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angryrobots posted:Nobody has a high horse - you asked a question, didn't get the answer you wanted, and got mad. If you're gonna be like that just do WTF ever you want and don't ask here. Don't forget posting things like this in regards to ground: Ferrule posted:It may carry a current. Once. In an extreme case. This is the not kind of thing I'd expect to hear from an electrician, but would from an apprentice cable puller.
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Apr 8, 2019 16:36
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Regarding Aluminum wires and corrosion: wouldn't that problem happen with Al-Al connections as well, or is it specifically worse for Al-Cu bonds due to dissimilar metals or something? I guess if you have a proper mechanical bond then you aren't going to get (significant) corrosion where the bonded wires touch with the same metal, but would with dissimilar ones?
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Apr 8, 2019 16:44
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Hubis posted:Regarding Aluminum wires and corrosion: wouldn't that problem happen with Al-Al connections as well, or is it specifically worse for Al-Cu bonds due to dissimilar metals or something? Galvanic corrosion occurs when two dissimilar metals are joined and it’s accelerated by electrical current.
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Apr 8, 2019 17:18
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Hubis posted:Regarding Aluminum wires and corrosion: wouldn't that problem happen with Al-Al connections as well, or is it specifically worse for Al-Cu bonds due to dissimilar metals or something? It's not so much a dissimilar metal thing in this case, it's primarily that AL corrodes (but yeah, worse when touching copper). That's why you're supposed to crimp (very, very solid metal-to-metal with sufficient unexposed surface area to carry the current) or use an alumacon. Or noalox and the right wire nut (the type with a spiral spring in them), but I really don't like that method much, even though it's approved in many jurisdictions. It just seems to me that eventually metal fatigue will make the spring ineffective.
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Apr 8, 2019 17:22
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BIGFOOT EROTICA posted:wait you actually have to bend emt/pull thwn for every box in chicago? Yeah. But it's pretty easy once you get into it. quote:everyone else Look. I'm sorry. Let me back up, take a breath, apologize again, and repeat some things in order to be more civil. I came to ask a few things about AL-Cu, because it's not something I have come across a ton of. Back when I was an apprentice practice was still "no-alox and a black/brown wire nut". I know that has method has changed, and for good reason. I know there are newer methods of handling AL splices and AL-Cu pigtails. I have heard about purple twists, and that, since they've been around for a while, there have been instances of failure. I wanted to know if anyone has first hand experience with that and if they knew what the root cause was (installation or the nut itself). I also know about Alumniconns. But they are limiting, in the sense they have 3 "ports", which would mean in a larger, say 3gang box where there are large splices, you would need several individual connectors all jumping out and together (if I'm understanding correctly). They are also fairly new, if I recall, and although they haven't been known to fail is there still a chance they may? And then I asked about purple twist/alumniconn/regular wire nut for the AL-Cu grounds. It was here I was accused of not knowing anything about grounds or electrical in general and here that I became defensive and snarky. So I will again apologize. I have a contractor I do work for who has a remodel that is aluminum. I have removed what I can in the areas where the walls are open, beyond just the kitchen and bath remodel I was asked to rough. However, there are still some things that need to be properly pigtailed. Mostly outlets (and that can be done with Alumniconns). But there are some junction boxes in the (accessible, although full of blown-in insulation) attic and a few larger switch boxes where multiple neutrals and hots are spliced. More than 2. In some instance 6 or 7. The house is a loving nightmare. I don't need to take this job. I can recommend that the homeowner hire one of the two Copalum certified companies here to handle that but I sincerely doubt they would pay for it and would end up ignoring the problem or doing it themselves (or having one of the carpenters or drywall guys or something do it) and that option won't let me sleep at night. Again, I apologize for getting defensive and snarky. And yes, Chicago code is weird but pipe is awesome once you get the hang of it. And to answer someone's question, I think code there is still 6ft for an outlet. Might be 8. I don't live there anymore. It's really not that expensive, either.
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Apr 8, 2019 17:33
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As a homeowner I would absolutely love EMT running between every junction. I just definitely would not want to have to do it or pay for it.
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Apr 8, 2019 17:46
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Having well planned, well run conduit is loving amazing, but even in commercial I'd lose my mind if I couldn't ever run MC for new poo poo.
