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I won't lie I really miss the automation from HoI3 for air and sea cause I could just throw things into a bucket and let the ai figure out how it worked. It did better than I did!
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Mar 31, 2019 17:48
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Party In My Diapee posted:Jokes on you. I already am
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Mar 31, 2019 17:52
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I think there is a (hilarious) disconnect here between "war is tedious, lets find a way to automate it a bit" and people thinking that that means people dont want to fight at all? I love that in HoI 4 I manage my focuses, decisions, research, construction, production, and troop deployment....and that the troop deployment can even deploy them into an army and give them orders without my input, then fight and conquer with me pointing in a direction and saying "go". I would pay $50 for that in EU4 or Stellaris.
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Mar 31, 2019 18:15
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:I think there is a (hilarious) disconnect here between "war is tedious, lets find a way to automate it a bit" and people thinking that that means people dont want to fight at all? Okay, except all the people on the previous page who literally wanted to get rid of army management or controllable armies entirely. Like, I get the desire, but I disagree with making paradox's games that way.
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Mar 31, 2019 18:33
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Or those that argued that war isn’t the focus of paradox games
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Mar 31, 2019 18:34
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Arrhythmia posted:You're the only one melting down here. So what you’re saying is that paradox sucks poo poo at making wargames and should stop if that’s what they are after Army management is most of most paradox games. It’s also the most boring, lovely, easily exploited part of most paradox games. The solution is, unironically, more HoI4 army groups doing battle plans and waaaaay less “i move the 15th ‘player built perfect comp’ division to West Stockholm and hilariously annihilate the enemy.” Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Mar 31, 2019 |
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Mar 31, 2019 18:59
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Nah, they're pretty fun and are selling pretty well. Dunno why they'd stop.
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Mar 31, 2019 19:00
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:Nah, they're pretty fun and are selling pretty well. Dunno why they'd stop. because they'd be better and still sell well op
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Mar 31, 2019 19:03
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outright getting rid of movable army mans would piss off so many people for the sake of pleasing like, 3 goons in this thread
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Mar 31, 2019 19:05
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:Nah, they're pretty fun and are selling pretty well. Dunno why they'd stop. They shouldn’t but literally everything besides clicking to move your dudes round the map is more fun than that Even in HoI, the actual paradox wargame, fiddling with industry and setting plans is infinitely more fun than actually using your army E: don’t literally remove moving units ever, but make it way less of game time Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 19:08 on Mar 31, 2019 |
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Mar 31, 2019 19:06
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if the people not in this thread want me to care they can pay the taxman his 10 bucks and 
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Mar 31, 2019 19:06
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I mean I think the main problem is goons just want paradox games to be something it just isn’t and will never be.
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Mar 31, 2019 19:07
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Vicky 3 hasn't come out yet, the dream of abstract armies is not yet lost
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Mar 31, 2019 19:19
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Vicky 3 will have armies just like EU, but it’s factory game is unmatched
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Mar 31, 2019 19:20
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actually my uncle works in swedeland and he says Vicky 3 will have abstracted armies and randomly selected economic models just like this thread talked about
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Mar 31, 2019 19:22
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Dr. Video Games 0031 posted:Okay, except all the people on the previous page who literally wanted to get rid of army management or controllable armies entirely. I mean, Paradox sort of agrees with this in the HoI games, which are the most explicitly war gamey. HoI4 actively punishes you for controlling your armies. Anyone who thinks late game warfare in EU4 is fun is.. I dunno. 40k stack surrounded by 40k stacks and timing army arrival is really tedious and unfun. We wouldn't have these stupid micro rules for disempowering disloyal generals if your army composition weren't directly controlled. But oh well, goons gonna goon.
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Mar 31, 2019 19:30
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AAAAA! Real Muenster posted:I think there is a (hilarious) disconnect here between "war is tedious, lets find a way to automate it a bit" and people thinking that that means people dont want to fight at all? I love that in HoI 4 I manage my focuses, decisions, research, construction, production, and troop deployment....and that the troop deployment can even deploy them into an army and give them orders without my input, then fight and conquer with me pointing in a direction and saying "go". I would pay $50 for that in EU4 or Stellaris. Yeah I actually like the Battle planner in HoI4 and use it more often than micromanagement. I think the thing is that people don't like that the battle planner tends to use troops sub-optimally because it's not enough to just WIN a war, you have to do it RIGHT. They obsess over using every division to maximum utility and then complain that the game "requires" so much micromanagement. My dude you don't NEED to squeeze the most out of every division to win the war. Just slap down a front line and one big wide attack order and you're good to go 90% of the time.
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Mar 31, 2019 19:30
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Vicky 3 will have more army micromanagement than ever before, but the counters will be details from Joan Miro paintings.
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Mar 31, 2019 19:30
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Abstract the armies and let me micromanage the riveters at the shipyard instead I have the perfect comp for their lunchbox contents all figured out
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Mar 31, 2019 19:37
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It's more...I like the political grand strategy that Paradox does, and I don't think I've really seen any other game company provide something really like that, so I'd like some game with like the grander political map but with more in-depth mechanics to dive into aside from war. Technically, most Paradox games that I've played already greatly downplay tactical combat compared to other big strategy games like Total War, Mount and Blade, or Xcom. You can tinker with unit composition, try to min/max commanders, fiddle around with deployment and what terrain you want, but largely it comes down to one big stack hitting another big stack, and then the game does 500 million little dice rolls. You can do extra busywork min/maxing things if you want, but I think it has diminishing returns. It's not much of a jump to try imagining a further step of abstracting warfare. And of course you could imagine going the other way of adding a grander political worldmap with minor conquest interactions to Tropico, Frostpunk, Dwarf Fortress, Stronghold, or what have you, but you're more likely going to see wishes expressed from a Paradox-centric perspective in the Paradox thread. I think the game that comes closest to what I've been thinking of is King of Dragon Pass.
