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scary ghost dog posted:im not the one arguing in bad faith. you guys are deadset on proving yourselves right in the face of all evidence and resorting to emotional appeals in absence of realistic counterpoints
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Mar 30, 2019 00:05
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somepartsareme posted:Yes. His motivations are understood. People can disagree with how valid they are. Read my post again i think youre arguing that a game being more difficult for some people is a bad thing? is that it? i want to be sure of your point before i attempt to argue against it since you like to move goalposts.
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Mar 30, 2019 00:06
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Captain Invictus posted:And you're an exclusionary nincompoop who can't stand the idea of there being difficulty options for different players so more people can see The Content. That's all it is, your weird gamer pride is upset that people might not have EARNED their way through a video game the same way you did im not interested in gatekeeping, im just arguing for the intent of the developers, which is that all players should have the same experience with their game. i would no doubt select easy mode for my first playthrough if it were offered in dark souls 4, in the same way that i summon help for bosses i struggle with in dark souls 3
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Mar 30, 2019 00:09
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No I'm just going to laugh about how you seem to think accessibility refers to being able to purchase and start up the game
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Mar 30, 2019 00:10
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somepartsareme posted:No I'm just going to laugh about how you seem to think accessibility refers to being able to purchase and start up the game it has rebindable keys and is compatible with the xbox adaptable controller. its accessible. its just not easy.
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Mar 30, 2019 00:12
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scary ghost dog posted:im not the one arguing in bad faith. you guys are deadset on proving yourselves right in the face of all evidence and resorting to emotional appeals in absence of realistic counterpoints Emotional appeals? I'll give you a loving emotional appeal, you miserable poo poo. I knew a woman who died. Bone cancer, lung cancer, a different bone cancer somehow, obesity, and also some sort of muscular distrophy I don't know the details of, all at the age of seventy. She died real slow--she spent the last year in her apartment, being cared for by her husband, unable to leave. She had good days and bad days, and on the good days she would fade in and out. She couldn't hold a book up to read it, which was hell for a writer. She couldn't watch television because she missed too much of the plot. She couldn't go places. The long, But she could still play video games. Skyrim moved at exactly her pace. When she was active, she could play the games she'd loved since before most of us goons were born. And when she faded, or drifted off, or when holding the controller limply in her lap was too much, that was fine. Accessibility settings had left her character invincible. Dialog didn't auto-proceed, so if she got tired part way through a conversation, it would patiently wait for her to come back. Combat, travel, inventory management, all of it would advance only when she was there. She spent the end of her life fighting the Draughr. She was lucky--Skyrim was a game that would accommodate her. If she had been playing one of Hidetaka Miyazaki's games, he wouldn't have allowed her to ruin his artistic vision, and a dying old woman would have been stripped of one of the few pleasures she still had. So Hidetake Miyazaki can go gently caress himself. And if you want to say she wasn't playing the game right, you can go gently caress yourself too.
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Mar 30, 2019 00:13
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Mystic Mongol posted:Emotional appeals? I'll give you a loving emotional appeal, you miserable poo poo. drat you sure showed him that you're not using emotional appeals???? this post is stupid and so are you. gently caress you. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Mar 30, 2019 00:14
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I feel like people are digging a bit too deep with this topic atm
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Mar 30, 2019 00:15
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Mystic Mongol posted:Emotional appeals? I'll give you a loving emotional appeal, you miserable poo poo. sorry to hear that, im glad she had fun playing skyrim. i dont think it was necessary to call me a miserable poo poo or tell me to go gently caress myself
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Mar 30, 2019 00:16
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CuddlyZombie posted:drat you sure showed him that you're not using emotional appeals???? they specifically said they were showing him an emotional appeal, so gently caress you too
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Mar 30, 2019 00:16
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scary ghost dog posted:sorry to hear that, im glad she had fun playing skyrim. i dont think it was necessary to call me a miserable poo poo or tell me to go gently caress myself Yeah, it was a little much. I guess I'm angrier at zombie than you, man. Sorry. And also death. e: Thank you for the condolences.
