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ICHIBAHN posted:Yuns, you don't feel bjj is for everyone, can you explain why you've come to this conclusion? I don't necessarily disagree, just interested in your experienced viewpoint.
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Mar 21, 2019 18:54
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Yuns posted:Bullies become more dangerous bullies; crybabies stay crybabies. I never really thought about it, but yea this makes sense. There are good people that do jits, but there are also a bunch of dicks that end up of with black belts eventually.
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Mar 21, 2019 19:08
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Yuns posted:I don't generally mean athletic ability. When I've met people who would be better off not doing BJJ, I usually mean mental attitude or learning ability. First mental attitude, people have some rose tinted idea that martial arts will make people better humans. That's generally bullshit. Martial arts may reveal who you really are under adversity but rather than change people's fundamental nature. Bullies become more dangerous bullies; crybabies stay crybabies. You also need some stubborness to make the most of BJJ. People who give up too easily have a tough time of it and I just can't be bothered to baby anyone anymore. Second, a tiny minority of people don't seem to be capable of learning. Some people are visual learners, others do well with explanations, some need to physically execute the moves to understand them but there is a tiny minority that loving doesn't get it and apparently never will despite everyone investing their time to help them. I'm not even talking about the mentally handicapped. They can learn too. I'm talking about the guy who executes every move wrong no matter how many times and how many ways its taught to him. Lastly, some people just hate grappling. They just never get comfortable with that level of close contact. Not everyone loves having someone's nutsack ground against them. I generally agree with all of this. I always tell people "You'll know pretty quickly whether you love or hate bjj" some people stick it out for a while others leave after a couple sessions, others stay to black belt. We definitely have one guy who just doesn't loving get it and he's like 50 years old and a successful businessman.
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Mar 21, 2019 19:21
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The not taking it easy on new people thing makes sense to me - one of the advanced guys who I train with a lot (who also destroys me) says "You need to hunt white belts to improve your timing and offense." I'm also in a phase, especially with Judo, where I'm sick of all of my time going towards helping white belts and yellow belts. I know it's important to build people up, but goddamn it I need to practice my poo poo too. But there's a space between destroying people and letting things serve their needs. E.g. if I have an arm bar on a guy, I know I have an arm bar on him, whether or not he taps. If I'm working with a white belt and I have him there, and he starts working a good escape as I extend the arm, about half the time I'll back off a bit and not actively block the escape to give him a chance to try the technique.
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Mar 21, 2019 19:49
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CommonShore posted:I'm also in a phase, especially with Judo, where I'm sick of all of my time going towards helping white belts and yellow belts. I know it's important to build people up, but goddamn it I need to practice my poo poo too. It's specific to the gym culture and distribution of student skill level. IMO, senior students should help with instruction (as opposed to saying nothing and only answering direct questions about what happened with junior partners) organically, during or briefly after rounds. But yeah, that is cutting a lot into your development time if the junior:senior ratio is 5.
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Mar 21, 2019 19:52
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With new guys I usually try to do 2 things: 1) put us in situations where I want to grow. "I could never do this sweep on another brown belt but I bet I can find it vs this white belt" 2) punish the obvious mistakes. Over exposed necks get guillotined bench presses get armbars. For them it's a feedback loop for me it's training how to spot and exploit openings. Which tend to be bigger on newer guys so again I can figure stuff out and try to apply it up the ranks. Obv there's some synergy between 1 and 2 with me intentionally getting position and then learning how things evolve. I think it's a decent methodology. I'm not wasting my time they aren't getting steamrolled by the same 5 moves for 6 minutes straight with no recourse.
