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OwlFancier posted:There's those weirdos that go on about glorious european culture as opposed to the evil forrin muslim barbarianism or whatever. Bit of an alt right thing where they want to gussy up their racism to sound cosmopolitan. Im not sure this is so common as to be a problem that someone else calling themselves european is going to ordinarily be mistaken for these unlikely weirdos.
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Mar 28, 2019 15:04
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Azza Bamboo posted:I don't know about Scotland and have kept quiet about it. My only issue with the SNP isn't on any ideological grounds, just that they evidently split the Labour vote from 2010 onwards. That raises an open question for me which is "Would I rather a Labour Majority than a Lab/SNP coalition?" Looking at SNP policy they tend to be aligned to the left, and yet at the same time they take every chance they can to have a dig at Labour even where they seem to agree. That's really all I have to offer on Scotland. This essentially cuts both ways, the last labour leader, for example, said during the 2015 election that he was “not going to have a Labour government if it means a coalition or deals with the SNP”. The implication of that was that a minority Tory government would have been preferable to the Labour leader over a Labour-SNP coalition. At the last election, Corbyn said “there will be no coalition deal with the SNP and a Labour government.” Now that’s a perfectly cogent position if there’s a fundamental incompatibility between the SNP and Labour, Labour’s not obliged to make a coalition with anyone, but you can’t really take a public position that you’ll never make agreements with another party even where common ground could be found and then lament that they oppose you.
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Mar 28, 2019 15:04
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https://twitter.com/benton_dan/status/1111243057738014720 Every once in a while it's nice to remember that all the people who utterly despise Jeremy Corbyn in the centre do so because they view the Coalition as the peak of politics.
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Mar 28, 2019 15:05
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Guavanaut posted:
Sure, I can see that, but I would literally always describe myself as primarily a European rather than Irish, and I don't think I've ever been assumed to be a member of the fascists-formerly-known-as Identity Evropa (despite my fash haircut). Maybe a lil different in Ireland tho, where most of our potential fash have been channeled into being "left-wing" Shinner supporters
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Mar 28, 2019 15:05
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Jose posted:jfc now we've got The Saj, The Truss and The Gav Lol do they really think they can strong arm the DUP? They really don't understand them at all
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Mar 28, 2019 15:05
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mehall posted:You're not wrong that the SNP has taken the Labour vote in Scotland ("split" would be generous at this point), and I get the idea of preferring an outright Lab government, but the SNPs whipping operation is the strongest out there, if they made a coalition they wouldn't vote against it, whereas we've already seen what the neoliberal MPs under the Labour banner do, and most of Scotland would be neolibs from Labour. It's fair to say Scotland's left is taken by the SNP. I'm looking at the UK as a whole, where Scotland's SNP vote represents a split. I'm not aware of the candidates Labour puts forward in Scotland or whether they're neolib, but there's a possibility now the SNP is established that it'll poach candidates from the left as well as votes. While Scottish Labour then seems done for, having to deal with two separate parties is still an obstacle. Is there a possibility that the left wing elements of Labour and the SNP could merge fully into a party? If the answer to that is no, then thinking about why is a way to tease out the real divisions between the two parties that could even come to a head in a coalition.
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Mar 28, 2019 15:05
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NotJustANumber99 posted:Im not sure this is so common as to be a problem that someone else calling themselves european is going to ordinarily be mistaken for these unlikely weirdos. Well yeah but the apple store is called stormfront so what other people think of and what I, the person with terminal internet poisoning think of, are not necessarily the same.
