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anarchists are important to the development of a communist society in the same way that communists are important to raising class consciousness in the current material conditions you need people who reject literally all abstracted power and structural, hierarchical ordering to be like "drat man, I dunno about this one dawg" when you're building your society to keep your bitch rear end in check, and if they start throwing bombs at you and you gotta kill them you probably hosed up somewhere
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Apr 1, 2019 14:58
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anarchism? no tanks
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Apr 1, 2019 15:03
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GalacticAcid posted:anarchism? no tanks
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Apr 1, 2019 15:07
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just wanted to chime in and say anarchists are liberals. i wont be reading replies. thank you.
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Apr 1, 2019 15:07
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i have friends who describe themselves as anarcho-communists and i just want to help them understand the trillbillies had a good take on this in a recent episode where tarence was like "it would be nice if we could be anarchists and live in the stateless collective, but surviving climate change is going to require strong centralized power"
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Apr 1, 2019 15:13
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anarchists are just libertarians
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Apr 1, 2019 15:15
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smarxist posted:anarchists are important to the development of a communist society in the same way that communists are important to raising class consciousness in the current material conditions the problem with expecting anarchists to keep the state honest is in assuming that these anarchists are accountable to themselves in a way that they can prevent themselves from being co-opted by the counter-revolution
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Apr 1, 2019 15:19
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R. Guyovich posted:anarchists are just libertarians small l, accurate
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Apr 1, 2019 15:21
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Karl Barks posted:small l, accurate go cry to the Von Mises Institute about it 
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Apr 1, 2019 15:24
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I’ve never really heard anarchists articulate any ideas that aren’t just basically already inherent to Communism. anti-state, anti-market, anti-hierarchy, etc are all just like, what’s supposed to happen after a socialist state builds itself to a sufficiently advanced level
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Apr 1, 2019 15:26
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Frog Act posted:I’ve never really heard anarchists articulate any ideas that aren’t just basically already inherent to Communism. anti-state, anti-market, anti-hierarchy, etc are all just like, what’s supposed to happen after a socialist state builds itself to a sufficiently advanced level it seems to me that they want to skip the hard part where we go and build all that
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Apr 1, 2019 15:28
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that's right
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Apr 1, 2019 15:33
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smarxist posted:anarchists are important to the development of a communist society in the same way that communists are important to raising class consciousness in the current material conditions
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Apr 1, 2019 15:34
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even the part in the bread book where anarchists are supposed to be able to resist the reimposition of capitalism by people banding together and shooting every capitalist that tried to come back into their anarchist commune / anarchist region / anarchist nation-state or whatever would necessarily result in the congealing of some kind of centralized structure to control the armed resistance, even if everyone a priori believed in and was invested in resisting
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Apr 1, 2019 15:35
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Frog Act posted:I’ve never really heard anarchists articulate any ideas that aren’t just basically already inherent to Communism. anti-state, anti-market, anti-hierarchy, etc are all just like, what’s supposed to happen after a socialist state builds itself to a sufficiently advanced level i think i've said it somewhere in c-spam before but the last time I questioned an anarchist about how they would structure their development they described a state while refusing to call it a state
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Apr 1, 2019 15:36
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Serf posted:i have friends who describe themselves as anarcho-communists and i just want to help them understand I listened to the revleft radio episode on common arguments against communism, every host described themselves as anarcho-communists but their viewpoints seemed to be just good old-fashioned communism.
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Apr 1, 2019 15:36
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Anarchists get a lot of their followers based on their color scheme. Red and black is cool. It let's you dress like a fascist but advocate for leftwing positions. It's the a political equivalent of the n-word pass
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Apr 1, 2019 15:38
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gradenko_2000 posted:even the part in the bread book where anarchists are supposed to be able to resist the reimposition of capitalism by people banding together and shooting every capitalist that tried to come back into their anarchist commune / anarchist region / anarchist nation-state or whatever would necessarily result in the congealing of some kind of centralized structure to control the armed resistance, even if everyone a priori believed in and was invested in resisting There's also not a meaningful difference between customary rules and statutory law, except that customary rules tend to be way less reactionary because they're filtered through a political process. If the social standard is that you just shoot anybody who tries to do a capitalism no questions asked, then what's going to stop the community from shooting anybody else they don't like for other taboos?