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Apr 8, 2019 18:18
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The entire city burns to the ground just ONCE and they get all touchy about building codes.
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Apr 8, 2019 18:33
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Motronic posted:The entire city burns to the ground just ONCE and they get all touchy about building codes. Yeah. But it took the Iroquois Theatre fire to really change building and fire codes. Conduit use is actually tied more to the unions.
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Apr 8, 2019 20:53
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Ferrule posted:Yeah. But it took the Iroquois Theatre fire to really change building and fire codes. *Reads about the Iriquois Theater Fire* Jesus loving Christ
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Apr 8, 2019 21:31
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Nevets posted:Does Chicago code dictate how many / far apart outlets have to be? I'm imagining alot of builders / renovators using the minimum outlets per room to save labor and money, and then the owner / renter using a forest of chained, undergrounded 16 gauge extension cords snaking along the walls and under the furniture. I actually really like emt, and will miss it when I move from the area. You'd be surprised how often having conduit throughout the house makes some new project much easier. I get why everyone else uses romex, but it will always feel odd and half-assed to me (I know it's not - don't yell at me).
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Apr 8, 2019 22:42
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Slugworth posted:Where we don't go overboard on code, we follow the national one, so yeah, we have code to follow on outlet spacing. I don't know if we end up having less outlets per room than other areas - I feel like code is pretty generous in that regard, but maybe owing to lower costs, people go all Groverhaus elsewhere? It's definitely the result of a strong union presence though - The plumbers union fought pvc for awhile as well. Buddy, I moved from the area. I hear ya. Let's go get a beer.
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Apr 9, 2019 00:11
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Ferrule posted:Chicago Clearly they allow it since you did it, but EMT/boxes alone is still allowed for grounding? Out here you've had to run a copper ground in it too for quite a while.
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Apr 9, 2019 00:12
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Hubis posted:*Reads about the Iriquois Theater Fire* Wanna a real treat? Look up Our Lady of Angels. That was 50 years later. Mimesweeper posted:Clearly they allow it since you did it, but EMT/boxes alone is still allowed for grounding? Out here you've had to run a copper ground in it too for quite a while. I mean, basic premise is metal tabs on device to metal box connected to metal pipe back to grounded panel. So the whole system is grounded. The box, the EMT, etc. I know it sounds ludicrous.
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Apr 9, 2019 00:22
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Ferrule posted:I mean, basic premise is metal tabs on device to metal box connected to metal pipe back to grounded panel. So the whole system is grounded. The box, the EMT, etc. I know it sounds ludicrous. No, it makes perfect sense. I know the copper is sort of redundant but I figured it was in the code for a reason. It's been illegal to use conduit as the ground since before I started doing this (in California). I've never bothered to look up if it's a local thing or in the NEC so I was curious. Mimesweeper fucked around with this message at 00:29 on Apr 9, 2019 |
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Apr 9, 2019 00:26
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Mimesweeper posted:No, it makes perfect sense. I've had an inspector or two want a pigtail to a ground screw on occasion but it was rare. Here in Ohio I've had one or two scratch their head for a moment before flipping through a book.
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Apr 9, 2019 00:31
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Mimesweeper posted:No, it makes perfect sense. Conduit is still an acceptable ground per NEC except in some weird cases I don't ever deal with and can't tell you about. IANAE
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Apr 9, 2019 00:35
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The only thing I can think is after all the old buildings I've seen with poorly supported conduit falling apart at the connectors I wouldn't even trust it to stay together if I built the whole thing with my own hands, but if that's how it is, that's how it is. Dealing with a million ground wires in a box is definitely annoying as gently caress though. We usually deal with it by using a larger can for anything with more than two or three connections and installing a ground bar. All it takes is one plumber in a crawlspace stomping his way through everything and BOOM someone's old conduit is thoroughly fuckled and also the entire floor's lights don't work and for some reason he's mad at YOU for telling the building engineer and project manager before fixing it. That definitely didn't get oddly specific for any sort of reason, I'm just making an example. edit #12: also I loving love bending EMT, maybe I should move to Chicago... there's a certain satisfaction to getting the math right on some weird rear end bend and having the piece fit perfectly where it's supposed to go. Mimesweeper fucked around with this message at 00:56 on Apr 9, 2019 |
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Apr 9, 2019 00:41
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Mimesweeper posted:All it takes is one plumber And then that one plumber comes in and cuts your poo poo out because he has to run a line there, too. And EMT and copper don't mix so you re-route and re-bend because you can't be right next to it.