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Mar 28, 2019 15:07
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Jose posted:its 100% the withdrawal agreement without the political declaration which is the actually important bit and includes the backstop Looks like you're right https://twitter.com/breeallegretti/status/1111259667286671365?s=21
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Mar 28, 2019 15:08
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Obliterati posted:I'm literally suggesting the alternative here, but if you're happy you're happy Who said I am happy? What you suggest is an alternative that yeah sure, I can see the appeal of but I still think that sometimes we miss the trees for the forest when it comes to ensuring a fair deal for the people who suffer under right wing governments. I guess the problem with my approach is that there is a large part of the population is politically uneducated and has no idea what they are voting for if they vote at all. But that doesn't change the fact that if the UK splintered like the SNP want, it would gently caress over far far more many people than it would ultimately help. Perhaps that line of thinking is flawed, I don't pretend to be any sort of expert in these matters. All I know is that nothing will change if we have huge chunks of the liberal voting base sat in their own little camps complaining about each other rather than working proactively together.
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Mar 28, 2019 15:08
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I can't say I have any idea what could be achieved by voting on the deal without the important bits that the EU mandated... Like that doesn't mean you got the deal through parliament you tits.
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Mar 28, 2019 15:09
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Azza Bamboo posted:Is there a possibility that the left wing elements of Labour and the SNP could merge fully into a party? This is many people's favoured post-indy option, but so long as one party is ScotNat and the other is convinced we're all secretly wanking to Ginger Hitler it'll no be happening.
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Mar 28, 2019 15:09
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Gonzo McFee posted:https://twitter.com/benton_dan/status/1111243057738014720 Ah yes Cameron was just "pootling along" while poors died all around him
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Mar 28, 2019 15:11
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OwlFancier posted:Well yeah but the apple store is called stormfront so what other people think of and what I, the person with terminal internet poisoning think of, are not necessarily the same. OK signs, and frog faces quickly turned into 'Grand Wizards' and 'Blueshirts' while nobody was watching or was blaming a dead Holocaust survivor for inventing antisemitism.
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Mar 28, 2019 15:11
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Guavanaut posted:'Blueshirts' Wait what are those?
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Mar 28, 2019 15:12
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OwlFancier posted:Wait what are those? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blueshirts
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Mar 28, 2019 15:13
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Jose posted:jfc now we've got The Saj, The Truss and The Gav If only we could watch the moment gavin tries to boss around the dup
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Mar 28, 2019 15:14
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This attempt by May should fail because it has all the same problems as her resigning. That some hard brexit nutter would now have totsl control of negotiations
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Mar 28, 2019 15:15
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Obliterati posted:This is many people's favoured post-indy option, but so long as one party is ScotNat and the other is convinced we're all secretly wanking to Ginger Hitler it'll no be happening. I'm in England. If independence is a given I then don't have to think about the SNP at all. I have to think about how to turn as many constituencies as possible red.
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Mar 28, 2019 15:16
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I feel like when your article has a whole paragraph about how you aren't fascists that's a bit self defeating.
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Mar 28, 2019 15:16
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JeremoudCorbynejad posted:Ah yes Cameron was just "pootling along" while poors died all around him Would you believe that people brought that up to him and he said that Cameron would have to "Back off" from austerity because it was becoming unpopular. Because of course none of it is ideological. Also these two are the CEO's of an app that polls teachers and a "Charity" that pushes Neoliberal reforms onto education.
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Mar 28, 2019 15:17
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OwlFancier posted:I feel like when your article has a whole paragraph about how you aren't fascists that's a bit self defeating. Article has a whole paragraph about how you aren't fascists Article image: 
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Mar 28, 2019 15:19
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Is this thread bad at ScotPol or are nationalists bad at this thread? 
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Mar 28, 2019 15:19
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are the scots and english still fighting itt
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Mar 28, 2019 15:19
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OwlFancier posted:Is that because everyone drives giant hummers or just bad drivers? To be honest it's not even hummers, it's pickups. Even if you only drive a mile down the road you are guaranteed to see a few enormous pickups on the road. It's not at all unusual to see these:  That's a "super duty" pickup - notice the extra set of wheels and extra width on the rear. They're loving gigantic. Also to give some context we just switched our driving licenses over to Canadian ones, and on the STANDARD full license with no special training, I am allowed to drive vehicles up to 11000kg and tow trailers up to 4600kg.
