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it's unfortunate because the dialogue writing is actually perfectly fine at conveying tone, so it's less that they're relying on narration to do it than the narration being completely unnecessary sometimes speaking of the editing, is the point-of-view of the narration frequently changing from first to third person and back again bad editing or should i pay attention to that Feels Villeneuve fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Apr 3, 2019 |
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Apr 3, 2019 17:40
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Feels Villeneuve posted:feel free not to answer this if it would ruin too much of it, but how much should I be worrying myself w/r/t trying to solve the mystery myself rather than enjoying it as a thriller/mystery piece so far? i've definitely heard that the riddle is basically impossible for non-native Japanese speakers, for instance.
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Apr 3, 2019 17:47
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Feels Villeneuve posted:speaking of the editing, is the point-of-view of the narration frequently changing from first to third person and back again bad editing or should i pay attention to that it's somewhat common in jp lit in general but you might want to pay attention also from scene to scene i mean, if it switches between a couple lines that's just editing vv yeah I dunno if it is necessarily a traditional thing but it comes up in modern stuff Yakiniku Teishoku fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Apr 3, 2019 |
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Apr 3, 2019 17:52
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Yakiniku Teishoku posted:it's somewhat common in jp lit in general but you might want to pay attention also that's actually super interesting, I didn't know that about JP lit at all! anyway i'm gonna start Ch2 tonight so thanks everyone for annoying me with spoiler bars to the point where I finally broke down and played this thing, because it's really enjoyable past the start so far
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Apr 3, 2019 17:56
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The actual epitaph riddle really requires Japanese knowledge, but solving that was more of a fun diversion for fans on the official forums than a critical part of the experience.
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Apr 3, 2019 18:16
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No Wave posted:The biggest slog imo is the first half of chapter 4 but then it's smoother. God drat some day I hope to finish ch4. Between how much of a slog it seems to be and the fact that every time I try to play it it seems to crash a few hours in and I need to re-advance all the way to wherever I was and check the logs to figure out if I missed anything, it's just impossible to sit down and do it. I feel like coming off of ch3 kind of hurts it, since chapter 3 just dials every aspect of the craziness up to 11. Still, the philosophical sort of stuff that it seems to be hinting at in the most oblique ways imaginable are really tantalizing so I need to finish it and get to the Answer Arcs. I'm very curious to see how the answer arcs work after going through Higurashi 1-6 (by the way, where the hell is 7, M-G?). The whole 'game board' structure where at least some version/aspect of Battler is aware of the loops kind of seems like it probably can't work similarly to Higurashi where the answer arcs seem to tie into the individual stories pretty strongly? I'm obviously overthinking it but that's what Umineko does.
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Apr 3, 2019 18:23
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I threw together a Discord for VN stuff. https://discord.gg/Hm6xy4 It'll allow for 18+ discussion as well as the usual stuff. It'll cover a bit more than Higurashi\Umineko\Fata Morgana since there's always non-all ages stuff that has good plot but can't be discussed because of some people's inability to stop being creepy.
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Apr 3, 2019 19:03
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NikkolasKing posted:What's with this Diabolik Lovers VN and Rejet? You know why. That said, it might actually be for the greater good.
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Apr 3, 2019 20:19
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Meallan posted:You know why. I honestly don't know. I don't know anything about the game, I just have seen it mentioned on r/otomegames a few times where surveys are posted where fans ask various companies to localize it but it will never happen because the company that made it refuse to do so. So it made me curious why.
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Apr 4, 2019 00:16
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NikkolasKing posted:I've heard of companies not caring about foreign fans but this is a whole other level of weird. What could possibly be the motivation for refusing to let something be lccalized in spite of interest? Are there a lot of Japanese companies like that? There can be a lot of reasons. Some have vastly over inflated ideas of how much their properties are worth and demand far more money than any localisation company can pay. Some are very protective of their own writing and won't allow their work to be localized because they don't have the time or the foreign language skills to ensure that the translation is up to their standards. Some are frightened of potential backlash if themes and subjects acceptable to the domestic audience are poorly received internationally. And a few of them are probably just massive racists. I've no knowledge of this case so I can't tell you which one it's likely to be.
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Apr 4, 2019 00:44
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NRVNQSR posted:There can be a lot of reasons. Some have vastly over inflated ideas of how much their properties are worth and demand far more money than any localisation company can pay. Some are very protective of their own writing and won't allow their work to be localized because they don't have the time or the foreign language skills to ensure that the translation is up to their standards. Some are frightened of potential backlash if themes and subjects acceptable to the domestic audience are poorly received internationally. And a few of them are probably just massive racists. It could easily be the backlash thing; Rejet games are notorious for being full of romanticized abuse even by otome game standards.
