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Severian holding forth to a depressed Dorcas about how his line of work is totally legit and necessary will never not be funny.
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Mar 30, 2019 20:29
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Severian is great because he's simultaneously correct abstractly, but wrong specifically. In a way, we are all torturers, lmao
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Mar 31, 2019 01:29
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Isn't that line 'all men are torturers'?
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Mar 31, 2019 02:04
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Probably, I don't have the book in front of me
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Mar 31, 2019 02:34
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I did find it funny how Severian is on his own in the city for literally a day and is instantly spotted as a sucker who could easily be scammed or killed for his sword. Did his guild master ever expect him to reach his destination when he gets kicked out of the guild? I’m unsure but it seemed like his boss hoped he probably would have just been killed on the way and he wouldn’t have to worry about Severian bringing anymore trouble to the guild. Severians travels between cities makes it sound pretty dangerous, especially on foot.
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Mar 31, 2019 04:06
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I don't know if I read it here or somewhere else, but someone mentioned that for a guy who is absorbed enough in his own life that he recalls (or believes he recalls) every moment of it, he is mostly propelled by external forces. He often only progresses because others want him to, and he is oblivious to it. I think this was explained as a Borges reference. Once I understood that, the story suddenly made much more sense.
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Mar 31, 2019 04:27
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ElGroucho posted:I don't know if I read it here or somewhere else, but someone mentioned that for a guy who is absorbed enough in his own life that he recalls (or believes he recalls) every moment of it, he is mostly propelled by external forces. He often only progresses because others want him to, and he is oblivious to it. I think this was explained as a Borges reference. The Borges thing I remember which Severian seems to evince and accounts for a lot of his behaviour is that someone who could remember everything specifically would probably have an underdeveloped ability to reason from incomplete information and thereby see connections and implications. ElGroucho posted:Basically I think it absolutely matters whether Severian is evil or good, thematically. One of the central themes is how flawed human beings are, which can be redeemed by suffering and atonement.
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Mar 31, 2019 07:11
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Neurosis posted:I think it absolutely matters whether Severian is evil or good, thematically. One of the central themes is how flawed human beings are, which can be redeemed by suffering and atonement. They're 4 episodes in and they are arguing about whether healing the dog is good or evil, because he doesn't use any numbing drugs, which makes him a.... torturer?
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Mar 31, 2019 10:28
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ElGroucho posted:They're 4 episodes in and they are arguing about whether healing the dog is good or evil, because he doesn't use any numbing drugs, which makes him a.... torturer? how about when he performs the excruciation of the two apricots
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Mar 31, 2019 10:50
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sebmojo posted:People make a bit much of that imo, but he does spend a lot of time telling you how trustworthy he is so take that as you will Severian posted:It was in this instant of confusion that I realized for the first time that I am in some degree insane. It could be argued that it was the most harrowing of my life. I had lied often to Master Gurloes and Master Palaemon, to Master Malrubius while he still lived, to Drotte because he was captain, to Roche because he was older and stronger than I, and to Eata and the other smaller apprentices because I hoped to make them respect me. Now I could no longer be sure my own mind was not lying to me; all my falsehoods were recoiling on me, and I who remembered everything could not be certain those memories were more than my own dreams.
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Mar 31, 2019 14:03
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Neurosis posted:I think it absolutely matters whether Severian is evil or good, thematically. One of the central themes is how flawed human beings are, which can be redeemed by suffering and atonement. yeah given that his ultimate destiny is to betray and murder the entire human race it's pretty important that he is comfortable with doing bad things and hurting people who don't deserve it
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Mar 31, 2019 15:37
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my bony fealty posted:yeah given that his ultimate destiny is to betray and murder the entire human race it's pretty important that he is comfortable with doing bad things and hurting people who don't deserve it That’s a novel interpretation.
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Mar 31, 2019 15:59
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is it? that's pretty much what happens at the end of Urth - the new sun triggers a (second?) global deluge that wipes out everyone but Severian and the few House Absolute folks who become the new gods of an Ushas repopulated by sailors from Tzadkiel's ship. likely leading to a renewal of humanity and the green man future and the evolution of the hieros. how much culpability Severian personally bears for this and how aware if at all he was of what the coming of the new sun would entail are questionable for sure.
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Mar 31, 2019 16:39
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my bony fealty posted:. That’s my principle objection, but it’s also by no means clear that either autarchs or gods can commit “murder” by killing any number of humans, and there’s also the mitigating factor of what would have happened if he’d hadn’t summoned the new sun. Lifeboat ethics were in effect over a long enough time horizon.