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Mar 31, 2019 19:54
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is there a SA discord for hoi4
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Mar 31, 2019 20:16
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The Cheshire Cat posted:I think the thing is that people don't like that the battle planner tends to use troops sub-optimally because it's not enough to just WIN a war, you have to do it RIGHT. They obsess over using every division to maximum utility and then complain that the game "requires" so much micromanagement. My dude you don't NEED to squeeze the most out of every division to win the war. Just slap down a front line and one big wide attack order and you're good to go 90% of the time.
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Mar 31, 2019 20:27
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Give me Democracy 3 with a world map and different time periods and your foreign policy and military fills into an unintelligible void that affects other national inputs based on diplomatic relations. It doesn't need to replace EU or Rome, there's a certain something about the army dances but I'm tired of them and don't want to deal with anything besides smashing two hosts together over and over in CK2. Although eventually I'm gonna end up trying HOI4 because battle plans and some of the national stuff sounds neat.
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Mar 31, 2019 20:48
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I'd like to know why people think that armies as discrete units is such a fundamental necessity for these games. I'm pretty sure that abstracting armies into front lines or whatever can still be really fun if it's done well. People are correct that warfare is one of the most important aspects of paradox games, but they're missing the problem that warfare is extremely boring and tedious. It plays too much like an RTS where you need to control everything manually and whoever has the highest APM wins. That's fine for an actual RTS where games last like 30 minutes at most, but not so much for a grand campaign that could last a hundred hours or more. Just give me the option to automate some things. The people who are crazy enough to micro everything can still do that, I don't care.
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Mar 31, 2019 22:10
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:So what you’re saying is that paradox sucks poo poo at making wargames and should stop if that’s what they are after I'm saying you need to take a deep breath and find a healthier way to express your emotions.
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Mar 31, 2019 22:18
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The next Paradox game will be one where you play a guy in a windowless dark room who is occasionally asked to provided input on moving armies without any context for what you're doing.
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Mar 31, 2019 22:28
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Funky Valentine posted:The next Paradox game will be one where you play a guy in a windowless dark room who is occasionally asked to provided input on moving armies without any context for what you're doing. general staff officer sim would rule, i agree
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Mar 31, 2019 22:30
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i hope this debate on armies gets turned into an ingame event like the collectivism arguements from pre launch stellaris
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Mar 31, 2019 22:31
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Alternatively, a game where you have to manually control every single action of every single soldier in your army. If you don't specifically order them to, they will all stop breathing and die. e: you also have to move them QWOP-style.
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Mar 31, 2019 22:42
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Agean90 posted:i hope this debate on armies gets turned into an ingame event like the collectivism arguements from pre launch stellaris It comes up every now and then because of the very real and obvious observation that combat in Paradox games is fairly boring to interact with; reworking aspects of the game to reduce / remove shuffling around of armies seems like a good fix. It doesn't have anything to do with any particular game release.
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Mar 31, 2019 22:44
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Combat isn’t terribly boring I just think some people would prefer not having to do anything. Let the game play itself really
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Mar 31, 2019 22:49
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Well yeah, if your idea of not boring means always having something to do, then yeah, combat is extremely not boring. Many people disagree with you though.
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Mar 31, 2019 22:55
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i would unironically prefer to meticulously chart out mobilization orders down to the precise time at which the reservists are expected to arrive at a supply depot than ever move a single pixleman into an empty province.
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Mar 31, 2019 22:59
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Agean90 posted:i would unironically prefer to meticulously chart out mobilization orders down to the precise time at which the reservists are expected to arrive at a supply depot than ever move a single pixleman into an empty province.
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Mar 31, 2019 23:03
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Agean90 posted:i would unironically prefer to meticulously chart out mobilization orders down to the precise time at which the reservists are expected to arrive at a supply depot than ever move a single pixleman into an empty province. That would loving suck and also beat the hell out of the existing systems (except hoi4)
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Mar 31, 2019 23:11
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CharlestheHammer posted:Combat isn’t terribly boring I just think some people would prefer not having to do anything. Let the game play itself really  This is the exciting part of EU4 for you?
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Mar 31, 2019 23:13
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Clearly what Paradox needs to do is implement a kind of FF12-esque gambit system where you can use an in-game interface to script AI orders and then assign those scripts to units so they do exactly what you want all the time.
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Mar 31, 2019 23:15
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i would much rather devs try to fix colonisation being wildly ahistorical and wildly tedious than anything else in eu
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Mar 31, 2019 23:17
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Warfare is in the right place for each game. In CK it's about your ability to get your vassals to raise troops for you and then lead them into winner-takes-all battles. In EU it's about the ability of the state to raise and pay for armies. In Victoria it's about the ability of societies to mobilise their people into shattering total wars with each other. Only Hearts of Iron is about the operational conduct of a total war and mobilisation of a nation's industry to wage it. Warfare is the core of each Paradox game because like Civ the games are based around the assumption that turning the map your colour is how societies 'win'. But how warfare is portrayed in gameplay terms is tied to the holistic nature of what each game is about.
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Mar 31, 2019 23:41
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I would like it it Paradox decide to fix battles taking months in EU4. It wouldn’t be everything, but it would be a start. Also it’d stop people from going “ Actually, the battles represent all the minor conflicts happening in the province” as though that excuses Battle of Verdun level casualties happening in 1495.
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