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Mar 21, 2019 19:58
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kimbo305 posted:It's specific to the gym culture and distribution of student skill level. At judo it's awful. Our club presently has two black belts - one is injured and unreliable; the other has a family commitment which makes him unavailable about 1 in 3 classes. We have five brown belts. Of them, I'm the only one who is not injured and reliably present and a reasonable facsimile of a functioning adult and willing to consistently engage with people. So 50% of the time I'm at least tied for senior person on the mats, and I'm the only one who knows how to plan and structure a class and curriculum, and I'm willing to speak to a room. Even if I offload parts of the class to other people ("Hey green belt lead a warmup." "Hey blue belt run a game." "Hey other brown belt your koshi guruma is awesome show everyone how you do it.") I still spend more time helping other people than I do getting in my reps. The last few weeks I've been practicing advanced throws and techniques with some of the other senior people for the last 45 mins of class and just ignoring everyone else. I'm still not getting any good sparring in, but at least I'm getting something. Anyway tonight at BJJ is rassle night  that'll be fun and I'll certainly tomorrow feel as if I had the poo poo kicked out of me.
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Mar 21, 2019 20:12
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CommonShore posted:
^This. Because how much do you actually learn from destroying a junior?. You don't have to explicitly 'teach', but you can work on your weak areas, timing, & precision...or see how much you can manipulate them into doing what you want them to do. Allow good attempts from their side (compared to their relative level) to succeed. Sure, there's times where I need to prep for tournaments, etc, where I go 'gently caress it, today, it's all about me', but we usually have enough competition specific practice for that purpose. I do believe martial arts make you a better person. Sure there's also assholes who just become bigger assholes, but overall, I think that when people learn to persevere in a group setting. (Even if it's an individual MA), it will trend toward making people nicer. My best friends are all kendo friends. I think by practising together, you get to know eachother in ways you normally wouldn't as your ego and temperament gets exposed in ways that we normally wouldn't, which makes it easier to connect (and built trust).
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Mar 21, 2019 20:22
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I don't want to make it seem like I feel entitled to other students teaching me. I saw that as a drawback - I wanted the instructor or someone in his cadre to teach me. Other students could be telling me wrong things or bad at teaching. If anything, I found it strange that I had to look to senior students to find most of the instruction.
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Mar 21, 2019 21:00
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In my TKD classes the owner/former owner of the school's son was one of the assistant instructors for a long time. He knows what he's doing and he's pretty good a point sparring and he's very quick but he never teaches people when he spars them. We tend to end every sparring night with King of the Ring (two people fight, who ever wins stays in the ring, fights the next person) and he spends 90% of king of the ring in the ring every time. He uses a small number of techniques to score his points, over and over and over again and stays in the ring. You could argue that by sticking with the same techniques he's forcing people to learn how to adapt to them but he doesn't work with people to lean how to counter them and after a few months (nevermind a couple years) of doing the same stuff it should be clear that people aren't going to learn it without more direct help.
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Mar 21, 2019 21:05
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Thanks for the discussion. It's been really insightful. I'll stick with Judo, but I haven't entirely given up on the notion of BJJ in the future.
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Mar 21, 2019 21:32
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ICHIBAHN posted:Yuns, you don't feel bjj is for everyone, can you explain why you've come to this conclusion? I don't necessarily disagree, just interested in your experienced viewpoint. Some people don’t like losing for a month solid. BJJ is a very humbling experience and for the most part it’s very rare to get lucky and beat a more experienced training partner. BJJ will destroy your ego.
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Mar 22, 2019 08:55
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Oh I know lol. Been doing it four years, very familiar with losing
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Mar 22, 2019 09:07
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Yuns posted:I don't generally mean athletic ability. When I've met people who would be better off not doing BJJ, I usually mean mental attitude or learning ability. First mental attitude, people have some rose tinted idea that martial arts will make people better humans. That's generally bullshit. Martial arts may reveal who you really are under adversity but rather than change people's fundamental nature. Bullies become more dangerous bullies; crybabies stay crybabies. You also need some stubborness to make the most of BJJ. People who give up too easily have a tough time of it and I just can't be bothered to baby anyone anymore. Second, a tiny minority of people don't seem to be capable of learning. Some people are visual learners, others do well with explanations, some need to physically execute the moves to understand them but there is a tiny minority that loving doesn't get it and apparently never will despite everyone investing their time to help them. I'm not even talking about the mentally handicapped. They can learn too. I'm talking about the guy who executes every move wrong no matter how many times and how many ways its taught to him. Lastly, some people just hate grappling. They just never get comfortable with that level of close contact. Not everyone loves having someone's nutsack ground against them. This is a good post. All the guys I know that got hooked on grappling loved it from the moment rolling ended and knew they needed that buzz. The others I haven't seen fall in love with the sport on the spot never lasted more than a month. I think stubbornness is also a factor. You kind of need some form of ego (maybe that's the wrong word) to come back week after week and through injury to get better.