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Mar 31, 2019 16:47
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You guys are missing the point! Is this torturer a good guy or a bad guy? lmao
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Mar 31, 2019 19:19
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ElGroucho posted:You guys are missing the point! Did the people he tortured deserve it? Gotta hear from both sides.
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Mar 31, 2019 19:57
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I stopped listening to the podcast, it isn't really adding anything for me. Their "no spoiler" policy isn't helping either. I already read the book twice. I was hoping for "hey, here's this thing that happens in the book, THIS is what that might actually refer to." Instead it's like, "whoa that's weird huh? Haha, guess we'll see what that means later, haha (but is he a man now?)"
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Mar 31, 2019 20:34
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For a Book of the New Sun podcast to be insightful you would need somebody like Robert Price to do it.
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Apr 1, 2019 00:43
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ElGroucho posted:Basically What's complex about him? As far as I can tell he just bumbles around doing whatever. His main drive seems to be "going forward"
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Apr 1, 2019 01:03
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Amethyst posted:What's complex about him? As far as I can tell he just bumbles around doing whatever. His main drive seems to be "going forward" I don't disagree with you, which is why I think a deep dive in to his character is pointless.
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Apr 1, 2019 01:42
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I read these books years ago in my early 20s and strongly disliked them. I did not understand them and felt the impulse to dissect the plot but ultimately came away frustrated by both the confused mass of potential meaning and by the online discussion that constantly alluded to intracate webs of interconnectedness without ever adequately articulating what it actually was, or what it ultimately meant. Looking back, it's a lot more clear. BOTNS is an expression of spiritual and moral crisis from from an adult convert to Catholicism. Severian is raised into sin and his attempts to escape are confounded by lust, and his distance from divinity. Amethyst fucked around with this message at 02:01 on Apr 1, 2019 |
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Apr 1, 2019 01:56
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nm wrong thread
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Apr 1, 2019 02:08
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ElGroucho posted:I stopped listening to the podcast, it isn't really adding anything for me. Their "no spoiler" policy isn't helping either. I already read the book twice. They won't be close for years but if you've read some of Wolfe's other work try out the gene Wolfe literary podcast. They've done a much much better job of analysis in my opinion.
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Apr 1, 2019 02:12
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How on earth can they run a book discussion podcast with a "no spoiler" policy? That's absurd.
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Apr 1, 2019 02:14
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Amethyst posted:How on earth can they run a book discussion podcast with a "no spoiler" policy? That's absurd. spoiler culture is a loving plague
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Apr 1, 2019 02:32
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Amethyst posted:What's complex about him? As far as I can tell he just bumbles around doing whatever. His main drive seems to be "going forward" He has an interesting inner life.
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Apr 1, 2019 02:32
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I think another reason I found these books so frustrating when I read them is that I instinctively shied away from any kind of religious reading. Trying to wrestle a coherent theme from these books without Jesus Christ getting involved is doomed to endless confusion. I believe this is something that afflicts sci fi fandom in general, hence the bewilderment around these books, though I could be projecting.
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Apr 1, 2019 03:36
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Gene Wolfe has talked about this directly. Amazingly I never once saw this quote back when I was desperately rummaging around for an explanation about these books:Gene Wolfe posted:It has been remarked thousands of times that Christ died under torture. Many of us have read so often that he was a "humble carpenter" that we feel a little surge of nausea on seeing the words again. But no one ever seems to notice that the instruments of torture were wood, nails, and a hammer; that the man who built the cross was undoubtedly a carpenter too; that the man who hammered in the nails was as much a carpenter as a soldier, as much a carpenter as a torturer. Very few seem even to have noticed that although Christ was a "humble carpenter," the only object we are specifically told he made was not a table or a chair, but a whip. Wow that's really helpful! Why don't I see this quote in every discussion threa- Gene wolfe, continued from previous posted:And if Christ knew not only the pain of torture but the pain of being a torturer (as it seems certain to me that he did) then the dark figure is also capable of being a heroic and even a holy figure, like the black Christs carved in Africa. Oh.
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Apr 1, 2019 03:41
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CountFosco posted:I like the alzabo soup guys well enough, but I seriously wish they'd stop mapping every single thing onto "the virgin/whore" idea. This is extremely funny. That podcast sounds dumb.
