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What is even the point of using this term "published fanon?" I get, sort of, that there's a kind of material you don't like that combines subverted expectations with a big-picture view of the setting that you think loses track of ground's-eye playability. The poo poo does this have to do with fans besides "fans write stuff that's not as good and they go after low-hanging fruit more often?" Why not call it, like, something that actually describes what it is you're complaining about, instead of this term that makes people mad by implying that the writing of this material is in someway inauthentic or invalid, and doesn't really communicate anything more specific than that?
I Am Just a Box fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Apr 2, 2019 |
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Apr 2, 2019 02:40
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I Am Just a Box posted:What is even the point of using this term "published fanon?" To troll people and get a reaction. Like I feel like everyone knows that, but the internet gets all up in them and they forget someone isn't actually arguing in good faith or some poo poo.
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Apr 2, 2019 02:44
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Nessus posted:So which of the books can't be Published Fanon? Like, if you want to drill down, isn't everything outside of the World of Darkness core published fanon? Stuff that builds on things that are part of the initial premise that is the reason people get into the game, rather than things that get hacked in with little regard for the mixing of different themes and expectaions like a fast-food worker with access to a combination Subway / Taco Bell kitchen. I am glad that after the initial blubbering about someone having a critical take about a piece of game writing we're getting to the part of actually engaging critique.
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Apr 2, 2019 02:52
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Father Wolf is in the core, and that has as much to do with Pangaeans as the Equinox Road depiction of the True Fae has to do with the core's True Fae: As the jumping-off point for content. Like, if your entire point is 'these side books add something to the setting that wasn't there before, and adds more questions and game possibilities, and I don't like it because they're not specifically the kind I would write' then... there's no actual category difference there between Pangaeans and like... Strix. Except that one is aesthetically not your jam. But if you're willing to declare Strix 'published fanon' - along with everything not explicitly delineated in the corebooks, including the Equinox Road True Fae lifecycle (which certainly raises questions!) then at least that might cohere. And yes I realize Gerund isn't arguing in good faith I'm just frustrated, so, congrats Gerund. E: Ninja'd, but, I stand by my position: Strix fit the bill as much as any other new monster introduced in supplements. They certainly aren't part of the core premise of 'vampire politics' - any more than Idigam in Woof 2e are part of the core premise of 'spirit cops.' What they are is an extension and complication that ties into the themes and fleshes out the setting, much like Pangaeans, should you choose to include them. EE: Also, how do you determine 'why people get into the game'? For one thing, I'd bet a significant chunk of players in Chronicles games have no interest in the themes of the games, and just want to play a tabletop game where they're a vampire or a werewolf or a wizard. In which case, a literal bestiary of Pangaeans for hunting would be entirely in that vein for Werewolf, while The Pack, a supplement all about fleshing out the non-werewolf surroundings for the PCs, would not. Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 02:59 on Apr 2, 2019 |
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Apr 2, 2019 02:55
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What page in the Werewolf core does Father Wolf talk about actually being so cool he casts Supernal spells like that Mage game you could also purchase? E: like wow, Strix is literally first introduced on page 197 in the VtR 2e core book? This is the second time the guy I say made published fanon mentions something in a core book; like I can lay off directly telling you I don't like what you write so you can cool down and come back better equipped to handle critique. Gerund fucked around with this message at 03:07 on Apr 2, 2019 |
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Apr 2, 2019 03:00
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Jesus Christ shut the gently caress up you awful rear end in a top hat
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Apr 2, 2019 03:03
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Gerund posted:Page of the beast, nice. Just thought I'd pop upthread and look what I found, Gerund quoting supplemental - dare I say it - published fanon to suggest that Arcadia has its own external, giant ancient god existence that reinforces the cycle of the True Fae and is in fact a hidden underlying change to the entire line. A truth which can only be found in supplements, not the core.
