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This seems like a pretty big development https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/1109531802836844544
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Mar 23, 2019 21:16
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mila kunis posted:Have you taken a look at the french people's reaction to their EU lackey government's austerity measures recently. Maybe they will reconsider their options when Europe get gobsmacked by a couple major climate change events.
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Mar 23, 2019 21:22
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tino posted:Maybe they will reconsider their options when Europe get gobsmacked by a couple major climate change events. Nothing a bit of extra austerity can't fix
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Mar 23, 2019 21:33
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mila kunis posted:Have you taken a look at the french people's reaction to their EU lackey government's austerity measures recently. Abolishing the cult of austerity is the very first reform the EU needs.
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Mar 23, 2019 23:42
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Imo what the European Union needs is a single social healthcare system, a universal minimum wage accross all member states, a healthy 90% tax on all income over 10 million, an enshrined way to turn countries towards green energy and a nazi-punching clause in every memberstate's constitution.
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Mar 24, 2019 11:52
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An insane mind posted:Imo what the European Union needs is a single social healthcare system, a universal minimum wage accross all member states, a healthy 90% tax on all income over 10 million, an enshrined way to turn countries towards green energy and a nazi-punching clause in every memberstate's constitution. The minimum wage would have to be very low (like 4 euros per hour or w/e) or it would devastate eastern european economies. But otherwise it sounds pretty okay.
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Mar 24, 2019 12:05
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Private Speech posted:The minimum wage would have to be very low (like 4 euros per hour or w/e) or it would devastate eastern european economies. But otherwise it sounds pretty okay. What is needed is a law that forces everybody to be paid by the laws of the country where they perform work, not where their employer is. And that should be used even for truckers.
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Mar 24, 2019 13:18
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That was a good post from Cat Mattress. As much as Remain leaning British people may hate to hear it, at this stage the EU really will be better without your country and its toxicity. Having the UK remain, spend decades more blocking deeper EU integration, and sending hordes of UKIP and Tory MEPs to Brussels would be a disaster. On the plus side the UK can rejoin in 10 or 20 years when more of the Brexiters have died off. Without any ridiculous exemptions this time. Lets just hope Nigel Farage lives long enough to see the UK join Schengen and the Euro.
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Mar 24, 2019 13:27
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I will not join you in hoping Nigel Farage lives long.
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Mar 24, 2019 13:30
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MonikaTSarn posted:What is needed is a law that forces everybody to be paid by the laws of the country where they perform work, not where their employer is. And that should be used even for truckers. Such a law already exists. It's over 20 years old. A German trucker can't pay rent on a polish wage, so there would be no point in driving polish tours for a German company. Decoupling wages from cost of living for truckers would be a huge clusterfuck.
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Mar 24, 2019 13:31
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Blut posted:That was a good post from Cat Mattress. As much as Remain leaning British people may hate to hear it, at this stage the EU really will be better without your country and its toxicity. Having the UK remain, spend decades more blocking deeper EU integration, and sending hordes of UKIP and Tory MEPs to Brussels would be a disaster.  , Britain should become Norway--- for a decade for the sake of the rest of us 
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Mar 24, 2019 14:38
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Opferwurst posted:Such a law already exists. It's over 20 years old. But this law does not exist over all of EU, and the current setup lead to wage dumping in wealthier countries.
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Mar 24, 2019 14:46
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A single EU-wide welfare system and a single EU-wide minimum wage are good ideas but they're terribly dependent on implementation to work right because they'd be terribly easy to sabotage. For welfare, my idea would be to start by merging the different organisms together in a first time without changing how they work in each country. Just give them a common treasury to establish solidarity in a first time. Then gradually unify the different systems with a clause of leveling only upward. Countries would be reformed one at a time, starting with the ones offering the weakest service and bringing them up to the standard of one of their neighbor. Gradual but constant improvement and harmonization by the top. For minimum wage, same thing. First each country needs to have its own minimum wage (four EU countries still don't), then there can be a single EU-wide minimum wage that starts at the bottom and gradually rise upward to reach, say, 60% of the average wage across all of the EU. When the national minimum wage becomes lower than the EU-wide minimum wage one, then it automatically gets increased to match. Costs of living are different in different countries so you couldn't live in Luxembourg with a Hungarian minimum wage. And with unified and gradually harmonizing wages and welfare, you'd also need likewise a unified and gradually harmonizing fiscal system. Opferwurst posted:Such a law already exists. It's over 20 years old. Yes. However, there are still problems with it, mostly concerning the taxes paid on that wage. The social security contribution, notably, is paid to the employee's country rather than the employer's. This creates a situation where the relevant authorities have difficulties checking whether the correct sums are paid, which makes fraud easy and compelling. This is a domain where a unified European welfare organism would help a lot, even if each national welfare system isn't otherwise modified yet.