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Mar 28, 2019 15:20
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Reveilled posted:This essentially cuts both ways, the last labour leader, for example, said during the 2015 election that he was “not going to have a Labour government if it means a coalition or deals with the SNP”. The implication of that was that a minority Tory government would have been preferable to the Labour leader over a Labour-SNP coalition. At the last election, Corbyn said “there will be no coalition deal with the SNP and a Labour government.” 'coalition' and 'never made agreements' aren't the same thing though? Viz: the DUP, right now. (Well possibly not right now, who knows at the moment)
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Mar 28, 2019 15:22
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Azza Bamboo posted:It's fair to say Scotland's left is taken by the SNP. I'm looking at the UK as a whole, where Scotland's SNP vote represents a split. I'm not aware of the candidates Labour puts forward in Scotland or whether they're neolib, but there's a possibility now the SNP is established that it'll poach candidates from the left as well as votes. While Scottish Labour then seems done for, having to deal with two separate parties is still an obstacle. Scotlab trends more blairite than the UK party as a whole, which isn't ideal. The SNP does get a lot of left votes but I can honestly see this slipping slightly as a response to Corbynism- people vote party not candidate, of course, and the nats whole schtick was attacking Labour from the left during the Miliband years, which they can't do anymore. Other complicating factors: indyref positions have a huge impact on voting intention, with the SNP becoming the de facto 'yes' party (ofc) and the Tories (cons + unionist officially) becoming the 'No'. This really hurt Labour as we saw in 2015, though given the impressive recovery in 2017 how this will balance out in future is uncertain. I instinctively feel that the further we get from the indyref the better for Labour. Major tribalism/sectarianism between Labour and the SNP - they hate each other more than either hate the Tories, and it takes a lot to get people to switch sides. The last few years shows that this assumption is eroding a little though - SNP gains in 2015 were completely groundbreaking. The 'Scottish left' is actually considerably more diverse than the English, and it's wrong to assume that the SNP holds all the cards. Labour are obviously the big alternative, and while they shot themselves in the foot over the indyref I feel like they're recovering. Also the scottish greens are much more powerful than their English equivalents (and have better policies), though at the local/holyrood level. The RIC isn't a party but also represents a huge variety of pro-indy leftwingers, and has a lot of indirect cultural influence through offshoots like Bella Caledonia and commonspace.
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Mar 28, 2019 15:22
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What are the actual 'scotland-specific' issues lab/scotlab are failing to understand? I get that they're lovely blairite holdouts but the answer to that is more corbyn surely. Is the 2017 lab manifesto that objectionable to scotland?
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Mar 28, 2019 15:23
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Azza Bamboo posted:Article has a whole paragraph about how you aren't fascists 
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Mar 28, 2019 15:25
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Reveilled posted:This essentially cuts both ways, the last labour leader, for example, said during the 2015 election that he was “not going to have a Labour government if it means a coalition or deals with the SNP”. The implication of that was that a minority Tory government would have been preferable to the Labour leader over a Labour-SNP coalition. At the last election, Corbyn said “there will be no coalition deal with the SNP and a Labour government.” ThomasPaine posted:indyref I can see this from England left's point of view: Our left wing, Labour or coalition, cannot afford Scotland to leave the UK. From that frame of reference all of the above makes a little sense to me. It's not fair to Scotland to make their independence decisions from the outside and it's also not fair to the rest of the union to saddle us with the Tories. Azza Bamboo fucked around with this message at 15:29 on Mar 28, 2019 |
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Mar 28, 2019 15:26
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Communist Bear posted:Oh gosh well in that case sign me the gently caress up to our Saviour of Britain And All That's Good, The loving Labour Party. I think you just do it through the website, mate.
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Mar 28, 2019 15:27
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Rustybear posted:What are the actual 'scotland-specific' issues lab/scotlab are failing to understand? I get that they're lovely blairite holdouts but the answer to that is more corbyn surely. Is the 2017 lab manifesto that objectionable to scotland? This is the question I ask my Scottish SNP voting mates and I never get a concrete answer. In fact, several of them actually say that they have nothing against Corbyn or anything, but they just want independence because they do.