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Apr 4, 2019 02:41
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428 Shibuya Scramble 17:00 That character's plotline just... ended? Oh god 
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Apr 4, 2019 09:52
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unimeko ch2 hey can we ignore solving these boring murder problems and ask why kanon and a goatman are having an anime energy sword fight
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Apr 4, 2019 14:32
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I loved that scene. Chapter 2 is my favorite.
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Apr 4, 2019 14:47
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Do you all read Western visual novels? Personally I am bored the overpoliticization of everything and most of the projects I see have MESSAGE all over them, not stories which attach you to characters and draw you in with humor and cuteseyness then break your heart. Are there good ones? How much do you think the appeal of visual novels comes from their Japanese-ness? Are anime tropes necessary? Is anime style art necessary? Do they need to have grandiose, overly long, convoluted plot lines or can they be considered time worthy as shorter, poignant, novella-type work? I started reading these a few years ago because Higurashi seemed so utterly terrible on its face yet was popping up constantly as being recommended to me based on games I enjoy. I’m shocked by how few resources need to go into the creation of these things (probably less than half the marketing budget) and it could easily become a solid business in the West. But there’s a hurdle. What do you think the hurdle is? Incorrect product market fit? What sort of visual novel would you like to see companies producing in English? Presumably this would be hard PG-13 visual novels, with blood but not gore, attractive cast but no sex. Target market probably 12-32 year old, probably 70% female. Are the dating sim elements part of it? For me it is the branching paths and endings. I don’t like the romance bits.
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Apr 4, 2019 15:23
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Be Depressive posted:Do you all read Western visual novels? Personally I am bored the overpoliticization of everything and most of the projects I see have MESSAGE all over them, not stories which attach you to characters and draw you in with humor and cuteseyness then break your heart. Are there good ones? If "MESSAGE" is a problem to you, western VNs are not where you need to be. I won't go into the "politics are more there than you think" explanation but you just aren't looking. VNs are basically stories where you don't need to imagine anything. It's all done for you. Anime art style is far from necessary, see House in Fata Morgana, but considering this is a japanese concept as a whole, it's more often than not. The genre deals with a stigma of underage characters and an entire sub-genre that is just there for wank material. As a whole genre, Short and long VNs are both worthy depending on what is done. It's a case by case basis. Did Fate\Stay Night need to be like 30 hours? I think so. You might not. From a financial standpoint, VNs are a solid business in the US. Take a look at companies like MangaGamer or Sekai Project. Both are just VN based. They do fine and license\fund projects all the time. Small indie ones are popping up constantly. Take a look at itch.io or browse Steam. There's little gems all over the place.
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Apr 4, 2019 15:37
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I feel like I just read something that Sekai wasn't doing so hot, but I don't know/remember the particulars and whether it was VNs specifically not doing as well.
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Apr 4, 2019 15:44
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aren't explicit dating sim VNs pretty rare these days? like the ones which are actually about choosing what to do on a date
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Apr 4, 2019 15:45
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Feels Villeneuve posted:aren't explicit dating sim VNs pretty rare these days? like the ones which are actually about choosing what to do on a date I find them less common than years ago. The story-based genres seem to do a lot better overall. Nate RFB posted:I feel like I just read something that Sekai wasn't doing so hot, but I don't know/remember the particulars and whether it was VNs specifically not doing as well. That's quite possible. They're still licensing\funding work so the market is still there from what I can gather. It isn't a huge boom but it's certainly ramped up in the past 5 years or so.
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Apr 4, 2019 15:48
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Irritated Goat posted:If "MESSAGE" is a problem to you, western VNs are not where you need to be. These are just my impressions as a consumer - right now I’m reading a fab translation of Ever17 on an old PSP and the fact that I can’t find anything at least ~this~ good on the App Store worries me.
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Apr 4, 2019 15:55
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i don't think a lot of western VNs are explicitly political unless like you're assuming the existence of lesbians is a polemic or something
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Apr 4, 2019 16:02
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Be Depressive posted:Do you all read Western visual novels? Personally I am bored the overpoliticization of everything and most of the projects I see have MESSAGE all over them, not stories which attach you to characters and draw you in with humor and cuteseyness then break your heart. Are there good ones? The length I think is important because I think VN fans like getting attached to characters and having a long time to do it (their length makes the way the stories play out feel more like video games than audiobooks). They don't have to be as ridiculously long as they often end up being, people certainly got attached to the characters in DDLC in a few hours. The telltale games were themselves (temporarily) popular western visual novels and there are for sure people who would be interested in the format who are put off by the social suicide flavor of anime. You still have to tell a story lots of people want to hear and putting pleasant romance stuff in like Stein;s Gate is an easy way to do it, the same is true in western young adult fiction and western fiction in general.