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Mar 24, 2019 14:46
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If we have to still work within a liberal framework, how about just creating an entirely new UBI system on top of existing welfare systems? That'd be far simpler to implement, meaningfully help a much larger proportion of the population to create widespread support, and would allow simple (targeted) counter-cyclical spending to harmonize the economies of the EU and make them bounce back from recessions faster.
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Mar 24, 2019 15:52
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A Buttery Pastry posted:If we have to still work within a liberal framework, how about just creating an entirely new UBI system on top of existing welfare systems? That'd be far simpler to implement, meaningfully help a much larger proportion of the population to create widespread support, and would allow simple (targeted) counter-cyclical spending to harmonize the economies of the EU and make them bounce back from recessions faster. A 1% corporate tax levy across the entirety of the EU, used to fund a UBI (even if small initially) would be fantastic. If it was gradually increased it would both help to harmonize the EU corporate tax regimes, and the UBI would help reduce inequality across the union because it would go a lot further in say Bulgaria than Sweden. Win/win. And the standard "but we can't increase corporate tax, the companies will move to another country!" neo-liberal defense would fall even flatter than usual, because its not like companies are just going to up sticks and leave the entire EU. We'd probably need a lot more left wing MEPs to even get such a thing considered though, sadly.
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Mar 24, 2019 16:52
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Hell make it a corporate tax, a wealth tax and estate tax.
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Mar 24, 2019 16:54
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Private Speech posted:The minimum wage would have to be very low (like 4 euros per hour or w/e) or it would devastate eastern european economies. Then let those economies be devastated? They're going to get hosed up one way or another, so let it be for something beneficial.
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Mar 24, 2019 17:40
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Blut posted:A 1% corporate tax levy across the entirety of the EU, used to fund a UBI (even if small initially) would be fantastic. If it was gradually increased it would both help to harmonize the EU corporate tax regimes, and the UBI would help reduce inequality across the union because it would go a lot further in say Bulgaria than Sweden. Win/win. For Germany, a corporate tax rate increase of 1% gives you roughly 12€ per German/per year to play with. And most other EU countries have much less corporate tax revenue per capita than Germany. People really overestimate how much corporate taxation makes. I agree that going in small incremental steps is the only sane way forward. But the problem is that reactionary Gammons are gonna kill all attempts by a thousand little cuts. Go the bold and insane way so that they don't have a chance to wear you down. New treaty, new EU social ministry with clearly defined goals and serious funding.
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Mar 24, 2019 17:41
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Orange Devil posted:Hell make it a corporate tax, a wealth tax and estate tax.
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Mar 24, 2019 18:02
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Opferwurst posted:For Germany, a corporate tax rate increase of 1% gives you roughly 12€ per German/per year to play with. And most other EU countries have much less corporate tax revenue per capita than Germany. People really overestimate how much corporate taxation makes.  Tax revenue for Germany 2018 (est.), going from biggest to smallest: VAT Income tax collected at payroll Income tax (excluding amounts withheld at payroll and for dividends, capital gains and interest income) Trade Tax Energy tax Corporate income tax
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Mar 24, 2019 18:04
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VAT is regressive horseshit that should be replaced.
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Mar 24, 2019 18:06
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Holy loving poo poo, no wonder the German economy spends nothing.
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Mar 24, 2019 18:08
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MiddleOne posted:Holy loving poo poo, no wonder the German economy spends nothing. Intuitively this is true but I'm always eager to hear in detail how exactly this fucks us.
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Mar 24, 2019 18:31
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fishmech posted:Then let those economies be devastated? They're going to get hosed up one way or another, so let it be for something beneficial. I don't think they'd agree to it. Also they're not doing all that badly growth-wise out of the eu right now:   Oh and many of them have some of the lowest levels of wage inequality/GINI in the world (shared with the nordics), so it's not as if they need that much wage equalizing anyway. But aside from that €4/hour would be a reasonable increase to the minimum wage in many of them, e.g. the Czech Republic currently has €2.84/hour, Slovakia €3/hour, Hungary €2.5/hour, etc. It should be noted that this could stand to be increased slightly, even cashiers make ~3.50/hour right now in Czech Republic (not as familiar with the other countries), but the median wage is ~€5.50 so you can't go too far. e: And that's ignoring the fact that there are fairly significant economic divides even within eastern europe, for Bulgaria €4/hour would be probably unsustainable too. It's minimum wage is currently €1.40/hour or so. Though they in particular are an extreme example and by a very significant margin poorer than the other countries in eastern europe. Private Speech fucked around with this message at 19:44 on Mar 24, 2019 |
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Mar 24, 2019 19:28
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People who believe the UK was the only thing stopped a truly federated EU are delusional.