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Apr 2, 2019 03:03
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Hey cool more stuff that already existed in the core of Changeling the Lost. Try going for some stuff that only exists in, like, actual supplements like the Strix- oh wait
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Apr 2, 2019 03:06
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Gerund posted:Hey cool more stuff that already existed in the core of Changeling the Lost. Try going for some stuff that only exists in, like, actual supplements like the Strix- oh wait So is it literally 'this noun existed' that's your contention? Oh wait, no it's not, because applying new qualities to Father Wolf (and all those ancient monsters, later named Pangaeans but definitely present) isn't kosher. So the deeper Strix lore, the 'hints' and 'implications' from supplements, those are quite literally precisely what you declared the basis of published fanon. I suppose new nouns are too much for you? E: As far as I know, Strix are entirely supplemental in 1e, and emerge in 2e as a major new antagonist that totally reshapes vampiric nightlife retroactively by their presence. Which is cool by me, I don't act like supplements and the line developing are the work of wreckers. Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 03:10 on Apr 2, 2019 |
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Apr 2, 2019 03:08
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Please stop responding to Gerund, do anything else Talk about mage Talk abut loving beast, even
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Apr 2, 2019 03:11
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Mors Rattus posted:Please stop responding to Gerund, do anything else Honestly, thanks. So uh, Mage-wise, I need some dangers for players to run into going into a stretch of desert the Father wants cordoned off - but also, that the Father doesn't particularly care to use Seers on, because a Pentacle-aligned Archmaster* is accessible in the wasteland. I'm thinking some kind of angelic entity is going to show up, and I need one that will be sufficiently scary to be a threat, but not actually chase a competent cabal away because I do want them to make it to the Archmaster with the quintessence they collected for her. Obviously that's a vague ask, because mages have such varied capabilities; I think the highest arcana the cabal has collectively are 4 life, 4 mind, 4 space, and 3 matter/3 prime/3 forces (and everyone has a few dots in other areas as well). I just want intimidating but not actually lethal rear end in a top hat Angel ideas for the Father's watchdogs.
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Apr 2, 2019 03:16
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Joe Slowboat posted:So is it literally 'this noun existed' that's your contention? Oh wait, no it's not, because applying new qualities to Father Wolf (and all those ancient monsters, later named Pangaeans but definitely present) isn't kosher. So the deeper Strix lore, the 'hints' and 'implications' from supplements, those are quite literally precisely what you declared the basis of published fanon. I suppose new nouns are too much for you? New nouns for games that are also made hyper sweet because they use game systems that are separate from the initial premise, that are Ancient Strutural Creatures Of The Deepest Lore? I'll strip it fown here to something I could publish, as a fan, right now: Ancient True Fae that use vampire powers and are the real monsters and actually hunt True Fae and its now your choice to ally with your former keeper and hey heres some more vampire setting implications ontop of that like fae Ghouls or whatever. It sounds kinda cool! For my own game, because I'm literally just a fan.
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Apr 2, 2019 03:18
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Lord, yes, moving on. A question sparked by reading something a bit back - is there the implication in Forsaken 2E that Father Wolf was perhaps not the nicest primordial incarnation of lupine-ness and had it coming?
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Apr 2, 2019 03:18
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So it seems like Contagion Chronicle is weird because it's actually like twelve different specialized settings and not actually a single chronicle? Some of it honestly sounds pretty cool but I wish they'd make that more clear at the beginning so that I didn't get confused by expecting something else.
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Apr 2, 2019 03:18
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Dawgstar posted:Lord, yes, moving on. A question sparked by reading something a bit back - is there the implication in Forsaken 2E that Father Wolf was perhaps not the nicest primordial incarnation of lupine-ness and had it coming? Well, he was the force of hunting, so him not being super nice is practically text. And certainly, something convinced five tribes and their Firstborn that he had to die for the good of all.