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Mar 23, 2019 02:10
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Been doing bjj for 5 years, if my gym moved 6 blocks west I'd find a different sport to do 
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Mar 23, 2019 04:18
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Neon Belly posted:Been doing bjj for 5 years, if my gym moved 6 blocks west I'd find a different sport to do You'd have to change your User Name too
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Mar 23, 2019 04:22
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Odddzy posted:This is a good post. I actually didn't love it at the beginning. I wanted to try something out and was kinda meh on it but my wife really liked it. I also caught a broken rib during my second class that hosed with an important competition in another sport I had a couple weeks later and almost walked away completely after that. Only came back because I had already spent the money on a gi and my wife wanted to keep going and now I love it.
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Mar 23, 2019 04:22
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Loved it from Day 1, must be something magic about it.
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Mar 23, 2019 08:52
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I hated it for about a month but I was really determined not to be terrible at it. I'm probably just bad now.
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Mar 23, 2019 08:55
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I wrestled in middle school, grew up with brothers and loosely followed UFC in the early 2000’s. When I first went to the local MMA gym it was an open mat nogi day. A white belt explained the rules to me and said let’s roll. I snapped him down, circled around took his back and RNCed him. I think he was very surprised. I can’t say I went for the first month without rapping anyone, but from what people tell me it’s pretty normal. Anyway it’s a tough sport, and time spent is the only way to get better. Some people do learn faster than others, and being in shape certainly helps you spend more time on the mats. It’s kind of insane, to think that you should be winning without putting in more time than others, unless you are a fast learning freak, super fit or a genetic freak. I’ve always loved nogi, don’t really care for gi BJJ though. I will say that my enthusiasm suffers when I don’t have a training partner to set my sights on, as a achievable goal to beat, though.
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Mar 23, 2019 09:52
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JaySB posted:I hated it for about a month but I was really determined not to be terrible at it. I'm probably just bad now. LOL, I feel the same way to this day in TKD. A real fish out of water feeling for the first week or so for sure. Often I still feel clumsy and uncoordinated, but at least I'm not tripping over my own feet as often. Feels good when you get compliments. Coincidentally, belt testing today - hopefully blue is in my future. The nerves never quite go away. slidebite fucked around with this message at 15:58 on Mar 23, 2019 |
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Mar 23, 2019 15:08
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My dad, while he was still physically active, was a long-time martial artist - wrestling, like 3 kinds of karate, black belt in judo, black belt in shotokan &c. As soon as I was old enough he put me into judo and it got into my blood. I quit through my late teens and early 20s, but as soon as I got physically active again I went right back to fight sports, but I didn't get into grappling again because I couldn't afford it, and the good clubs were like an hour away by my only available means of transportation. Now it's basically all I do.slidebite posted:LOL, I feel the same way to this day in TKD. A real fish out of water feeling for the first week or so for sure. Often I still feel clumsy and coordinated, but at least I'm not tripping over my own feet as often. Feels good when you get compliments. Do a big cool jumpy spin kick! Knock em dead!  
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Mar 23, 2019 15:15
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12 years here, even though many were scraping by training on the road. I did tkd from age 5 to 18 but always felt like I couldn't kick anyone's rear end for real and it bothered me. I actually watched UFC 1 with my dad so bjj was in the back of my mind. Especially because I'm practically Royce's exact size and weight. At some point though it became just "what I do". like golf or knitting.
