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I think the issue is not our opinion of ICRC but that you’re using a colloquialism incorrectly, as public announcements to the world media typically aren’t considered flying under the radar. Mystery solved.
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Mar 24, 2019 13:57
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mlmp08 posted:I think the issue is not our opinion of ICRC but that you’re using a colloquialism incorrectly, as public announcements to the world media typically aren’t considered flying under the radar. Mystery solved. lol okay
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Mar 24, 2019 14:23
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Rust Martialis posted:Thank you for clearly demonstrating that there are indeed posters such as you whose whole position is simply "oppose the US", friend. That suffering and hunger was caused by the sanctions and capital revolt and you know this. I care more about actual Venezuelan than you do, because I want the sanctions to end instead of wanting American death squads to murder them so a bunch of rich Americans and Gusanos can take oil profits. History has shown time and again what happens to actual people when the US get sinvolved in South America. But I guess not wanting a new El Mozote means I have no compassion or something.
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Mar 24, 2019 16:20
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One of the big problems with focusing on humanitarian aid is a misunderstanding of the crisis. This crisis is fundamentally economic, not from some type of natural disaster. It requires different solutions than simply providing food and medicine until the disaster is over and the homes are rebuilt, etc. This is why the US wants to provide weapons, gas masks, etc, because for them this is a political crisis which can be exploited for US interests. I think the hunger statistics paint a different picture then the hyperbolic reporting and belief in the media. While many are struggling, the struggle is due to hyperinflation and the inability for the economy to function. The vast majority are getting food and eating, it is just a huge pain in the rear end for many to get it, particularly if you are poor. Sanctions are designed to increase this economic suffering, not fix it. If we want a program to fix I honestly believe lifting all sanctions would do a lot more than providing humanitarian aid, even if that aid was out of the kindness of our hearts. Economic aid would be a bit more interesting of a discussion, but given our neoliberal institutions most economic aid are just poison pills.
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Mar 24, 2019 16:26
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MonsieurChoc posted:That suffering and hunger was caused by the sanctions and capital revolt and you know this. lol nah mostly Presenting Nipples posted:
i mean, if there was ever a situation where "throw food aid at the problem" had minimal downsides, doing it in a country where food production has already imploded (largely through the same sort of PSUV economic malfeasance that trashed the state oil company) is probably it But yeah, rebuilding Venezuela's productive capacity without, uh, international capitalists stealing a huge portion of it is a pretty titanic prospect regardless of who's in charge. Further on the aid front, something that bugs me in a bunch of different ways is that the timing of Maduro going "welp, guess Venezuela is in crisis and needs outside assistance" is inextricably linked to the (mostly) genuinely horrible and stupid late 2018 early 2019 new sanctions. Before that, even though the PSUV was grudgingly allowing a trickle of Red Cross aid in, a bigger part of the problem was them going to enormous lengths to downplay conditions in the country. Basically it makes me that much madder at both the US (for the stupid bad escalation) and the PSUV, that it took this stupid bad escalation to give Maduro enough cover to blame the US / anyone-except-himself for the disaster everyone goddamn knew had been going on for year, and admit it exists.
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Mar 24, 2019 17:21
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mlmp08 posted:Maybe cause not many people really care and just want to see Maduro gone before they’re willing to help regular-rear end people? Sure, I absolutely agree with that. But that means it’s not a US thing against Maduro, it’s global. Almost any country in the entire world (outside of like micro nations in the Caribbean and Pacific) has enough budget that they could massively increase the ICRC’s budget with earmarks for Venezuela or to similar services. But they haven’t except for Cuba, which isn’t even doing it as aid but as trade. So like, why has Turkey not increased aid to Venezuela? Russia? China? Kazakhstan? France? It’s not only the US who holds purse strings for the ICRC or UNDP or whatever. I’m not sure that was your argument and since I don’t have you on ignore I assume it wasn’t, but several of the thread regulars last time this came up thought that the US was the only country in the world that could regulate aid and held the purse strings and direction of all humanitarian ONGs worldwide.
