh and the whole thing started because of a shitheaded anti-union sheriff who desperately wanted to end unionization attempts via a river of blood.
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Mar 21, 2019 17:47
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45 ACP CURES NAZIS posted:There are a lot of adjacent issues to gun control that need to be solved before we can give the US a legal and total monopoly on violence. Even supposed leftist bastions like NYC, Cali, and Portland have dogshit cops. It's been less than a 100 years since the police burned down all the black businesses in Tulsa Oklahoma by dropping firebombs from biplanes. Its been about 120 years since the right pulled off a literal loving coup in Wilington NC and forced the black and white leftwing politicians to resign on gun point before sending them out of state in a railroad under armed guard These are all examples of situations where guns didn't keep the good guys from losing anyway. Angry_Ed posted:The Battle of Blair mountain is, of course, the counterpoint to that line of thinking. The striking miners were armed and as a result the loving US Military got planes and bombed the poo poo out of them at the behest of the "captains of industry". Oh and the whole thing started because of a shitheaded anti-union sheriff who desperately wanted to end unionization attempts via a river of blood. Exactly. Even if workers or African Americans or whoever outgun the local police, they're not stopping the bombers that come next.
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Mar 21, 2019 17:57
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"America is really racist" is not a reason to ignore gun control. It's a reason to do it better than we have in the past. America IS racist, and that applies to everything. Every law we make will benefit whites and hurt minorities. Not making good gun laws will also hurt minorities more than whites. Being a gun owner and openly carrying didn't save Philando Castille and cops will shoot you if you have a toy train, let alone a gun. The answer is disarming police.
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Mar 21, 2019 18:11
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zapplez posted:If the government is confiscating your property that you bought legally then you should be reimbursed. Legally, I think y'all are in agreement. They're making a moral argument about accepting the money, and what it means about the gun owner's views.
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Mar 21, 2019 18:14
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Ohio is an open carry state, and the cops walked up and shot John Crawford in a Walmart for holding a BB gun that he intended to purchase. The idea that unregulated gun ownership is a benefit to minorities in insane, lack of gun laws don't stop the police from murdering you anyway.
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Mar 21, 2019 18:15
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45 ACP CURES NAZIS posted:There are a lot of adjacent issues to gun control that need to be solved before Nope. full stop, not having that bullshit. We can absolutely do more than one thing at a time, let's remove as many guns as possible from the world (obviously from the police first) while we work on all of those "adjacent issues" that conveniently always prevent gun control from happening.
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Mar 21, 2019 18:20
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VitalSigns posted:The idea that unregulated gun ownership is a benefit to minorities in insane Yeah it's just an attempt of gun owners to try to use minorities, so they can keep their toys. i support leftist gun clubs, but it's not a replacement for gun control.
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Mar 21, 2019 18:21
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WampaLord posted:Nope. full stop, not having that bullshit. We can absolutely do more than one thing at a time, let's remove as many guns as possible from the world (obviously from the police first) while we work on all of those "adjacent issues" that conveniently always prevent gun control from happening. It's extra hilarious that you think any gun control scheme is going to do anything about the militarization of police. Even if the left gets it's most fever dream version of gun control enacted, all you're going to do is leave the police with a monopoly on force. That will surely solve all the social ills that dopey D&D posters are always whining about
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Mar 21, 2019 18:29
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JBP posted:If I buy a dumb toy and it gets banned I get nothing for it and an assault rifle is the dumbest toy. Actually when it gets banned it retroactively becomes a great investment.
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Mar 21, 2019 18:29
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youre dick posted:It's extra hilarious that you think any gun control scheme is going to do anything about the militarization of police. Even if the left gets it's most fever dream version of gun control enacted, all you're going to do is leave the police with a monopoly on force. That will surely solve all the social ills that dopey D&D posters are always whining about Oh, so it's going to be hard to do? Might as well give up then, nothing that's hard to do is worth doing.  What's the point of this "you can't solve the problem" nihilism? Just a coping strategy?