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Mar 23, 2019 15:16
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Did my testing Saturday. Felt good going into class. A little bit of butterflies like all tests, but nothing terrible. Got called up to test and got 95% of the way through my pattern, caught myself making a mistake. Stopped, bowed to the masters, restarted.... Which sucked because the 3 others that were up at the same time as me were all basically finished when I restarted, so literally everyone there (probably 200 people as it's open to the public and all the parents/family are there in addition to the club members) were staring at me as I was the only guy doing anything and they were waiting on me. It sort of rattled me. Then had to do 2-step pre-arranged sparring (7 different ones, each have an offensive and defensive set of moves, so 14 "sets" in total) and I literally couldn't keep my count straight in my head and had to re-do 2 or 3 of those. My last one features a high section (head height) jumping crescent kick, and of course my partner was probably about 6'4" and while I was able to kick head height, we were too close so when I brought my leg down I actually hung up on his shoulder. Ugh. End of class spoke to one of the masters about how badly that's going to effect my score and he just said "not much, don't worry about it." All the other instructors said I looked good too, but man, getting rattled just hosed me right up. I suspect I passed OK, but didn't go the way I wanted it to go.. that's for sure. So out of curiosity, how do all the other arts here test? Our belt tests are broken into 3 sections pretty much like this: Pattern specific to belt Pre-arranged section specific to belt (after yellow, this is a 2 person exercise with pre-arranged offensive/defensive moves like I mentioned earlier) Open free sparring for 2 minutes Black belt testing includes the above but also board breaking and special techniques. Also the masters can and will spot test the candidate to do any of the previous belt patterns/pre-arranged at any time, in any order. While I'm at it, here is our belt progression. White Yellow Yellow-green stripe Green Green - blue stripe Blue Blue - red stripe Red Red-Black stripe Black Double promotions are possible, albeit very rare and actually not a good thing IMHO as the student then needs to memorize both new patterns and pre-arranged sets. A real double edged sword.
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Mar 25, 2019 20:49
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Every ranking I've attended - across styles and gyms - has been a fait accompli. If you're there you're getting the promotion.
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Mar 25, 2019 21:10
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For us, failures or non passing isn't common but it can certainly happen. Especially the more senior the belt, the more fussy and perfectionist the grading will be.
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Mar 25, 2019 22:17
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Xguard86 posted:Every ranking I've attended - across styles and gyms - has been a fait accompli. If you're there you're getting the promotion. i failed my blue belt test. there were 30 some-odd moves you had to execute perfectly. three strikes and you're out. iirc one of my docked points was because I kept the grip on the arm after a lasso sweep which ended in a position that could have been considered a bicep slicer, and another was I did the math wrong after adding up the score in a hypothetical exchange i still got the belt bc of my powerful scrapping or perhaps pity
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Mar 25, 2019 22:30
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Kendo is pretty unforgiving. You get 2x 1 minute sparring and if you pass, then you have to do kata. (Which you can also fail on). Pass rates decrease rapidly as you go up in rank...Shodan is about 90%, Yondan about 25% and Hachidan varies about 0.5-2%. And before anyone goes 'well, that's one way foe the organization to make money', apart from the small registration fee, the main fee is only payable if you pass. This is an old, but nice documentary about 2 different peoples attempt at passing 8th dan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HPDAFqN74A
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Mar 25, 2019 23:29
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We have no testing protocols at my BJJ club. At Judo we have tests. A typical test is showing that you can do a list of 8-10 throws associated with that rank, plus a random handful of techniques from lower ranks. The expectations shift a bit depending on the context. A white belt looking for yellow will basically get passed if they're able to remember generally what the throws are without much prompting, and if their breakfalls are good enough to send them to a competition. A blue belt looking for a brown belt will need to know the Japanese names and to demonstrate some understanding of the bodily physics of the throws underneath the ability to just kinda do it (this typically gets evaluated via the esoteric throws for higher belts which exist, but which never get practiced for a variety of reasons - i.e. "remember that fukken thing? go make it work.") Higher coloured also need to demonstrate bits of kata knowledge. For green they need to be able to do 1 set of the throwing kata and make it look like a kata, and more sets and higher quality of execution get added from there. Black belt grading is based on three things - ability to demonstrate/teach techniques, kata, and randori. They want to see that you're not rubbish at any of them, and that you have a knack for at least one. Eligibility for black belt ranks is based on participation in Judo - coaching, competing, reffing, and/or club administration.
