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Barent posted:But MUH ART Yes
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Mar 29, 2019 22:06
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A Dark Souls where all the numbers were the same except you only take 1 damage from enemy attacks would be a fundamentally different game, because vast amounts of its mechanics become irrelevant.
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Mar 29, 2019 22:07
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Dabir posted:A Dark Souls where all the numbers were the same except you only take 1 damage from enemy attacks would be a fundamentally different game, because vast amounts of its mechanics become irrelevant. Then don't play on that mode.
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Mar 29, 2019 22:08
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SgtSteel91 posted:But I do wonder if adding an easy mode would inform developer decisions with, say, enemy placements or boss mechanics, even unconsciously. It should, because they should be thinking about it regardless. I'll just keep pointing towards DMC5 a bunch while this discussion happens.
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Mar 29, 2019 22:09
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Dabir posted:A Dark Souls where all the numbers were the same except you only take 1 damage from enemy attacks would be a fundamentally different game, because vast amounts of its mechanics become irrelevant. They don’t have to be this extreme either. Reducing enemy damage by even 25 percent would change the nature of the game!
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Mar 29, 2019 22:09
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CuddlyZombie posted:They don’t have to be this extreme either. Reducing enemy damage by even 25 percent would change the nature of the game! Who cares? YOU DONT HAVE TO PLAY ON THAT MODE
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Mar 29, 2019 22:10
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again i will point to celeste as a game that is punishingly difficult and also has a robust assist/easy mode. if there were no assist mode, i probably wouldnt have noticed it. the fact that it is there has only made me think huh, that's nice. i have not heard anyone suggest that celeste is compromised either as a piece of art or a gameplay experience due to the existence of the assist mode. your idea that adding an easy mode fundamentally changes it as a piece of art is, at the least, not objectively true.
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Mar 29, 2019 22:10
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Dabir posted:A Dark Souls where all the numbers were the same except you only take 1 damage from enemy attacks would be a fundamentally different game, because vast amounts of its mechanics become irrelevant. Fortunately there are options for difficulty other than "nothing can ever do anything to you"
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Mar 29, 2019 22:10
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Dabir posted:A Dark Souls where all the numbers were the same except you only take 1 damage from enemy attacks would be a fundamentally different game, because vast amounts of its mechanics become irrelevant. That's reducing the argument to the absurd, and somehow it STILL doesn't change the fact that you have the option to just...not do that.
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Mar 29, 2019 22:10
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Gyro Zeppeli posted:Then don't play on that mode. The way I take it to mean is that the person who played Darks Souls on normal mode and fell in love with the series is not going to be the same experience the person who played the same game on easy mode is going to have. But maybe the person who plays on easy mode isn’t into learning the combat mechanics like the person who plays it on normal and rather look at the scenery or collect all the items for lore
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Mar 29, 2019 22:11
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Frankly, all this proves is that Souls Fans Are The Worst, as it's always been my personal belief.
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Mar 29, 2019 22:13
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SgtSteel91 posted:The way I take it to mean is that the person who played Darks Souls on easy mode and fell in love with the series is not going to be the same experience the person who played the same game on easy mode is going to have. Exactly. The person who beat all of the bosses covering in a corner while summoned players did all the work also had a fundamentally different experience than I did beating the game by myself.
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Mar 29, 2019 22:13
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somepartsareme posted:again i will point to celeste as a game that is punishingly difficult and also has a robust assist/easy mode. if there were no assist mode, i probably wouldnt have noticed it. the fact that it is there has only made me think huh, that's nice. i have not heard anyone suggest that celeste is compromised either as a piece of art or a gameplay experience due to the existence of the assist mode. your idea that adding an easy mode fundamentally changes it as a piece of art is, at the least, not objectively true. The assist mode in Celeste ultimately didn’t hurt me but it sure made me enjoy the opening less, it made me wonder if the game would eventually use it as a crutch for an uneven difficulty curve which made me more reluctant to engage it in its own terms. Fortunately as I played it turned out not to be the case but I would have had a smoother beginner experience without it.
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Mar 29, 2019 22:14
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My stake in this convo is that DMC5 is cool
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Mar 29, 2019 22:14
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CuddlyZombie posted:I think hacking in cheat engine or whatever makes no sense and is a ridiculous thing to do, you’re just ruining it for yourself, like spoiling the mystery at the end of a mystery novel, only at least with that you can look out for foreshadowing I guess So the only difference between ruining the game for the real gamers and ruining the game for yourself is the tacit approval of the creator. You’re arguing for the creators to ostracize less capable players so more capable players can feel superior. Gross. Andrast posted:also bring back cheat codes Punch in the Konami code on the title screen, and the title becomes Sekiro die Thirty Times. That way five year old Mystic Mongol can see the whole game, and Real Gamers don’t have to share their big boy games with... other people who also bought those games for their own computers.
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Mar 29, 2019 22:14
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I'm just making the point that "just changing numbers" actually does alter a game more significantly than you might realise. Not going to come down on either side of this argument.