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Mar 24, 2019 19:44
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Randler posted:
Tag you're self, I'm the 465mio in fire protection tax e: no wait, I'm the 1 billion in ... coffee ... tax? Wtf, why is this still a thing? Also, separate beer and champagne taxes, in addition to a general alcohol taxes? Jesus Christ GABA ghoul fucked around with this message at 19:49 on Mar 24, 2019 |
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Mar 24, 2019 19:47
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Clerical Terrors posted:People who believe the UK was the only thing stopped a truly federated EU are delusional. I don't think the wage differences are particularly stopping it either. After all you can already work in any part of the EU you want, though admittedly outside of the UK (and to a lesser extent Germany, France, Spain and Italy [e: and the other minor countries which use the same languages]) you are going to be hampered by the language barrier. You'd just need to be a little more flexible than the US in terms of things like minimum wage and government wages, which is how the EU already pretty much is anyway. Private Speech fucked around with this message at 19:51 on Mar 24, 2019 |
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Mar 24, 2019 19:47
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Opferwurst posted:Also, separate beer and champagne taxes, in addition to a general alcohol taxes? Jesus Christ Different kind of alcohols, different recipients of the revenue sourced from that tax.
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Mar 24, 2019 19:55
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Randler posted:
Where's the Kirche steuer
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Mar 24, 2019 19:57
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mobby_6kl posted:Where's the Kirche steuer Oh, oh, I know this one! The church tax goes directly to the religious organizations. The state only collects it for them (and takes a hefty free for that service from the organizations)
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Mar 24, 2019 19:59
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mobby_6kl posted:Where's the Kirche steuer Not pictured, because the spiral only covers taxes that result in federal, state or municipial revenue. The various Kirchensteuern go to the respective corporate entitity. For the Roman Catholic Church and the Evangelical Churches that would be 6.43 billion € and 5.67 billion € revenue in 2017 respectively. The smaller corporations who can levy Kirchensteuer are probably somewhere made public somewhere as well, but they don't matter that much, I assume.
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Mar 24, 2019 20:03
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Gort posted:VAT is regressive horseshit that should be replaced. This is how you can tell a competent Finance minister from an idiot unfit for the position. If they make repealing VAT and replacing it with progressive taxation their number 1 priority, they fall into the former category.
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Mar 24, 2019 20:18
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Orange Devil posted:This is how you can tell a competent Finance minister from an idiot unfit for the position. If they make repealing VAT and replacing it with progressive taxation their number 1 priority, they fall into the former category. While I completely agree, I do wonder: have there actually been any finance ministers in Europe in the last few decades to ever espouse such a policy?
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Mar 24, 2019 20:23
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Blut posted:While I completely agree, I do wonder: have there actually been any finance ministers in Europe in the last few decades to ever espouse such a policy? VAT is in fact mandated by the EU for a variety of reasons (though only to a certain level), it's one of those things that are perhaps objectively bad about it. But then again it does manage to raise money very well, including from those who are not subject to income tax. Even if it is regressive. Private Speech fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Mar 24, 2019 |
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Mar 24, 2019 20:27
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Private Speech posted:You'd just need to be a little more flexible than the US in terms of things like minimum wage and government wages, which is how the EU already pretty much is anyway. It already ranges from the $7.25 an hour federal minimum to individual states/cities having minimums at $12 (highest for state level) and $15.69 (city level). Also there's a whole fancy pay scale system for federal employment that matches military and civilian pay scales to a region's notional cost of living but never below certain floors - in which, at the lowest end the pay starts at ~$10.40 an hour in the cheapest zones and starts at ~$12.50 an hour in the most expensive. Does the EU truly need to have the difference in pay be greater than double between the highest wage areas and the lowest? And shouldn't governmental positions be paid aspirationally for outlying areas and still relatively decent for core areas, with minimal differences?
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Mar 24, 2019 23:17
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Yes
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Mar 24, 2019 23:29
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Everyone should conserve energy and telecommute from home.
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Mar 25, 2019 00:07
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Opferwurst posted:Tag you're self, I'm the 465mio in fire protection tax Is the fire protection tax the one you pay when a mercenary army shows up outside your town and you pay them to go to a neigbouring town?
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Mar 25, 2019 00:14
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Clerical Terrors posted:People who believe the UK was the only thing stopped a truly federated EU are delusional. It wasn't but it certainly hasn't helped 
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Mar 25, 2019 00:17
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Private Speech posted:But then again it does manage to raise money very well, including from those who are not subject to income tax. Even if it is regressive. The fact that the VAT is regressive is not particularly important since it can and should be compensated by progressive transfer payments to low income citizens. Only the total sum of all transfers and the behavioural effects of individual taxes matter.
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Mar 25, 2019 12:44
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