Devil May Cry 5: V has come too

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toasterwarrior: Nov 11, 2011

Hold up, raw blocking will get you killed in Hell & Hell?

# ? Mar 29, 2019 12:30

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# ? Jun 10, 2024 02:57

AccountingNightmare: Oct 2, 2006; NOT ENOUGH RED ORBS ARGH

toasterwarrior posted:

Hold up, raw blocking will get you killed in Hell & Hell?

At first it won't but it'll drain ALL of your Devil Trigger instead of a small amount like normal. Royal Guard is almost unusable on HAH mode unless you're perfect with your guards every time. Riding Nightmare as V is also a baaaaaad idea because as soon as Nightmare gets hit, you'll also lose all your Devil Trigger. But reading poetry while watching Nightmare cover the screen with explosions is more fun anyway. :v:

On one hand, it feels almost cruel that getting hit ever in HAH mode voids your "No Continues" bonus. On the other, I'm really enjoying the challenge of trying to S-rank this mode in DMC5. I hated Hell and Hell in 4 but now I'm finding the difficulty to be extremely rewarding. I think the major difference is that I think the enemy design is better overall this time around.

Edit: In response to design complaints, I don't think Hell and Hell mode is particularly unfair but you gotta admit, it is kinda silly that slightly mistiming a block in Hell and Hell mode is a big no-no, but using Faust hat to trivialize bosses is a-okay. :v:

They should probably nerf this thing.

AccountingNightmare fucked around with this message at 13:13 on Mar 29, 2019

# ? Mar 29, 2019 12:57

toasterwarrior: Nov 11, 2011

Well I've just lost my will to play Hell & Hell :/

# ? Mar 29, 2019 13:10

CharlestonJew: Jul 7, 2011; Illegal Hen

I think I'll only try out Hell and Hell if I ever fully S rank the other difficulties, which is going to take a while I think. But for now I'm just taking a break, waiting until Capcom hopefully addresses these constant loading screens.

# ? Mar 29, 2019 13:24

Spergatory: Oct 28, 2012

toasterwarrior posted:

Hold up, raw blocking will get you killed in Hell & Hell?

Instant uncancelable guard break animation along with losing 100% of your DT bar no matter how much you had. It doesn't kill you outright, but it makes Royal Guard basically unusable unless you are perfect every time.

Again, Dante has several mechanics designed around choosing to take hits in this game. The biggest and most obvious is Royal Guard. Cavalier is another. The weapon is high damage and stun but laggy as hell, but you get super armor to make up for it. If you're okay with taking the damage, you can use the weapon anyway and not be punished by the style system for it. You don't lose style from getting hit, you lose style from flinching. Devil Trigger also prevents you from flinching and does not penalize your style of you take most hits during it. Devil Trigger isn't as useful on Hell and Hell, but it at least has other benefits. Cavalier is basically unusable.

Sin Devil Trigger is another. It's moves are slow and uncancelable, and you have a large recovery time when it ends, but it hits like a truck, and you get absolute super armor and a huge defense boost. It's literally designed to be a tank form. In Hell and Hell, you're a goddamn idiot if you use SDT, especially on a boss. The transformation animation takes the camera away from the action for several seconds, so it's entirely possible to transform and instantly get hit by an attack you didn't know was coming as soon as the animation ends. It's only real safe move is the invincible super move, and most bosses recover from that fast enough to unavoidably hit you during the recovery time. There's another fun game mechanic out the window.

I'm not railing against it because it's stupidly, pointlessly hard, although it is. Heaven and Hell is also a badly designed game mode. It always has been. It's easy to the point of being boring rather than frustrating to the point of being anti-fun, but it is still bad design in a similar way to Hell and Hell; they are both clearly gimmick modes that were implemented as an afterthought and are not how the game was designed to be played. That's why they are bad. Easy or hard has nothing to do with it; it's whether or not it's fun to play and feels like it gels with the rest of the game's design philosophy.