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Mar 24, 2019 17:44
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MonsieurChoc posted:That suffering and hunger was caused by the sanctions and capital revolt and you know this. The suffering and hunger predate US sanctions. I will leave the question of "capital revolt" until you provide an evidentiary basis for your claim. The idea that the choice is binary, between "sanctions ending" and "American death squads" is, of course, a false one. There are, and have been discussed, other positions than those two. As to El Mozote, this is not the US thread, nor the Elliot Abrams thread, nor the El Salvador thread. You might profitably restrict yourself to discussing Venezuela here, friend? You seem to be rather unfamiliar for example, about the sanctions, and *seem* to be somehow of the rather common, if uninformed opinion that they somehow caused the medical and food shortages. You should really do more reading before posting again, it really would help you avoid such simple errors. Good luck reading!
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Mar 24, 2019 20:12
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Rust Martialis posted:The suffering and hunger predate US sanctions. I will leave the question of "capital revolt" until you provide an evidentiary basis for your claim. Hmm, no. It's my informed opinion that you are wrong and are pro-US coup. Bringing up what actually happens when the US is left to it's own devices in South America is relevant to Venezuela, as Venezuela is the next target. Simply ignoring this and deciding that there is a magical way that America is not going to do what it has continuously done for over 150 years is either really deep self-conditiong or, more likely, callous disregard for the actual consequences on real people. Simply put, you dont' care about Venezuelans sufferng, you jsut really like American interventions.
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Mar 24, 2019 20:21
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MonsieurChoc posted:Hmm, no. It's my informed opinion that you are wrong and are pro-US coup. I refute you trivially with my posting history in this thread, another item on the list of things you are either ignorant of or dishonest about. No matter, really, as the effects of both are remarkably similar. (You may, of course, be both ignorant *and* dishonest - no false dichotomy posited here.)
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Mar 24, 2019 20:54
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MonsieurChoc posted:Hmm, no. It's my informed opinion that you are wrong and are pro-US coup. The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Venezuela: you jsut really like American interventions
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Mar 24, 2019 21:25
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Rust Martialis posted:The suffering and hunger predate US sanctions. I will leave the question of "capital revolt" until you provide an evidentiary basis for your claim. I get that it is not a simple dichotomy, but do you disagree with the notion that the sanctions in place are only exacerbating the suffering of the Venezuelan people, and thus should be ended asap? Like apart from any other policy towards Venezuela, these sanctions need to stop before they kill more people
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Mar 24, 2019 21:49
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I've been away from the thread for a bit. I looked back a few pages to see if this had been posted and didn't see it, but apologies if I missed it. Two Russian Air Force aircraft landed at the Maiquetia International Airport yesterday. One of them was carrying a group of soldiers (I've read estimates of ~100), and the other allegedly had 35 tonnes of supplies: https://twitter.com/FedericoBlackB/status/1109575372792836096 https://twitter.com/FedericoBlackB/status/1109595445054095360 https://twitter.com/cristiancrespoj/status/1109785210680430593 I can't find the link right now but I read a report (I think it was from Reuters?) that a high-ranking officer of the Russian army was reportedly part of this group that arrived yesterday.
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Mar 24, 2019 22:04
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Rust Martialis posted:I refute you trivially with my posting history in this thread, another item on the list of things you are either ignorant of or dishonest about. No matter, really, as the effects of both are remarkably similar. (You may, of course, be both ignorant *and* dishonest - no false dichotomy posited here.) Your history of shitposting and bootlicking is not the badge of honor you appear to think it is. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 24, 2019 22:09
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It's a good thing that only one country can do an imperialism or the arrival of actual detachments of soldiers from Russia to protect their interests in Venezuela might be perceived as a problem
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Mar 24, 2019 22:09
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M. Discordia posted:It's a good thing that only one country can do an imperialism or the arrival of actual detachments of soldiers from Russia to protect their interests in Venezuela might be perceived as a problem It's a potential problem, yes, depending on how things go. There's no illusion about the goodwill of modern-day Russia here. Whatever help they're giving, they're expecting something in return.
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Mar 24, 2019 22:24
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M. Discordia posted:It's a good thing that only one country can do an imperialism or the arrival of actual detachments of soldiers from Russia to protect their interests in Venezuela might be perceived as a problem How is it imperialism if they were invited by the sitting president?
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Mar 24, 2019 22:25
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:How is it imperialism if they were invited by the sitting president? I don't agree with the original post, but take a situation like Vietnam or Egypt during the Urabi revolt as examples of unpopular governments inviting imperialists.
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Mar 24, 2019 22:30
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Or Afganisthan with the USSR. So yeah, worrying.