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Apr 2, 2019 03:20
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Actually, please post more, Gerund, I enjoyed reading your older posts from back in the days of previous iterations of this thread, and felt kind of sad when you stopped posting in it for a long while, much like some other good posters that don't post here much anymore. The fact that Changeling the Lost is my favorite WoD (possibly RPG in general) game probably helps with that high opinion of you, as you've always seemed to 'get it' extremely well. Also, people not getting his point are being kind of obtuse. Let me ask you this: was Splinter of the Mind's Eye canon back before the Star Wars EU got euthanized by Disney? Was The Book of Vile Darkness canon in 3.whatever, particularly given that it covered things like various big-name demon princes and whatnot, until 4e rolled along? Yes, he's being a bit extreme in his opinion of supplemental material and its relevance, but it's far from ridiculous. One can disagree without claiming he's arguing in bad faith or trolling.
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Apr 2, 2019 03:27
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Rand Brittain posted:So it seems like Contagion Chronicle is weird because it's actually like twelve different specialized settings and not actually a single chronicle? Some of it honestly sounds pretty cool but I wish they'd make that more clear at the beginning so that I didn't get confused by expecting something else. I'd just blame CCP for initially not wanting a second edition because it made the nWoD sound like it was alive and an alternative to their doomed MMO. (You know the one, the one that needed more... pssssht.) None of the so-titled Chronicles have really been a traditional adventure path except maybe the God-Machine Chronicle, and even then it was primarily presided as a series of modular hooks with some advice on how to make a longer term story by linking them together. The Contagion Chronicle appears to obey the same outline that the 2e corebooks have obeyed from Requiem: here's who you play as, here's the setting elements, here's a themed antagonistic force, here's a series of playsets that serve as examples of how to use these toys. It doesn't work as well because the antagonistic force seems (currently, from what we have now) even more vaguely defined than the God-Machine, and the whole thing has to bolt onto other preexisting setting layouts rather than standing on its own. But it doesn't really seem less like a single chronicle than any of the other 2e "chronicle books" are.
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Apr 2, 2019 03:31
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E: I mean, so, Contagion Chronicles! I would really appreciate anyone who could post about what exactly the example settings are like? Maybe we could get a better sense of what the hell the Contagion is from them.
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Apr 2, 2019 03:36
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Gerund posted:What page in the Werewolf core does Father Wolf talk about actually being so cool he casts Supernal spells like that Mage game you could also purchase? That Father Wolf himself isn't a spirit is in fact implicit in the 1E WtF core. You need later books to get more specifics but that's also true for Gentry, Seers, whatever.
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Apr 2, 2019 03:43
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Joe Slowboat posted:E: I mean, so, Contagion Chronicles! I think the thing is, the Contagion is something different in each of them. That's why the splat stuff is so vague about it, because the question has no answer away from the table.
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Apr 2, 2019 03:46
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Rand Brittain posted:I think the thing is, the Contagion is something different in each of them. That's why the splat stuff is so vague about it, because the question has no answer away from the table. Does... does it give any guidelines to constructing 'your' Contagion? Or advice on how to make the themes of different lines talk to each other in a useful way?
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Apr 2, 2019 03:47
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Yeah, there doesn't seem to be....you know, a strong core idea to build from. Not for nothing but "Weird poo poo generically happening in the background to bring people together" is....that's just the CoD default. Might as well be the God-Machine, or the Exarchs, or some weird Underworld poo poo happening. What's the new thing bring to the table?