EDIT: Hell and Hell would make more sense if it had the same revive and checkpoint system as the rest of the game, even with its flaws. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask you to perfect any one fight or a small section of a level, and it would potentially give you something to do with the dozens of gold orbs you probably have saved up from other modes. Hell, even if they were to implement the optional gold/red orb revive system without mid level checkpoints, it would still make more sense to me, because then you'd be heavily incentivized to actually use those rather than choosing to give up, because you'd lose more progress. As it stands now, Hell and Hell feels completely divorced from the rest of the game's design philosophy. Everything else in the game tells me that it's okay to make mistakes in the process of getting better, that I can recover from errors. Only Hell and Hell says "gently caress you. Do it perfect or don't bother."

Spergatory fucked around with this message at 14:05 on Mar 29, 2019

# ? Mar 29, 2019 13:30

Jack Trades: Nov 30, 2010

H&H does sound like it has a pretty unreasonable amount of difficulty in it but on the other hand, I don't think there's anything wrong with including an unreasonable difficulty mode for crazy people in it.

# ? Mar 29, 2019 14:14

Bust Rodd: Oct 21, 2008; by VideoGames

I�m sorry but you can beat H&H by just using Trickster forever. H&H is designed to not get hit, and so playing the game in a way where you might get hit is the suboptimal way to play it. It�s not unreasonable to expect the game to ask you to play differently when the game itself is now playing differently.

Also H&H has always been the optional mode for people who made it through DMD. Complaining that it�s poorly designed just means it�s not for you, and that�s ok. Insisting that the problem is with the game and not your approach means your less likely to adapt and overcome and more likely to burn out instead of changing your approach.

# ? Mar 29, 2019 14:30

marshmallow creep: Dec 10, 2008; I've been sitting here for 5 mins trying to think of a joke to make but I just realised the animators of Mass Effect already did it for me

I just wanted to post that after I finished this game, my son decided he wanted to play. When he's playing Nero, he's basically playing the game like it's DMC2. He forgets he has a sword half the time and uses his gun for most problems--unless he has the Punchline or the Ragtime, and then he goes wild with them. At the moment he's stymied by how to fight Fury as Nero.

However, I'm convinced he's better with V than I am. He's just casually sauntering to the side of all the enemy attacks like they're not even there, his style ranking never dipping below SS. I might start playing V more like he does.

# ? Mar 29, 2019 14:48

Bust Rodd: Oct 21, 2008; by VideoGames

V�s main gimmick, pageantry aside, is that he can shoot and attack simultaneously. Nero & Dante can�t really do that the same way, so when I see videos of V doing one or the other instead of basically spamming both at all times I get antsy.

# ? Mar 29, 2019 14:56

Pomp: Apr 3, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

Spergatory posted:

Instant uncancelable guard break animation along with losing 100% of your DT bar no matter how much you had. It doesn't kill you outright, but it makes Royal Guard basically unusable unless you are perfect every time.

Again, Dante has several mechanics designed around choosing to take hits in this game. The biggest and most obvious is Royal Guard. Cavalier is another. The weapon is high damage and stun but laggy as hell, but you get super armor to make up for it. If you're okay with taking the damage, you can use the weapon anyway and not be punished by the style system for it. You don't lose style from getting hit, you lose style from flinching. Devil Trigger also prevents you from flinching and does not penalize your style of you take most hits during it. Devil Trigger isn't as useful on Hell and Hell, but it at least has other benefits. Cavalier is basically unusable.

Sin Devil Trigger is another. It's moves are slow and uncancelable, and you have a large recovery time when it ends, but it hits like a truck, and you get absolute super armor and a huge defense boost. It's literally designed to be a tank form. In Hell and Hell, you're a goddamn idiot if you use SDT, especially on a boss. The transformation animation takes the camera away from the action for several seconds, so it's entirely possible to transform and instantly get hit by an attack you didn't know was coming as soon as the animation ends. It's only real safe move is the invincible super move, and most bosses recover from that fast enough to unavoidably hit you during the recovery time. There's another fun game mechanic out the window.