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Mar 24, 2019 22:33
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Vasukhani posted:I don't agree with the original post, but take a situation like Vietnam or Egypt during the Urabi revolt as examples of unpopular governments inviting imperialists. Afghanistan.
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Mar 24, 2019 23:14
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:How is it imperialism if they were invited by the sitting president? Uh imperialism often involved colonial powers playing off internal struggles to get influence on thin pretexts to legitimacy
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Mar 25, 2019 03:58
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CAPS LOCK BROKEN posted:How is it imperialism if they were invited by the sitting president? confirmed, CLB is a big fan of the British East India Company
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Mar 25, 2019 04:10
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100 soldiers ain’t gonna mean poo poo to Elliot Abrams droid army.
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Mar 25, 2019 07:50
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100 soldiers from putin is bad 1 antonov of aid is still 1 antonov more aid since the coup started than the collective ~west~ could provide tho lmao. too bad it's just maduro's breakfast and will never see any poor people.
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Mar 25, 2019 10:58
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It really is darkly comical that the things that the US is accused of doing by the shitposting pro-Maduro spammers, Russia is ACTUALLY and LITERALLY doing right under their noses. But remember kids, the true imperialists are the countries that support Guaido, including imperialist Andorra, imperialist Iceland, imperialist Sweden, imperialist Micronesia, imperialist Marshall Islands, and the 50+ other democracies that support a return to democracy. And remember also kids, the true President is the one who has created the largest refugee crisis in the western hemisphere ever, while his goons pilfer every last resource they can get their hands on, and send the money abroad.
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Mar 25, 2019 15:23
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Squalid posted:We're getting some information about how US sanctions are impacting Venezuelan exports: These increases to China and India are not true "exports", more like ransom payments. Rosneft owns Nayara, an Indian company. Neither Russia (Nayara) nor China pay Maduro anything for the oil. And in fact, Nayara sells Maduro's oil for a profit. The only one that pays is Reliant Oil in India, but they've said they are not increasing their imports. A reminder: the reason that China & Venezuela do not support democracy in Venezuela is because their hegemony investments in the dictatorship will disappear. Obviously, if the Venezuelan people were able to wrest control of their resources from Maduro/Russia/China, the free oil that China/Russia receive will probably largely disappear (depending on what they can negotiate).
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Mar 25, 2019 16:14
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Private Witt posted:These increases to China and India are not true "exports", more like ransom payments. Rosneft owns Nayara, an Indian company. Neither Russia (Nayara) nor China pay Maduro anything for the oil. And in fact, Nayara sells Maduro's oil for a profit. Are you sure about that? It seems unlikely to me that the recent increase in oil output to China and Russia, i.e. the fraction that is no longer going to the USA, is being given away as loan collateral to China and Russia. I mean I guess it's possible, but it seems unlikely to me that they're not receiving at least some hard $$$ immediately on receipt for their shipments to China and Russia. I imagine of course that some of it is kept as though repaying a bank loan, but I'd be really surprised if the recent increase was under the same terms. If it is, then it means essentially they're losing 100% of it and their trade deficit will plunge so fast that Maduro wouldn't be able to last the year. Also to the above poster: Caps Lock Broken and possibly one of the other regulars posted, unironically, that all of those countries you mention were built on slavery and colonialism, thus rendering modern Sweden, Iceland, etc, fascist racist imperialist states due to their legacies. This was said totally unironically, somehow pretending that China and Russia and Turkey are not also built off of legacies of colonialism and imperialist actions, conquest, and subjugation of other nations.
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Mar 25, 2019 16:26
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https://twitter.com/JackDetsch_ALM/status/1110191521477869571
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Mar 25, 2019 17:04
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Yeah, that'll help things.
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Mar 25, 2019 17:09
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Rust Martialis posted:Afghanistan. Which time? 
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Mar 25, 2019 17:13
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Saladman posted:Are you sure about that? It seems unlikely to me that the recent increase in oil output to China and Russia, i.e. the fraction that is no longer going to the USA, is being given away as loan collateral to China and Russia. I mean I guess it's possible, but it seems unlikely to me that they're not receiving at least some hard $$$ immediately on receipt for their shipments to China and Russia. I imagine of course that some of it is kept as though repaying a bank loan, but I'd be really surprised if the recent increase was under the same terms. If it is, then it means essentially they're losing 100% of it and their trade deficit will plunge so fast that Maduro wouldn't be able to last the year. I can only repeat what has been reported. And Venezuela not receiving cash for the oil that Russia and China take has been heavily reported. I think your thesis is wrong, though. It is entirely conceivable that Venezuela receives no money from those transactions (even if the number has increased slightly), because Russia and China have the bus driver by the balls.