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Apr 2, 2019 03:57
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Joe Slowboat posted:Does... does it give any guidelines to constructing 'your' Contagion? We don't have previews of the relevant parts of the book yet for that. The previewed individual settings so far are: Edinburgh, where there are two dueling diseases: a blood blight through which contagious vampires spread the hunger and banes of the Curse to those they drink from, and a communicable God-Machine countermeasure that erases the blight by petrifying mortal carriers. And the blood blight's contagion has also somehow weakened the walls of reality and summoned an invading alien god-pharaoh who's taken over the National Museum of Scotland and turned it into a flesh-farm of worshipful slaves. And Odense, where Knut the Holy has risen, undead, whose panoply communicates an extreme depressive contagion that escalates into catatonia. The vampire king has allied with one of the False factions, who are actively working to shred up the items of his panoply and distribute little inconspicuous shreds of them in order to spread the contagion. His bloodline carries symptoms that prevent them from drawing nutrition from mortals or animals. I Am Just a Box fucked around with this message at 04:05 on Apr 2, 2019 |
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Apr 2, 2019 04:02
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Yeah so far the Contagion Chronicle sample settings only seem to be united by being crossover games, and even then, being crossovers by dint of being "the gribbly of X, but not being a good tonal fit for that game" like Edinburgh being a mummy through the lens of hedonistic over-doing it vamp-style, and Odense being a vampire feeding plague with a side order of spirit sickness / 1e Geist curse feel. Which is unfortunate, as someone currently backing it at physical book tier. Maybe the next previews will be a little more encouraging. At least the sample power they showed is kind of cute—it does different things to its base "touch a physical piece of a network to see data on it" power based on your splat, with the death-aligned splats (geists, vampires, prometheans iirc?) getting the ability to do an "eyes of the dead" style "see last thing this saw" on like, smashed servers or phones with dead batteries.
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Apr 2, 2019 04:06
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Also the alien mummy sends out ghost-servitors in Twilight that explicitly only Sin-Eaters can see, for reasons, and who leave victims with the same communicable petrification as the God-Machine's countermeasure does.
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Apr 2, 2019 04:08
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I Am Just a Box posted:Also the alien mummy sends out ghost-servitors in Twilight that explicitly only Sin-Eaters can see, for reasons, and who leave victims with the same communicable petrification as the God-Machine's countermeasure does. ...while the scenario does sound pretty unfocused, could one instead suggest the God-Machine imported an extradimensional horror pharaoh because that's how it dialed up a communicable petrification disease?
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Apr 2, 2019 04:21
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I Am Just a Box posted:Edinburgh, where there are two dueling diseases: a blood blight through which contagious vampires spread the hunger and banes of the Curse to those they drink from, and a communicable God-Machine countermeasure that erases the blight by petrifying mortal carriers. And the blood blight's contagion has also somehow weakened the walls of reality and summoned an invading alien god-pharaoh who's taken over the National Museum of Scotland and turned it into a flesh-farm of worshipful slaves. Is that the place that has The Other City or am I thinking of Glasgow?
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Apr 2, 2019 04:29
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Mendrian posted:I have a Mage question that hopefully won't devolve into Magechat. I've recently started a 2e Awakening campaign and it's going alright, although it's very early days. I printed out references of: - the basic lexicon of each order and path (including their related terms, like 'Lunargent Thorn', and what an Exarch is) - All the practices - A better more accessible quick reference magic guide than what's in the back of the book Between all those three they've been able to muddle their way through and have a decent time. The only stumbling block seems to be that coming from DnD, and because there's a bunch of sample spells, they don't seem to have fully internalised that magic is freeform. The next proper session is in a week and I'm hoping to hear a player say something like "I want to do this... that's Shielding Prime, right?" without having to crack the book open.
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Apr 2, 2019 04:52
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Jesus loving Christ, what did I create? I’m sorry, I’m sorry. Who do I have to throw into a volcano to get the thread gods to reseal mage-chat back into its ancient tomb.
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Apr 2, 2019 05:06
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jakodee posted:Jesus loving Christ, what did I create? I’m sorry, I’m sorry. Who do I have to throw into a volcano to get the thread gods to reseal mage-chat back into its ancient tomb. Gerund
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Apr 2, 2019 05:07
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Dawgstar posted:Is that the place that has The Other City or am I thinking of Glasgow? You're thinking of Glasgow, but thank you for bringing this up, because I've only given that book the thinnest of skims before and the Other City is very cool and horrid.