I'm not railing against it because it's stupidly, pointlessly hard, although it is. Heaven and Hell is also a badly designed game mode. It always has been. It's easy to the point of being boring rather than frustrating to the point of being anti-fun, but it is still bad design in a similar way to Hell and Hell; they are both clearly gimmick modes that were implemented as an afterthought and are not how the game was designed to be played. That's why they are bad. Easy or hard has nothing to do with it; it's whether or not it's fun to play and feels like it gels with the rest of the game's design philosophy.

EDIT: Hell and Hell would make more sense if it had the same revive and checkpoint system as the rest of the game, even with its flaws. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask you to perfect any one fight or a small section of a level, and it would potentially give you something to do with the dozens of gold orbs you probably have saved up from other modes. Hell, even if they were to implement the optional gold/red orb revive system without mid level checkpoints, it would still make more sense to me, because then you'd be heavily incentivized to actually use those rather than choosing to give up, because you'd lose more progress. As it stands now, Hell and Hell feels completely divorced from the rest of the game's design philosophy. Everything else in the same tells me that it's okay to make mistakes in the process of getting better, that I can recover from errors. Only Hell and Hell says "gently caress you. Do it perfect or don't bother."

SDT is entirely useable with quadruple s, Royal guard is the easiest to use it has ever been, and I guarantee you can find H&H runs using cav

If you're getting hit on the reg then H&H isn't for you, which is why I've barely touched it. H&H isn't for git gud, it's for being good

# ? Mar 29, 2019 15:05

Spergatory: Oct 28, 2012

Bust Rodd posted:

I’m sorry but you can beat H&H by just using Trickster forever. H&H is designed to not get hit, and so playing the game in a way where you might get hit is the suboptimal way to play it. It’s not unreasonable to expect the game to ask you to play differently when the game itself is now playing differently.

Also H&H has always been the optional mode for people who made it through DMD. Complaining that it’s poorly designed just means it’s not for you, and that’s ok. Insisting that the problem is with the game and not your approach means your less likely to adapt and overcome and more likely to burn out instead of changing your approach.

It's not just that it's bad, it's that it's bad and it doesn't have to be. A few different decisions regarding the way death is handled could've turned Hell and Hell into a fun and exhilarating challenge, as opposed to a slog that encourages safe and boring gameplay, the literal antithesis of what DMC is supposed to be about. I mean, you want to talk about optimal gameplay? You can S Rank mission 2 on Hell and Hell by using Color Up exclusively to deal damage. You will never even come close to getting hit. It's optimal, but it's not exactly fun. And that's what I feel like the mode in its current form encourages.

They fixed a lot of other stuff about the series in this game. I guess I just wanted them to fix this, too.

Pomp posted:

SDT is entirely useable with quadruple s, Royal guard is the easiest to use it has ever been, and I guarantee you can find H&H runs using cav

If you're getting hit on the reg then H&H isn't for you, which is why I've barely touched it. H&H isn't for git gud, it's for being good

The entire reason Royal Guard is now usable is because you aren't punished for guarding early anymore. H&H takes that away.

# ? Mar 29, 2019 15:07

Pomp: Apr 3, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

marshmallow creep posted:

I just wanted to post that after I finished this game, my son decided he wanted to play. When he's playing Nero, he's basically playing the game like it's DMC2. He forgets he has a sword half the time and uses his gun for most problems--unless he has the Punchline or the Ragtime, and then he goes wild with them. At the moment he's stymied by how to fight Fury as Nero.

However, I'm convinced he's better with V than I am. He's just casually sauntering to the side of all the enemy attacks like they're not even there, his style ranking never dipping below SS. I might start playing V more like he does.

Some people were born 2 zone

# ? Mar 29, 2019 15:12

exquisite tea: Apr 21, 2007; Carly shook her glass, willing the ice to melt. "You still haven't told me what the mission is."