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Apr 4, 2019 16:02
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Irritated Goat posted:If "MESSAGE" is a problem to you, western VNs are not where you need to be This confuses me greatly as I know a lot of western VNs and I am struggling to think of more than one or two out of hundreds that I would consider full of MESSAGEs. Unless the Message is "I love Japan and want to shamelessly mimic it despite not really understanding what I'm talking about", because that's pretty common., especially among amateur writers. Are we talking about Kickstarter games, maybe? Some of those do tend to have a lot of overblown marketing BS talking about how much greater their game is than any VN that has ever come before, which sometimes includes going on and on about Diversity or Player Agency or something, in ways that are often rather insulting to existing fans of the genre. I tune that kind of thing out, most of those projects never get completed anyway, and the more they talk about how revolutionary they are the more likely they are to just take the money and run. (There was a famous example of that but I can't remember the title.) Are we talking about "overpoliticising everything" because of the handful of Western parody games where you can date Trump or Hitler? Basically, I have no idea what your reference point is.
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Apr 4, 2019 17:08
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Be Depressive posted:Presumably this would be hard PG-13 visual novels, with blood but not gore, attractive cast but no sex. Target market probably 12-32 year old, probably 70% female. This is a weird comment apart from otome/BL a majority of VN is aimed towards older male players if you compare the sheer amount of it available in JPN and overseas. I imagine a 12 y.o. could read the same VN but HS settings really aim for ppl in their 20+ vs actual HS kids. Yeah there's non-romance VN like there are non-romance books. Also, ratings for VN varies from E to R18 so not sure what you mean.
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Apr 4, 2019 18:43
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imo Western VNs aren't political enough. It's a terrible shame that the ISIS dating sim didn't reach its funding goal. While I'm here, I've only been through this one once since I have other games I want to get through, but I enjoyed it a lot: https://store.steampowered.com/app/815450/Cardinal_Cross/ The main character rules in all three "personalities", though I enjoyed the one that is always pissed off and sick of your poo poo the most.
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Apr 4, 2019 20:09
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Everything is political you can’t avoid it, the problem isn’t it’s to political it’s that it’s politics you personally don’t care for.
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Apr 4, 2019 20:24
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Be Depressive posted:Do you all read Western visual novels? Personally I am bored the overpoliticization of everything and most of the projects I see have MESSAGE all over them, not stories which attach you to characters and draw you in with humor and cuteseyness then break your heart. Are there good ones? Be Depressive posted:Well I just don’t think the politics of a game should be it’s selling point. As a customer I look at these message games and they don’t look fun and I don’t want to play them. But I would like to read something similar to Steins;Gate in English with a different story and tightly edited dialogue. On my iPhone, preferably. Might I recommend a fine VN called Sharin no Kuni, I think you'd find itbffffahahaha, I can't breathe
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Apr 4, 2019 20:50
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CharlestheHammer posted:Everything is political you can’t avoid it, the problem isn’t it’s to political it’s that it’s politics you personally don’t care for.
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Apr 4, 2019 23:09
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Klingon w Bowl Cut posted:imo Western VNs aren't political enough. It's a terrible shame that the ISIS dating sim didn't reach its funding goal. I could never tell if they were actually serious about making that game or just trolling. Though if you're into 'political humor' games, along with the hitler and trump ones, there's the North Korea game: https://store.steampowered.com/app/512060/Stay_Stay_Democratic_Peoples_Republic_of_Korea/
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Apr 4, 2019 23:24
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Alder posted:This is a weird comment apart from otome/BL a majority of VN is aimed towards older male players if you compare the sheer amount of it available in JPN and overseas. I imagine a 12 y.o. could read the same VN but HS settings really aim for ppl in their 20+ vs actual HS kids. I run a business and meet a lot of customers and pitch them different ideas to gauge their reactions - the US market for visual novels is largely female. I don’t know why this is - but to me it makes sense because when I worked at a bookstore that sold softcore gay porn about 50% of the customers were old men and the other half were women under 30. I’m interested in getting some talent together and making a serious of action/adventure/horror stories geared towards visual novel fans, but trying to sidestep any identity politics or political subtext by defining the MC/PC as little as possible. I’m not really certain what features of the genre are most appealing to different people, though, so I wanted to ask about this here. Edit: to me my experience with every VN has been coming to love characters I initially cannot stand. I also wonder whether this is necessary or an integral part of the secret sauce. CharlestheHammer posted:Everything is political you can’t avoid it, the problem isn’t it’s to political it’s that it’s politics you personally don’t care for. Nowadays there’s a problem with representation where excluding gay characters gets you criticism and including them gets you more criticism from the same people and listening to those people gets you even more backlash from other people, and I want to try something where you kind of let the reader project their own prejudice upon the story and define the characters for themselves. Be Depressive fucked around with this message at 01:30 on Apr 5, 2019 |
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Apr 5, 2019 00:28
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Be Depressive posted:I’m interested in getting some talent together and making a serious of action/adventure/horror stories geared towards visual novel fans, but trying to sidestep any identity politics or political subtext by defining the MC/PC as little as possible.