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Mar 30, 2019 00:17
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250 posts in an afternoon jesus christ. Wha happun?
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Mar 30, 2019 00:19
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Grouchio posted:250 posts in an afternoon jesus christ. Wha happun? Nothing good.
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Mar 30, 2019 00:19
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Mystic Mongol posted:Yeah, it was a little much. I guess I'm angrier at zombie than you, man. Sorry. it sounds like she enjoyed impassioned debates so i hope she would have enjoyed this one
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Mar 30, 2019 00:21
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Grouchio posted:250 posts in an afternoon jesus christ. Wha happun? Pat make dumb twitter post. Nothing of value was gained or lost
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Mar 30, 2019 00:21
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scary ghost dog posted:also stop using the word accessibility, the game is literally accessible to all players Lmao you literally don't know what words mean and can't parse half the arguments being made and are now trying to Logic and Reason your way out of getting very very mad that someone doesn't enjoy a thing as much as you think they should. Please just cry post, it's way better than trying to turn sand into gold and explain your brain demons as Truth and Fact. CuddlyZombie posted:drat you sure showed him that you're not using emotional appeals???? You didn't even try to read the first line in his post. Nice try.
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Mar 30, 2019 00:22
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Sometimes I feel like people think the only merit Souls has from an artistic standpoint is evoking frustration and relief, and that's why they think an easy mode weakens the experience. It's a decent hypothesis when coupled with the fan base complaining about "cheese" or stuff like fast travel.
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Mar 30, 2019 00:22
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:Lmao you literally don't know what words mean and can't parse half the arguments being made and are now trying to Logic and Reason your way out of getting very very mad that someone doesn't enjoy a thing as much as you think they should. some pretty hefty cognitive dissonance happening here w/r/t anger, cryposting and brain demons
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Mar 30, 2019 00:23
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Dias posted:Sometimes I feel like people think the only merit Souls has from an artistic standpoint is evoking frustration and relief, and that's why they think an easy mode weakens the experience. It's a decent hypothesis when coupled with the fan base complaining about "cheese" or stuff like fast travel. And it's so weird cause each Souls-like since 1 has tried to put more and more active story poo poo into their games to the point that the newest one has like...a voice protagonist and specific character arcs and character beats but the hardcore fanbase still sees it as just the gameplay.
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Mar 30, 2019 00:24
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Also discussing "intended experience" wrt artistic endeavors goes kinda against the last 50+ years of art criticism?
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Mar 30, 2019 00:24
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Dias posted:Sometimes I feel like people think the only merit Souls has from an artistic standpoint is evoking frustration and relief, and that's why they think an easy mode weakens the experience. It's a decent hypothesis when coupled with the fan base complaining about "cheese" or stuff like fast travel. miyazaki cherishes the moments of social connection associated with shared experience, which is trivialized when you ask your friend “how did you beat that boss?” and they say “i set it to easy mode”
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Mar 30, 2019 00:25
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Dias posted:Also discussing "intended experience" wrt artistic endeavors goes kinda against the last 50+ years of art criticism? It's also just a naked appeal to authority over trying to actually form an argument of your own (See Ghost dogs big "ACTUALLY YOU'RE WRONG FOR THINKING IT MIGHT BE SOMETHING YOU'D LIKE HERE'S SOME INTERVIEW QUOTES!" post earlier) or this scary ghost dog posted:miyazaki cherishes the moments of social connection associated with shared experience, which is trivialized when you ask your friend “how did you beat that boss?” and they say “i set it to easy mode” Like even in his imagined slight against Miyazaki's VISION it ignores how like...actual people play the games now. "HOw'd you beat that boss?" "Oh I just summoned in help." is something that happens in darks souls as miyazaki has made it now. Like making the boss easier is a thing that already exists in Miyazaki's magical perfect vision that Scary Ghost Dog has created in his head.
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Mar 30, 2019 00:25
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This conversation in awful, can we talk about something else? Let's laugh about how Liam's Hatsune Miku figma broke his phone.