She leaned forward. "We are going to assassinate the bad men of Hollywood."

V would be an excellent guest character for a fighting game not by Capcom.

# ? Mar 29, 2019 15:13

Pomp: Apr 3, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

exquisite tea posted:

V would be an excellent guest character for a fighting game not by Capcom.

Does bbtag have a puppet character yet?

# ? Mar 29, 2019 15:17

RBX: Jan 2, 2011

Spergatory posted:

It's not just that it's bad, it's that it's bad and it doesn't have to be. A few different decisions regarding the way death is handled could've turned Hell and Hell into a fun and exhilarating challenge, as opposed to a slog that encourages safe and boring gameplay, the literal antithesis of what DMC is supposed to be about. I mean, you want to talk about optimal gameplay? You can S Rank mission 2 on Hell and Hell by using Color Up exclusively to deal damage. You will never even come close to getting hit. It's optimal, but it's not exactly fun. And that's what I feel like the mode in its current form encourages.

They fixed a lot of other stuff about the series in this game. I guess I just wanted them to fix this, too.

The entire reason Royal Guard is now usable is because you aren't punished for guarding early anymore. H&H takes that away.

If you think the point of H&H isn't to style on people while knowing they could kill you on one hit then it isn't the mode for you. Besides the game has only been out for less than a month, you're kinda trying to do too much too fast. Get better first.

# ? Mar 29, 2019 15:30

Dias: Feb 20, 2011; by sebmojo

Hell and Hell is a bad gimmick mode, but it's kinda its point.

# ? Mar 29, 2019 15:42

Jack Trades: Nov 30, 2010

exquisite tea posted:

V would be an excellent guest character for a fighting game not by Capcom.

V in Tekken 7, do it Harada! I dare you, I double dare you.

# ? Mar 29, 2019 16:31

ThisIsACoolGuy: Nov 2, 2010; Shaped like a friend

Took break partway through DMD but In the H+H modes what happens when you lose all 3 GLORBS?

Do you start the entire chapter over or just get booted to a checkpoint?

# ? Mar 29, 2019 16:35

Spergatory: Oct 28, 2012

ThisIsACoolGuy posted:

Took break partway through DMD but In the H+H modes what happens when you lose all 3 GLORBS?

Do you start the entire chapter over or just get booted to a checkpoint?

Mission restart. If you're on console, that means you have to load the pre mission cutscene, skip that, load the mission start screen, press start, load the mission opening scene, skip that, and start the level from the beginning.

If you have a really good PC with an SSD, then the loading is not as much of a concern for you and also I hate you personally. :argh:

# ? Mar 29, 2019 16:38

CharlestonJew: Jul 7, 2011; Illegal Hen

Jack Trades posted:

V in Tekken 7, do it Harada! I dare you, I double dare you.

you just need to be the 1st person to tweet Harada the next time he asks for guest character recommendations

# ? Mar 29, 2019 16:42

Pirate Jet: May 2, 2010

Spergatory posted:

The entire reason Royal Guard is now usable is because you aren't punished for guarding early anymore. H&H takes that away.

Now usable? It was intensely good in 3 and 4 and it might be straight up overpowered in 5.

# ? Mar 29, 2019 17:34

Fellblade: Apr 28, 2009

Pirate Jet posted:

Now usable? It was intensely good in 3 and 4 and it might be straight up overpowered in 5.

Not usable as in �it was bad�, usable as in �you don�t need frame perfect inputs to make it worth using�.

# ? Mar 29, 2019 17:51

toasterwarrior: Nov 11, 2011

JUMP

BLOCKS

# ? Mar 29, 2019 18:12

K8.0: Feb 26, 2004; Her Majesty's 56th Regiment of Foot

Royal Guard was in practice useless because it was just dodging with like 1/5th the iframes. If you've ground the game that hard you're already done with it.

# ? Mar 29, 2019 18:16

exquisite tea: Apr 21, 2007; Carly shook her glass, willing the ice to melt. "You still haven't told me what the mission is."