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Mar 25, 2019 17:24
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There's a new power outage. Netblocks is reporting that more than half the country is affected: https://twitter.com/netblocks/status/1110263698071973888
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Mar 25, 2019 20:41
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I think Russia should stay out of Venezuela, but thats just my opinion on the matter
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Mar 26, 2019 00:58
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Control Volume posted:I think Russia should stay out of Venezuela, but thats just my opinion on the matter I'm actually super curious what happens if China rolls in wholeheartedly, though their involvement in Africa et al has been p interesting (and I'm WILDLY undecided on Sri Lanka in specific)
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Mar 26, 2019 01:00
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IIRC, most (Though probably not all) Venezuelan oil that hits Chinese or Russian shores is taken as debt payment. Maduro has spent a good chunk of his term taking out increasingly large loans with decreasingly few ways to pay them back, so by this point both China and (To a greater extent since they're not as rich) Russia are pretty heavily invested in making sure that they're at least getting something out of the country. Anyway, if I were to dip into wild speculation, there's not enough Russian troops on the ground to really do anything, but they're a useful deterrent to deter President Good Brains and Bolton's crew from getting an itchy trigger finger. They may also be there as a subtle reminder from Putin to Maduro that while Russia's supporting him, that support could vanish at any time, and he really better get his poo poo together, but that's nothing more than wishful thinking. As for China... they probably care, but not enough to really throw their weight one way or another. Like Russia, they want to see a return on their investment, but Venezuela is way outside of their sphere of influence (And well within the US sphere) so they're more constrained diplomatically than Russia is (Since Russia doesn't care about upsetting the US or other countries within the region). Practically speaking, they may also recognize that Maduro's government isn't likely to last beyond the next year or so with or without their help, so by not saying much either way they can take the long view and continue to have friendly relations, favorable trade deals, and continued oil for debt servicing under the administration of whoever comes next. E: A good example of China's current diplomatic policy towards Venezuela: "IADB cancels China meeting after Beijing bars Venezuela representative posted:WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The Inter-American Development Bank on Friday called off next week’s meeting of its 48 member countries in China after Beijing refused to allow a representative of Venezuelan opposition leader Juan Guaido to attend, two sources with knowledge of the decision said. "We'll support Maduro's government, but only so far as we're not going to explicitly recognize Guaido's." Acebuckeye13 fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Mar 26, 2019 |
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Mar 26, 2019 01:19
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Mar 26, 2019 01:23
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The blackout that started yesterday afternoon was affecting most of the country by the end of the day. Netblocks calculates that 88% of Venezuela was affected. The government has ordered classes and workplaces to remain closed today as a result of the outage. I'm not sure what the current status of the disruption is, but evidently its enough to shut down the country again. The government is also claiming once again that the outage was caused by "attacks" against the electrical grid.
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Mar 26, 2019 14:26
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How do US cybermen keep getting away with it? You’d think the Russians or Chinese could offer some cyber security help. They certainly aren’t strangers in the field.
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Mar 26, 2019 14:50
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Shaocaholica posted:How do US cybermen keep getting away with it? The USA has all the cyber, the best cyber, under the current president. But more seriously I imagine a trained cat could take down the Venezuelan electric grid, although it'd probably have to suicide itself to do so. Like, a single monkey took down Kenya's electric grid a few years ago ( http://time.com/4361370/monkey-kenya-power-blackout/ ) in the opening salvo of the real Planet of the Apes.
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Mar 26, 2019 14:57
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Has this kind of national outage been common in the past? Even if Venezuela's grid has been neglected having two in such quick succession immediately after the US declares a new round of sanctions seems pretty unlikely.
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Mar 26, 2019 15:27
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Irony Be My Shield posted:Has this kind of national outage been common in the past? Even if Venezuela's grid has been neglected having two in such quick succession immediately after the US declares a new round of sanctions seems pretty unlikely.
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Mar 26, 2019 15:29
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