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Mar 21, 2019 18:30
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Angry_Ed posted:The Battle of Blair mountain is, of course, the counterpoint to that line of thinking. The striking miners were armed and as a result the loving US Military got planes and bombed the poo poo out of them at the behest of the "captains of industry". Oh and the whole thing started because of a shitheaded anti-union sheriff who desperately wanted to end unionization attempts via a river of blood. Yeah. I mean looking at what happened in Tulsa it seems obvious to me civilian firearms took took a situation that had begun to deescalate as the white lynch mob was stymied by the police, and turned it into a massive running street battle. Its likely there still would have been a brawl, but it wouldn't have taken the apocalyptic turn it did in real history. Without guns in the situation, the police could have actually used crowd control tactics to disperse the riot, but facing a massive gunfight they were essentially helpless. If you expect civilian gun ownership to protect communities from violence you need to consider the security dilemma. If we have two conflicting groups and one begins to arm itself, this renders the position of the other group insecure. To guarantee their own safety, they must arm themselves better than their opponents, so they will necessary try to match and exceed their enemies. Unchecked this process doesn't actually protect anyone from violence, it just increases the stakes of conflict. A riot with bats and knives is much less deadly than one with handguns, which is much less dangerous than a fight with technicals and rpgs. If the groups are nations and states this process leads to nuclear arms races. With civilian groups it means the richer and more populous side will necessarily be at an advantage. You can't eliminate the threat of conflict, but we can reduce the stakes. Better to have confrontations be with fists than bullets.
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Mar 21, 2019 18:39
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youre dick posted:It's extra hilarious that you think any gun control scheme is going to do anything about the militarization of police. Even if the left gets it's most fever dream version of gun control enacted, all you're going to do is leave the police with a monopoly on force. That will surely solve all the social ills that dopey D&D posters are always whining about Literally any gun control is currently hilarious because gun owners in the US are suckers. But obviously any smart gun control needs to address police.
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Mar 21, 2019 18:46
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Replace the police and military with loyal robots. Confiscate whatever you want without questioning the race motives of the enforcement. If you think AI can be racist then let minorities program the robots. You think I’m joking until you find yourself on a self driving Tesla detention bus.
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Mar 21, 2019 19:41
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youre dick posted:It's extra hilarious that you think any gun control scheme is going to do anything about the militarization of police. Even if the left gets it's most fever dream version of gun control enacted, all you're going to do is leave the police with a monopoly on force. That will surely solve all the social ills that dopey D&D posters are always whining about Cops already have a monopoly on force, if they see a black guy holding a gun they don't think "ahh, this fellow is my peer in violence, I shall let him pass lest I risk my own person in a duel between equals!" they loving shoot him. And if a group of black people arm themselves, such as the Black Panthers did, the cops just shoot them too. Civilian gun ownership and the militarization of police are separate issues. An armed populace does not serve as a check on police powers.
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Mar 21, 2019 20:28
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youre dick posted:It's extra hilarious that you think any gun control scheme is going to do anything about the militarization of police. Even if the left gets it's most fever dream version of gun control enacted, all you're going to do is leave the police with a monopoly on force. That will surely solve all the social ills that dopey D&D posters are always whining about this is my point. I'm not saying im against gun control but god drat it needs to happen at least at the same time that police reform happens
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Mar 21, 2019 22:10
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Squalid posted:
Ok lets say tomorrow Trump sighs a law banning all guns. Who do you think the police are going to disarm?
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Mar 21, 2019 22:11
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45 ACP CURES NAZIS posted:this is my point. I'm not saying im against gun control but god drat it needs to happen at least at the same time that police reform happens This is nonsense. We have incredibly lax gun laws yet police are still murdering people with complete impunity.
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Mar 21, 2019 22:24
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45 ACP CURES NAZIS posted:Ok lets say tomorrow Trump sighs a law banning all guns. Who do you think the police are going to disarm? This is an unanswerable hypothetical as phrased as the outcome of a gun ban would depend heavily on the specifics of the law and how enforcement is handled, with there likely to be large variation between states. I think you are arguing a hypothetical Trump gun ban would be targeted at minorities, but this is an incomprehensible hypothetical to start with because I can't imagine any sequence of events that could lead Trump or the modern Republican party supporting and enacting a gun ban. For the record, I don't believe a total gun ban is a good idea or necessary. The private arsenal of 50 year old libertarians is mostly just a threat to the owner. I believe the most effective way to prevent gun homicide and improve gun safety to reduce the diversion of guns into black and grey markets, while reducing the velocity of gun transfers. That means targeting straw purchases, requiring gun buyers to store their weapons in a safe or otherwise prove they have taken precautions against theft, require better reporting of lost or stolen guns, etc. Most of the political conversation regarding gun bans/gun control on Democratic side of US politics is so goddamn stupid I can barely stand it. Most of the visible advocacy I see is a goddamn joke with little hope of actually reducing gun homicide or suicide and terrible political strategy.
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Mar 21, 2019 22:35
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