She leaned forward. "We are going to assassinate the bad men of Hollywood."

Pomp posted:

Does bbtag have a puppet character yet?

V would be the perfect guest character for Soul Calibur 6 and it's not only because I've already put 100 hours into that game.

1. Already in 3-D.
2. Brand new assortment of stylish canes to choose from.
3. Fulfills niche left behind by much less cool character ZWEI.
4. Everybody will ignore V's base model and just make a pervy anime bikini CaS anyway.

# ? Mar 29, 2019 18:19

Pomp: Apr 3, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

K8.0 posted:

Royal Guard was in practice useless because it was just dodging with like 1/5th the iframes. If you've ground the game that hard you're already done with it.

That's exactly why parrying is cool tho

# ? Mar 29, 2019 18:20

Sindai: Jan 24, 2007; i want to achieve immortality through not dying

K8.0 posted:

Royal Guard was in practice useless because it was just dodging with like 1/5th the iframes. If you've ground the game that hard you're already done with it.

Yeah this was why I never used it until 5, and even in 5 it's harder than just jumping or side dodging, but it almost feels like a fair trade for massive perfect release damage.

# ? Mar 29, 2019 18:29

toasterwarrior: Nov 11, 2011

man gently caress mission 12, literally no checkpoints before the loving boss

already have to deal with the most arcane style point scoring, now i have to do multiple bullshit fights perfectly

# ? Mar 29, 2019 18:41

Dias: Feb 20, 2011; by sebmojo

Pomp posted:

That's exactly why parrying is cool tho

Sure! It's also why most people never bothered with it, which is more the point. I think it's good when games have extremely hard to use but extremely rewarding mechanics just so you can show off, but DMC5 kinda made RG a plausible style for everyone, which is pretty cool for people like me.

# ? Mar 29, 2019 18:43

Pomp: Apr 3, 2012; by Fluffdaddy

toasterwarrior posted:

man gently caress mission 12, literally no checkpoints before the loving boss

already have to deal with the most arcane style point scoring, now i have to do multiple bullshit fights perfectly

The boss gives you a shitload of points, I went on at around 4600 and came out with 5500+no continue bonus

Dias posted:

Sure! It's also why most people never bothered with it, which is more the point. I think it's good when games have extremely hard to use but extremely rewarding mechanics just so you can show off, but DMC5 kinda made RG a plausible style for everyone, which is pretty cool for people like me.

Im extremely for the changes, I never touched RG either, but it was far from useless beforehand

# ? Mar 29, 2019 18:59

RBX: Jan 2, 2011

https://twitter.com/DevilMayCry/status/1111644180269285378

# ? Mar 29, 2019 19:53

Barent: Jun 15, 2007; Never die in vain.

I wrote JACKPOT!!! in the final comments section of the survey

# ? Mar 29, 2019 19:54

Phantasium: Dec 27, 2012

how come the highest option on the multiple choice ones isn't "exceeded my expectations"

# ? Mar 29, 2019 20:01

toasterwarrior: Nov 11, 2011

Holy poo poo, loving finally. Even Urizen was pissing me the gently caress off with his bullshit homing tentacle garbage.

6486 points. Thanks for getting me to move on and be happy with fight scores close to 5k, if not above it, Pomp.

Two more lovely missions (14 and 18) and I'll never have to give a poo poo about S-ranking missions anymore...until new characters come in...

# ? Mar 29, 2019 20:13

Dias: Feb 20, 2011; by sebmojo

Pomp posted:

The boss gives you a shitload of points, I went on at around 4600 and came out with 5500+no continue bonus

Im extremely for the changes, I never touched RG either, but it was far from useless beforehand

I think useless is just bad wording, but it was very punishing to learn and you could make do with other options, so it felt a bit redundant? I like M19 in this game since it actually feels like RG is one of your best tools for dealing with it.

# ? Mar 29, 2019 20:14