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Apr 1, 2019 15:38
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von me me me institute, it's all about 'me' for these people,
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Apr 1, 2019 15:39
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CYBEReris posted:the problem with expecting anarchists to keep the state honest is in assuming that these anarchists are accountable to themselves in a way that they can prevent themselves from being co-opted by the counter-revolution i could say the same for a type of vanguard that is given large amounts of abstracted power in a revolution drat this HUMAN NATURE
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Apr 1, 2019 15:39
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Frog Act posted:I’ve never really heard anarchists articulate any ideas that aren’t just basically already inherent to Communism. anti-state, anti-market, anti-hierarchy, etc are all just like, what’s supposed to happen after a socialist state builds itself to a sufficiently advanced level it's almost like communism is anarchism 
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Apr 1, 2019 15:40
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smarxist posted:i could say the same for a type of vanguard that is given large amounts of abstracted power in a revolution yeah the vanguard of the revolution is going to side with the counter-revolution 
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Apr 1, 2019 15:42
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:what's going to stop the community from shooting anybody else they don't like for other taboos? NAP
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Apr 1, 2019 15:42
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smarxist posted:i could say the same for a type of vanguard that is given large amounts of abstracted power in a revolution except the vanguard has means of accountability by design of a centralized system, that's what the purges and poo poo were for. it's not a perfect process but there are tools there for dealing with infiltration and corruption.
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Apr 1, 2019 15:45
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Dreddout posted:NAP the National Association of Partisans 
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Apr 1, 2019 15:45
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:yeah the vanguard of the revolution is going to side with the counter-revolution on an individual level and in ways that cannot be anticipated or protected against by rigorous organizing and policing, sure. the more power you vest into individuals, the more power they have to leverage/bargain their own personal desires into being
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Apr 1, 2019 15:45
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smarxist posted:on an individual level and in ways that cannot be anticipated or protected against by rigorous organizing and policing, sure. the more power you vest into individuals, the more power they have to leverage/bargain their own personal desires into being What you're describing is a revolution that ends up falling short of its ideals due to demagoguery. Being "co-opted" by the counter-revolution means you're actively working in the interest of couter-revolutionary forces. None of the capitalist powers ever once thought to themselves, "oh the Soviets are actually working for us, if you think about it."
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Apr 1, 2019 15:47
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alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll i'm saying is that while a strong state/party may be necessary to the installation and progression of a revolution, as soon as power is pretty solidly seized, there should be attempts to balkanize as many systems of power as you can onto local actors that have material investment in the conditions. having too much centralized power inherently leads to too much calculation with people's lives and livelihood obviously you have to keep some vestige of revolution around if only to make sure as many pockets of culture are steered correctly as you can (yeah we don't want the hillbilly death squads), but i feel like accumulation of state power is basically Bad in general
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Apr 1, 2019 15:51
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anarchists: antifa, propaganda of the deed, probably having sex with lots of people MLs: constantly talking about how things need to be "centralized", want tons of cops, but like, the good kind i know what side i'm on
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Apr 1, 2019 15:52
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The last time an anarchist killed a CEO/President/King was in the 20s
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Apr 1, 2019 15:56
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smarxist posted:alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll i'm saying is that while a strong state/party may be necessary to the installation and progression of a revolution, as soon as power is pretty solidly seized, there should be attempts to balkanize as many systems of power as you can onto local actors that have material investment in the conditions. having too much centralized power inherently leads to too much calculation with people's lives and livelihood sure, but why should this be specifically anarchists, and not the proletariat in general?
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Apr 1, 2019 15:56
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if sexhaving is our standard, sorry, I'm going with the guy who knocked boots with Frida Kahlo
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Apr 1, 2019 15:58
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man, it's labor for whoever wants to do it naturally, but who actually says and agitates for stuff like that tend to be on the black side of the flag
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Apr 1, 2019 15:58
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If Narchos still did epic acts of terrorism and assassination against the ruling class they would be cool but all those dipshits do today is getting in brawls with the lowest rung of the barrel fascist nobodies and even so they get one or two casualties without enacting the same on them.
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Apr 1, 2019 16:00
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I thought the Narodniks had it pretty well established that propaganda of the deed does not work
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Apr 1, 2019 16:01
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i mean think of it this way; if your goal is to reform basically all aspects of human relations to each other, their labor, and the things they produce, it's PROBABLY a good idea to generally disavow the blueprint you used to seize and build a large apparatus of power that allowed you to steer that process in the first place. not that a state will ever be FORBIDDEN KNOWLEDGE or anything, but when you have a presence in your daily life of some kind of unassailable amount of power/authority, you create and perpetuate systems that allow bad behaviors to prosper via exploitation/corruption in the short term (because taking shortcuts with people's lives is always more efficient than dealing honestly with them) and springboard into more nasty problems via capture of systems of power or creation of parallel structures that mimic what you've already got going on, so they can exert the same type of pressure or reinforcing hierarchy on free proles that you can as the Good State, but say "and do it or else will kill you" because they're fash poo poo heads.
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Apr 1, 2019 16:03
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i can't believe STM isn't a school subject anymore tbf
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Apr 1, 2019 16:04
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edit: this is probably a bad thing to say even as clear as i made it lol
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Apr 1, 2019 16:05
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i can't believe i don't know what STM would be in english. "self-management with basic marxism"? that's the thing schools used to have here. i was born too late to have that in person in school tho 
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Apr 1, 2019 16:08
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Plutonis posted:The last time an anarchist killed a CEO/President/King was in the 20s guess what: next year the 20’s start all over again
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Apr 1, 2019 17:01
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