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Apr 5, 2019 00:59
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FractalSandwich posted:It's not really clear to me what you actually mean by "politics" or why you think it's an important thing to avoid, but if you don't want to elevate a specific character's point of view as the "canonical" one, you're probably better off using an ensemble cast and not having a main protagonist at all. The idea actually is the games would be about You, and written entirely second person, and we have characters and stuff we just don’t get into aspects of their lives that are irrelevant to the overall storyline. What I mean by avoiding politicization is that I generally will not buy a game if I think it’s going to spend time trying to educate me on gender norms or the legitimacy of sex work or anything similarly self serious. It’s fine if these products exist I just don’t want to buy or make one. Pretty much everything about American political culture in 2019 is completely toxic and I think people are becoming more desirous of media products completely outside that cultural bubble. I’m sorry if these parts don’t make sense - if you are interested in what I want to do (no funding as of yet so it’s so much smoke now) I can send you a more concise business plan. I think there’s a market for something that doesn’t ~quite~ exist yet, but I’m not sure exactly what the product will be.
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Apr 5, 2019 01:24
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Boy I just can't figure out why minorities would want to make fiction about how things could be just a little better and maybe get people to think about things.
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Apr 5, 2019 01:29
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kirbysuperstar posted:Boy I just can't figure out why minorities would want to make fiction about how things could be just a little better and maybe get people to think about things. Is this supposed to be making fun of me? I didn’t say anything about this. People can do what they want. I am just asking for advice about how to make appealing apolitical games that have no relationship whatsoever with the culture wars. Such as: is anime art necessary? (No) Are romantic/dating routes required (no?) Should it be very long (yes) Do all stories follow the first half of the game being setup? Is this part of the formula? (?) Also how many times to you usually play a game? Is it more interesting to have multiple endings or completely different story routes? Be Depressive fucked around with this message at 01:43 on Apr 5, 2019 |
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Apr 5, 2019 01:39
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deciding what is "apolitical" is a political action and thus it is impossible to make anything that is truly "apolitical"
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Apr 5, 2019 01:41
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Be Depressive posted:Nowadays there’s a problem with representation where excluding gay characters gets you criticism and including them gets you more criticism from the same people and listening to those people gets you even more backlash from other people, and I want to try something where you kind of let the reader project their own prejudice upon the story and define the characters for themselves. what
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Apr 5, 2019 01:42
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Alder posted:what Look at Twitter. It’s annoying as a creator. With certain communities you get slammed for being inclusive then slammed for being inclusive the wrong way, then slammed again for pandering to the squeaky wheels. So I just kind of have this idea where YOU can be the main character, and using that second person voice you are whoever you are now, or whoever you imagine yourself to be. The story doesn’t paint you as a woman or man, you are just you. You decide who you are. The game doesn’t tell you this, it just propels you forward.
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Apr 5, 2019 01:51
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Be Depressive posted:The idea actually is the games would be about You, and written entirely second person, and we have characters and stuff we just don’t get into aspects of their lives that are irrelevant to the overall storyline.
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Apr 5, 2019 02:03
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FractalSandwich posted:IF games have been narrated in the second person since forever, so that much is reasonable. They used to avoid making the player character a particular person too, but that's gone out of fashion exactly because that kind of specificity is really important to writing interesting characters. If you don't learn anything about who the NPCs are, and the NPCs can't possibly know anything about the PC, how can they interact with any kind of texture at all? Maybe that doesn't matter as much if you're making something more like a traditional video game where that's not necessarily what you're there for, but the depth and colour of characters is exactly what people like about visual novels. Going beyond their mechanical role in the story is precisely the point. Maybe it's possible to write a compelling mystery or something with a bunch of ciphers, but compelling mysteries exist in every medium, and looking for shared points of appeal in visual novels in particular is probably barking up the wrong tree. Thanks for this, yeah I’m not sure how it will work out, I’ll continue working on the proof of concept. The first two “games” we are making have no characters and are kind of myst/zork like.
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Apr 5, 2019 02:22
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Yeah you can’t make an apolitical game that isn’t just nothing happening.
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Apr 5, 2019 02:38
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