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Mar 29, 2019 22:14
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Captain Baal posted:My stake in this convo is that DMC5 is cool I mean honestly that’s mine too. Go play DMC5 everyone. It has difficulty modes! Even harder ones too if you want!!!
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Mar 29, 2019 22:16
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Mystic Mongol posted:So the only difference between ruining the game for the real gamers and ruining the game for yourself is the tacit approval of the creator. You’re arguing for the creators to ostracize less capable players so more capable players can feel superior. Gross. The gross thing is putting words in my mouth. Knock that poo poo off. How is that at all what I said.
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Mar 29, 2019 22:16
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Dias posted:It should, because they should be thinking about it regardless. I'll just keep pointing towards DMC5 a bunch while this discussion happens. How does DMC5 do it? Isn’t there some mechanic where the combat music gets added to/better the higher your combo rank? Does the easy mode there disable that or something so you can hear the SSS version of the music no matter your skill level?
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Mar 29, 2019 22:16
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Yeah I have a hard time enjoying bayonetta and dmc because even when I beat it I feel unaccomplished for not getting a good grade. It made me drop off of bayo 2 completely and while I got dmc5 I haven’t felt the desire to get far into it.
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Mar 29, 2019 22:17
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I’ve also hear from the Gamer crowd to watch a gameplay movie/Let’s Play
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Mar 29, 2019 22:22
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It's pretty hosed that people are actively arguing in favor of gatekeeping art itt
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Mar 29, 2019 22:23
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CuddlyZombie posted:The assist mode in Celeste ultimately didn’t hurt me but it sure made me enjoy the opening less, it made me wonder if the game would eventually use it as a crutch for an uneven difficulty curve which made me more reluctant to engage it in its own terms. Fortunately as I played it turned out not to be the case but I would have had a smoother beginner experience without it. CuddlyZombie posted:Yeah I have a hard time enjoying bayonetta and dmc because even when I beat it I feel unaccomplished for not getting a good grade. It made me drop off of bayo 2 completely and while I got dmc5 I haven’t felt the desire to get far into it. it sounds like this might be your own problem
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Mar 29, 2019 22:24
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somepartsareme posted:it sounds like this might be your own problem Only as far as souls games not having easy modes is your own.
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Mar 29, 2019 22:25
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CuddlyZombie posted:Only as far as souls games not having easy modes is your own. 
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Mar 29, 2019 22:25
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Mar 29, 2019 22:26
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You just know if the next soulsborne game had selectable difficulties, these same people would say the normal mode sucks because the overall game had to be ‘dumbed down’ for the easy mode
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Mar 29, 2019 22:29
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Roth posted:It's pretty hosed that people are actively arguing in favor of gatekeeping art itt its more like wishing picasso paintings had less weird versions for easier interpretation
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Mar 29, 2019 22:30
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scary ghost dog posted:its more like wishing picasso paintings had less weird versions for easier interpretation Yes that's exactly it good job
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Mar 29, 2019 22:32
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CuddlyZombie posted:Only as far as souls games not having easy modes is your own. people being prevented from enjoying fun games because they can't handle the mechanical difficulty for whatever reason and the devs didnt make any allowance for that, versus you preventing yourself from enjoying fun games because a ranking system makes you feel inferior or something
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Mar 29, 2019 22:32
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looking at guernica and wishing it had labels on it
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Mar 29, 2019 22:33
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somepartsareme posted:people being prevented from enjoying fun games because they can't handle the mechanical difficulty for whatever reason and the devs didnt make any allowance for that, versus you preventing yourself from enjoying fun games because a ranking system makes you feel inferior or something the argument is that its less fun and harder to enjoy if the difficulty is scaled back
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Mar 29, 2019 22:33
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a thesis yet to be disproven
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Mar 29, 2019 22:34
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Is Sekiro less art for those people who are at good games than people who suck and die a lot so they need to overcome the challenge more?
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Mar 29, 2019 22:35
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scary ghost dog posted:a thesis yet to be disproven pls prove why having options to tune the difficulty for different peoples level of mechanical proficiency is objectively better than not having the options
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Mar 29, 2019 22:36
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Andrast posted:Is Sekiro less art for those people who are at good games than people who suck and die a lot so they need to overcome the challenge more? I certainly am glad I'm not someone like LobosJr. who is so good he breezes through the games pretty much instantly.
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Mar 29, 2019 22:36
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literally nobody is saying games should be easier across the board so more people can enjoy them. they want the option. and if the response to that is "the resources to do that aren't there" then say that instead of complaining about entitled gamers
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Mar 29, 2019 22:37
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Andrast posted:Is Sekiro less art for those people who are at good games than people who suck and die a lot so they need to overcome the challenge more? The paradox of the average Souls fan. "Actually, they're very easy games. I beat every boss while blindfolded." "Wait, no, don't include an easier version, the extreme difficulty is the point"
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Mar 29, 2019 22:37
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somepartsareme posted:pls prove why having options to tune the difficulty for different peoples level of mechanical proficiency is objectively better than not having the options It's not, though. It's subjectively better. Or subjectively worse.
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Mar 29, 2019 22:37
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This has gotten cyclical and dumb.
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Mar 29, 2019 22:37
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