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Mar 25, 2019 23:31
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Regarding fail rates, I'd say black is probably (best guess) 60%+ for at least part of it. However, they'll allow just a retest of the failed section, so an entire retest isn't necessary. Also there is a fitness test for blackbelt candidates that they have to pass. I'm not entirely sure how it works but I think they take a baseline at the beginning of the process and expect an improvement on it or, if it's excellent, no backsliding. Regardless of age, if you're 17 or 60. We do have a few current active BBs that earned it past 50.
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Mar 25, 2019 23:47
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slidebite posted:Regarding fail rates, I'd say black is probably (best guess) 60%+ for at least part of it. However, they'll allow just a retest of the failed section, so an entire retest isn't necessary. that's uplifting to hear. it has been my experience with traditional martial arts that black belts must instead pass a fatness test
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Mar 25, 2019 23:57
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I would ace a fatness test
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Mar 26, 2019 00:05
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Huh crazy to hear about these real examinations.
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Mar 26, 2019 03:53
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I think I would have benefitted from some testing structure for the first few years. I found that I was getting decent at sparring with really just straight punches, teeps, and round kicks. Then I would slowly try out a new technique once in a blue moon, and sometimes beginner's luck would motivate me to really hone the move. If I'd been forced to drill technical proficiency with more moves (even just on the bag) to pass tests, I would have had a wider palette of options to think through in the early years of sparring. PS. frequently the impetus for trying out a new move was having it done to me in sparring or seeing somebody use it in a UFC event.
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Mar 26, 2019 05:22
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I've been doing Japanese Jiu Jitsu for for about twelve months now, done two gradings and they've been made up of:
Japanese terms for everything is expected - white to yellow probably gets a pass but after that, no dice For both gradings everyone there passed, and I suspect for the lower grades if you're there you're passing unless you're truly awful. I have seen people fail higher gradings, although when that's happened people have been invited back for a 'top-up' grading to re-do the bits they were particularly weak on. I don't believe they had to do the whole thing again. This would have been for a middling rank rather than black belt though where I expect things are more pass/fail.
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Mar 26, 2019 09:16
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This is kind of a "Please help me work up the courage" type post. I did Judo for about 1.5 years several years ago. I enjoyed it immensely, but I was terrible at it. I made it to yellow belt, but I never felt like I earned it. Towards the end I got sick so I stayed away so I didn't spread the crud. Then I started a weight loss regimen which prevented me from going. Lost a ton of weight, got hurt, went to rehab, gained all the weight back. Now I'm fat again, but able to train. My original plan was to get back down to a healthy weight then go back to Judo, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen any time soon. Reasons to go back: I love it. It's good exercise. Sensei was awesome and supportive. Reasons to chicken out: I'm embarrassingly bad at it. I'm just as embarrassingly fat as I was when I left. I'm embarrassed I've been gone so long.
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Mar 26, 2019 20:55
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Travic posted:This is kind of a "Please help me work up the courage" type post. I did Judo for about 1.5 years several years ago. I enjoyed it immensely, but I was terrible at it. I made it to yellow belt, but I never felt like I earned it. It’s like going to the gym - no one cares, if anything they are impressed you’re there. If it’s same sensei who was previously awesome and supportive and something you love gently caress anyone else and their opinion of you and go have some fun.
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Mar 26, 2019 20:58
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butros posted:It’s like going to the gym - no one cares, if anything they are impressed you’re there. If it’s same sensei who was previously awesome and supportive and something you love gently caress anyone else and their opinion of you and go have some fun. I'm 33 now. Is that too old to start again?
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Mar 26, 2019 21:01
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Travic posted:This is kind of a "Please help me work up the courage" type post. I did Judo for about 1.5 years several years ago. I enjoyed it immensely, but I was terrible at it. I made it to yellow belt, but I never felt like I earned it. Sensei will be delighted to see you. That will make his day. 33 is not too old.
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Mar 26, 2019 21:03
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Travic posted:I'm 33 now. Is that too old to start again? No.
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Mar 26, 2019 21:06
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