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Apr 1, 2019 03:42
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Alzabo Soup is entertaining but the quality varies wildly. I thought their Sorcerer's House and Fifth Head of Cerberus series were quite good and insightful while the New Sun one is really hit or miss. They have some weird ideas that I don't think have any textual support at all like "Severian swapped Thecla's torture orders." I would really not recommend it as a guide for reading through the book the first time which it unfortunately seems to get pitched for a lot. It's good as two guys shooting the poo poo about a fantasy book they like. Gene Wolfe Literary Podcast is definitely more, well, literary and does a good job dissecting themes and references and whatnot. But they go off the deep end sometimes and read too far in to stuff I think. And it gets annoying how they say "looking forward to discussing this in our wrap up episode" like 5 times every episode @.@ I listen to em both because I'm a big Wolfe fan and theres generally a lack of sff podcasts that discuss more obscure stuff at all, which isn't to say Wolfe is especially obscure but that every other podcast just talks about Dr Who and Brandon Sanderson @.@
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Apr 1, 2019 04:24
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Amethyst posted:This is extremely funny. That podcast sounds dumb. It is. Also, I took for granted that people would understand the religious references, but I am a lapsed catholic. These two dudes can read entries out of the catholic encyclopedia as much as they want, but I'm not sure they understand the dogma.
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Apr 1, 2019 04:30
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my bony fealty posted:how much culpability Severian personally bears for this and how aware if at all he was of what the coming of the new sun would entail are questionable for sure. What are you talking about? It's all right there and spelled out quite explicitly in Dr. Talos' play! I will say that the Alzabo Soup guys did a decent job on that bit. Probably helps that one of 'em participates substantially in theatrical productions in his spare time.
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Apr 1, 2019 20:03
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I am really struggling to get through Calde of the Long Sun. Auk and Chenille in the tunnels just keeps going and going and going. Let's spend 2 pages of Maytera Mint storming the Space Bastille and cutting down flyers with a loving light saber and spend another 40 pages talking about tunnels. Anytime we aren't in the tunnels, the other characters should be saying " What's going on in the tunnels"?
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Apr 1, 2019 20:35
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I get the impression that all of the books after Citadel of the Autarch are similar to the Foundation books Asimov published after the first thee: unnecessary additions written at the request of the publisher because they sold more than all his others. Possibly unfair since I haven't read them. Do they feel like this to read?
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Apr 2, 2019 00:17
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Amethyst posted:I get the impression that all of the books after Citadel of the Autarch are similar to the Foundation books Asimov published after the first thee: unnecessary additions written at the request of the publisher because they sold more than all his others. Urth of the New Sun is the only direct sequel to BotNS and it was basically written at the publisher's behest, if I recall correctly. Being Wolfe, the book answers some of the questions in BotNS while raising a bunch of new ones. The Long and Short Sun books were all written of Wolfe's own volition, and stand out as their own works with thought and care given to them on an individual levle. They don't feel like cash in's or mandated sequels.
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Apr 2, 2019 00:33
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Amethyst posted:I get the impression that all of the books after Citadel of the Autarch are similar to the Foundation books Asimov published after the first thee: unnecessary additions written at the request of the publisher because they sold more than all his others. not at all. Long and Short Sun are mostly standalone stories that are very very different than New Sun. all 3 series together probably do form a big overarching story but that doesnt really matter for actually reading them. Wolfe wrote them because he wanted to. Long Sun is definitely tedious in places. I've only read the whole thing once but recall way too much time in the tunnels and the fuckin robot factory. it is a great story and Silk is a phenomenal protagonist tho.
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Apr 2, 2019 00:40
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I should give them another go, but I found the first two long sun books dull enough that I gave up and haven't read the short sun ones.
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Apr 2, 2019 00:54
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Dimebags Brain posted:Urth of the New Sun is the only direct sequel to BotNS and it was basically written at the publisher's behest, if I recall correctly. Being Wolfe, the book answers some of the questions in BotNS while raising a bunch of new ones. I don't think I'm going to read Urth of the New Sun. I read somewhere that Wolfe wanted Book of the New Sun to be one massive tome, but the publisher made him break it up to four novels. He was apparently so pissed at this that he excised sections, which explains the sudden change of setting from the Wall to Saltus between Shadow of the Torturer and Claw of the Conciliator. Not sure if that's true but if so it would make me wary of reading Urth.
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Apr 2, 2019 02:42
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Basically it's worth it to tough it out through Long Sun because Short Sun is (IMO) the best of the bunch and makes absolutely no sense without having read Long Sun first.
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Apr 2, 2019 08:36
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I agree with the above. Short Sun is my favorite of them.
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Apr 2, 2019 12:47
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