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Mar 30, 2019 00:27
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:
You're right. I got caught up on the "you miserable poo poo" and just sort of saw red at that, and combined with feeling upset about earlier, lashed out completely inappropriately without even reading the whole post. That doesn't excuse it though. Mystic Mongol, I don't know if I can make up for being a real piece of poo poo just a few minutes ago, but I already regret it and I'm truly sorry for posting what I did. It was hosed up of me and I don't really mean it, but that didn't stop me from posting it. I don't expect you to accept this apology but I feel you deserve it all the same. I'm going to unbookmark this thread now, sorry everyone.
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Mar 30, 2019 00:28
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:And it's so weird cause each Souls-like since 1 has tried to put more and more active story poo poo into their games to the point that the newest one has like...a voice protagonist and specific character arcs and character beats but the hardcore fanbase still sees it as just the gameplay. I think I might like Sekiro's story the least of the lot. Losing all the gear meant that there was just less varied stuff to pick up and therefore a lot less cool backstory in the item descriptions.
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Mar 30, 2019 00:28
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scary ghost dog posted:miyazaki cherishes the moments of social connection associated with shared experience, which is trivialized when you ask your friend “how did you beat that boss?” and they say “i set it to easy mode” Not really. I had to retry M19 in DMC5 about twenty times to beat it with no continues. My brother just gorbed it because he wanted to beat the game faster. We still had a lot to talk about with that boss, the way we ended up beating it included.
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Mar 30, 2019 00:29
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Rhonne posted:This conversation in awful, can we talk about something else? He should put a pillow down there then, to catch his phone that he drops once a week
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Mar 30, 2019 00:29
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ZenMasterBullshit posted:It's also just a naked appeal to authority over trying to actually form an argument of your own (See Ghost dogs big "ACTUALLY YOU'RE WRONG FOR THINKING IT MIGHT BE SOMETHING YOU'D LIKE HERE'S SOME INTERVIEW QUOTES!" post earlier) nobodys perfect and miyazaki is no different, but i respect his design intent a lot more than someone like david cage and am willing to entertain the notion that he has a point
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Mar 30, 2019 00:32
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Rhonne posted:This conversation in awful, can we talk about something else? As an old proverb goes: a Figma waifu will ruin your lifu.
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Mar 30, 2019 00:32
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I mean, I guess my issue is that I see that accessibility is important but also there is a design value to creating a consistent and unwavering barrier that is universal to all players. Like, a game should be adaptable to the extent available within its core design but I also do not think it is discriminatory if an element of design is alienating to some but also essential to the coherent design of the experience
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Mar 30, 2019 01:01
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Mel Mudkiper posted:I mean, I guess my issue is that I see that accessibility is important but also there is a design value to creating a consistent and unwavering barrier that is universal to all players. Sure, but light downscaling or small concessions aren't really affecting core design most of the time, or at least they affect it in ways that can be accounted for. Again, DMC5 has four actual difficulties and I find it hard to claim that Human and DMD aren't, in their essence, the same game/experience for their target audience.