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Apr 2, 2019 05:09
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MollyMetroid posted:Gerund Turns out I'm a vampire, but only for hunting true fae, and have been around in my own private spectrum of the universe that no one mentioned before today in this supplement to Magechat. You must have earned at least 1000 beats (individually, not group beats) to slay me. I know this wasn't in the core thread but you'll just have to accept that.
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Apr 2, 2019 05:30
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Gerund posted:Turns out I'm a vampire, but only for hunting true fae, and have been around in my own private spectrum of the universe that no one mentioned before today in this supplement to Magechat. You must have earned at least 1000 beats (individually, not group beats) to slay me. HUMANS Who wished to pay you tribute?
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Apr 2, 2019 05:40
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EimiYoshikawa posted:Actually, please post more, Gerund, I enjoyed reading your older posts from back in the days of previous iterations of this thread, and felt kind of sad when you stopped posting in it for a long while, much like some other good posters that don't post here much anymore. The fact that Changeling the Lost is my favorite WoD (possibly RPG in general) game probably helps with that high opinion of you, as you've always seemed to 'get it' extremely well. I'm sorry, but you appear to have made a horrible mistake.
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Apr 2, 2019 05:40
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The thing about metaphors is you can really only tell one story with them, and changing the context of the metaphor in order to expand the number of stories you can tell isn't allowed because everything is perfect the first time it's published. edit: i mean revised. edit: i mean chronicled. edit3: what i'm trying to say is, you have to start from the assumption that the core books are the perfect representation of the metaphor, and all other contexts of that metaphor are invalid because the stories they tell are different. edit 4: (Dark Ages edition) Wot me point iz, izzat those bookie-loos wot are in them iv'ry tors, them's the REAL books. edit 5: i disagree with Gerund. edit 6: attempted to build an MMO based on this disagreement. Failed due to insufficient sales of salacious malkavian tiddy JPGs. Retooling to a Fortnight clone. PHIZ KALIFA fucked around with this message at 06:05 on Apr 2, 2019 |
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Apr 2, 2019 05:53
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Nessus, my core premise was to talk poo poo about how creepy Swedracula is and post about CtL but the supplement where I post using Ferrinus rules seems poorly thought out in all honesty.PHIZ KALIFA posted:The thing about metaphors is you can really only tell one story with them, and changing the context of the metaphor in order to expand the number of stories you can tell isn't allowed because everything is perfect the first time it's published. I laughed at the Dark Ages one tho.
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Apr 2, 2019 06:04
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Dracula masterminded the assassination of Lincoln. I love this insane book.
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Apr 2, 2019 08:33
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Gyrotica posted:Yeah. When Mage20 came out my reaction was you had one job... M20 is somewhat astonishing of just how bad a job OPP did on it. For reasons that escape me, they decided to give the job of writing an updated version of Ascension to known madman and then publishing what he wrote unedited.
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Apr 2, 2019 09:39
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loving hell gerund re the contagion chronicle stuff honestly id be much more interested in just straight up doing scenarios where one factions big threat spinning out of control ends up pulling other splats into the issue and possibly loving up the masquerade like hey what happens when the god machine changes gears and is now very much everybody's primary concern, etc
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Apr 2, 2019 11:01
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Dawgstar posted:Lord, yes, moving on. A question sparked by reading something a bit back - is there the implication in Forsaken 2E that Father Wolf was perhaps not the nicest primordial incarnation of lupine-ness and had it coming? He was basically Dire Wolf but more, and Dire Wolf isn't exactly a chill dad. I think the Pure are one of my favorite things about Forsaken. I love their thoughts about the Forsaken are not technically wrong but they are mostly just coming from a nonhuman viewpoint about the world. Also working for notably unstable and whimsical spirit Luna isn't the best way to get fans. It is weird that the Pure outnumber the Forsaken though.
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Apr 2, 2019 11:12
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