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Mar 28, 2019 15:27
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Rustybear posted:What are the actual 'scotland-specific' issues lab/scotlab are failing to understand? I get that they're lovely blairite holdouts but the answer to that is more corbyn surely. Is the 2017 lab manifesto that objectionable to scotland? Many of them are, like you say, blairite holdouts who hate Corbyn and constantly say things that undermine him and by extension the party's electoral chances. More importantly, Labour's approach to pro-independence arguments is the same skin-deep knee jerk reactionary rubbish you see itt. They would do well to have a more measured and thoughtful policy than 'lol no idiots'
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Mar 28, 2019 15:28
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Surprise Giraffe posted:Jesus christ, another council doing that? Thought it was just Northampton pouring funds into the void. Wonder how many others there are. What the gently caress is going on with these people? Not to say that Aberdeen City Council didn't have problems under Labour, but this guy is full of poo poo. ACC has been hit harder by cuts than any other SLA and the SNP were responsible for that; TECA was commissioned seven years ago before the worst of the cuts came in - in fact I think the initial idea was put forward under the LD/SNP coalition as far back as 2010 - and was badly needed anyway as the existing AECC is a complete dump in a terrible location; and the public transport has been run by First Group for decades, which should tell you everything you need to know about that. Also the plan to close all the branch libraries was axed, thankfully.
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Mar 28, 2019 15:30
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mehall posted:I'm sorry, what numbers are being used that so many UKIP get returned, especially in Scotland? I'm assuming that's from an EU parliament election. Basically the only people who vote in those are the people who really hate the EU.
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Mar 28, 2019 15:30
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Azza Bamboo posted:Article has a whole paragraph about how you aren't fascists feedmegin posted:I'm assuming that's from an EU parliament election. Basically the only people who vote in those are the people who really hate the EU. Also more money was spent in general.
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Mar 28, 2019 15:31
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feedmegin posted:'coalition' and 'never made agreements' aren't the same thing though? Viz: the DUP, right now. (Well possibly not right now, who knows at the moment) The agreement between the DUP and Conservatives was a confidence and supply arrangement, which was also specifically ruled out by Corbyn.
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Mar 28, 2019 15:32
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ThomasPaine posted:Many of them are, like you say, blairite holdouts who hate Corbyn and constantly say things that undermine him and by extension the party's electoral chances. Well pro/anti indyref2 is a given; I meant beyond that. The argument for indyref2 is supposed to be we need it because the Westminster parties don't currently and will never understand all these other things that need sorting. Not trying to say independence doesn't look tempting given the housefire that is westminster politics rn just that it seems like the interests of the average working person in say Manchester and Glasgow still largely align?
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Mar 28, 2019 15:33
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Is the support for independence mostly about trying to separate from Westminster, or is it specifically the threat of Tories? Or is it a thing where people want to beat their chest and be Scottish for cultural reasons?
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Mar 28, 2019 15:36
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Azza Bamboo posted:I can see this from England left's point of view: Our left wing, Labour or coalition, cannot afford Scotland to leave the UK. From that frame of reference all of the above makes a little sense to me. It's not fair to Scotland to make their independence decisions from the outside and it's also not fair to the rest of the union to saddle us with the Tories. While I broadly agree they'd win far more friends up here by taking a less hostile line towards the pro-indy lobby (not all of who are nationalists). The one thing people hate up here is the the idea that England is more important so whatever we want we have to just suck it up because it might make things harder down there. There's an implicit message of 'our needs are more important than yours' in that, and a perception of that attitude is what a lot of Nat support is built on. Accepting that Scotland has the right to hold referendums on its future at it's own leisure would do more to ensure any such referendum failed in the future than anything else.
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Mar 28, 2019 15:36
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I consider myself European to the point that I would definitely buy this shirt if it wasnt so hideously expensive and a brand name: https://www.nn07.com/tshirts/black-ethan-print-tee-3208.html
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Mar 28, 2019 15:37
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