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Mar 30, 2019 01:21
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Someone brought DMCV up to pat and his response was basically a condescending way of saying that's ok because they've always done that
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Mar 30, 2019 01:23
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Dias posted:Sure, but light downscaling or small concessions aren't really affecting core design most of the time, or at least they affect it in ways that can be accounted for. Again, DMC5 has four actual difficulties and I find it hard to claim that Human and DMD aren't, in their essence, the same game/experience for their target audience. Well yeah, but they are two different design philosophies. DMC5 seems to be built around the idea of multiple scaling difficulties to train the player to arise to the higher difficulties. The lower difficulty is there to train the player to reach for the higher ones. The Souls games seem to be more about overcoming an unwavering challenge. Like I compare it to a wall. Souls is a game series that goes "here is a wall. You can get over it however you want, but the wall is not changing." I should also point out that I have nothing against a souls game adding an easy mode for accessibility. My issue is more the implication that it is discriminatory and elitist that they dont. I think it's reasonable for a game to be designed around a universal challenge that is literally the same for every participant and the participant is what must change to overcome it. Edit: like, look at the article that spawned this whole thing https://twitter.com/ScrubQuotesX/status/1111418358988038145?s=19 It's the particular phrase of "respect its players" that irks me. Accessibility is good and should be strived for, but a designer is not disrespecting you by designing a high difficulty barrier Mel Mudkiper fucked around with this message at 01:34 on Mar 30, 2019 |
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Mar 30, 2019 01:30
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I wouldn't argue that the games are elitist, but certainly most of the people who get super angry about an easy mode have that mindset
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Mar 30, 2019 01:33
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Dias posted:Sure, but light downscaling or small concessions aren't really affecting core design most of the time, or at least they affect it in ways that can be accounted for. Again, DMC5 has four actual difficulties and I find it hard to claim that Human and DMD aren't, in their essence, the same game/experience for their target audience. While I don't really like the idea of a hard game being made easier when the entire point of it is to be hard, sekiro not having multiplayer(and thus no thing where people can just put it on easy mode to farm items to gently caress with people in multiplayer), there's literally no reason why they couldn't have done a dmc style difficulty, hell they could even do the thing 5 does where if you beat mr crazy uncle in the first encounter(the one you're supposed to lose), just up the difficulty automatically. Like I don't think I'm too wrong when I say the reason most people play soulsborne games is for the great challenge and the rush when you finally beat that challenge, and also setting limitations on yourself(For example both my 2 and 3 first runs were fist only because I love that hopeless rear end feeling), but when there's literally no way that a game being easier will affect someone else, why even bother giving a poo poo about how they play the game? Nalesh fucked around with this message at 01:39 on Mar 30, 2019 |
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Mar 30, 2019 01:34
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somepartsareme posted:I wouldn't argue that the games are elitist, but certainly most of the people who get super angry about an easy mode have that mindset Oh there are. As I said, I am not opposed to the idea of an easy mode, I am opposed to the idea that it's a failure of the designer not to include it. Like, mega man is hard. Mega Man 10 added an easy mode. It didnt ruin mega man, but I also dont think it's a moral mandate now for all future mega man games to do the same
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Mar 30, 2019 01:36
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I think you can scale the size of the wall without really changing the design philosophy. I don't think a Souls game works with on-the-fly difficulty switching, honestly, but "easy mode" is doable both as a scalable or remixed experience while keeping the series' rhythm intact. Edit: I wouldn't call it a design failure per se, but its omission can be criticized, especially nowadays with accessibility options and all. Dias fucked around with this message at 01:40 on Mar 30, 2019 |
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Mar 30, 2019 01:37
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Dias posted:remixed experience while keeping the series' rhythm intact. Hell you could make a case that scholar of the first sin is a hardmode version of 2 just because of the changes to enemy placements. And honestly if they lock invasion and coop to only allow others from the same difficulty(With an optional choice of getting invaded by people from easier difficulties maybe?), or just make it offline/coop only for that save, that would pretty much remove every single problem I'd have with adding difficulty settings to soulsborne games. Nalesh fucked around with this message at 01:49 on Mar 30, 2019 |
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Mar 30, 2019 01:42
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Nalesh posted:Hell you could make a case that scholar of the first sin is a hardmode version of 2 just because of the changes to enemy placements. And honestly if they lock invasion and coop to only allow others from the same difficulty(With an optional choice of getting invaded by people from easier difficulties maybe?), or just make it offline/coop only for that save, that would pretty much remove every single problem I'd have with adding difficulty settings to soulsborne games. This is why I'm so particular about the difficulty in Sekiro. Because it has no multiplayer component whatsoever.
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Mar 30, 2019 01:50
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Dias posted:Edit: I wouldn't call it a design failure per se, but its omission can be criticized, especially nowadays with accessibility options and all. Sure, but there is also a difference between a critique and a condemnation. Like, I understand it was during a heated moment, but a person in here literally said "Miyazaki can go gently caress himself" because he didnt consider a terminal cancer patient in his design. The original article says the game doesnt respect its players by not having an easy mode. It's the literal moral judgement that bothers me, not the desire for accessibility
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Mar 30, 2019 01:58
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