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Apr 9, 2019 02:10
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Ferrule posted:And then that one plumber comes in and cuts your poo poo out because he has to run a line there, too. And EMT and copper don't mix so you re-route and re-bend because you can't be right next to it. Yep, that's construction. Sorry for doubting you, I was just worried cause Motronic posts have taught me more about grounding than I ever learned at work or reading code books and I didn't want your/future tenant's kids burned to death by some halfass bullshit.
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Apr 9, 2019 04:23
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What's a good terminal connector for speaker wire I am running through some 3/4" PVC? I some of it is coming out straight up in the open and I don't want to collect rain in them. I was going to default to caps through which I drill a hole out the side for the wire; I just won't cement it so I can do something else if that is super dumb.
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Apr 9, 2019 15:18
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:What's a good terminal connector for speaker wire I am running through some 3/4" PVC? If you were to ask the power utility/Verizon installers around here, they would recommend the biggest gob of duct seal molded around the end possible. I think they just miss playing with Play-Do as kids: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Gardner-Bender-1-lb-Plug-Duct-Seal-Compound-DS-110/100212441
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Apr 9, 2019 16:00
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I feel like if I stuck a meat thermometer probe in a bag of that and laid it around that I'd wind up in Gitmo or something. I'm not the only one that thought that looked like a slab of plastic explosive or something, right?
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Apr 9, 2019 16:51
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Slugworth posted:Where we don't go overboard on code, we follow the national one, so yeah, we have code to follow on outlet spacing. I don't know if we end up having less outlets per room than other areas - I feel like code is pretty generous in that regard, but maybe owing to lower costs, people go all Groverhaus elsewhere? It's definitely the result of a strong union presence though - The plumbers union fought pvc for awhile as well. I bent miles of EMT on rehab projects in suburban Chicago for years and I miss it since I sold my conduit benders and moved to Florida. Now I have to (well, I did - sold that house) deal with 20 Romex cables running from the panel crammed through 1 1/2" conduit into an attic... aluminum wire Romex. I used Alumicons to pigtail everything (had to rout in a bunch of 4x boxes to accommodate the added wire fill) and found at least a couple of outlets that showed serious signs of arcing since they were originally installed in 1967. gently caress aluminum wire. All hail THHN.
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Apr 9, 2019 17:09
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glynnenstein posted:Conduit is still an acceptable ground per NEC except in some weird cases I don't ever deal with and can't tell you about. IANAE There's a limit on boxes connected by flex on whether it can be used as a grounding method. I think it's 6 feet? Still, it is conduit and you can always pull a ground wire down it if it's too long.
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Apr 9, 2019 17:13
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kid sinister posted:There's a limit on boxes connected by flex on whether it can be used as a grounding method. I think it's 6 feet? Still, it is conduit and you can always pull a ground wire down it if it's too long. So this is interesting to me as old-rear end 2-conductor AC cable is essentially the only reason I have grounding in a lot of my circuits. Is this restriction due to accumulated resistance over the length of the sheathing? From a practical perspective, if my neutral-ground impedance at the far-end of such a circuit is reasonable (I think 7 Ohm is the guideline?) then I should still be fine, right?
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Apr 9, 2019 18:08
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:What's a good terminal connector for speaker wire I am running through some 3/4" PVC? I some of it is coming out straight up in the open and I don't want to collect rain in them. I was going to default to caps through which I drill a hole out the side for the wire; I just won't cement it so I can do something else if that is super dumb. I'm confused here. Youre asking about connectors for the speaker wire but you're worried about getting water in the PVC? Terminate the PVC to a outdoor box and then use a cable gland.
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Apr 9, 2019 21:14
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BIGFOOT EROTICA posted:I'm confused here. Youre asking about connectors for the speaker wire but you're worried about getting water in the PVC? I'm just trying to figure out how to run the speaker wire out of the conduit without it being a giant hole. I'm trying to avoid having a box up near the speaker due to size and aesthetics, but if that's what people do to do it right...
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Apr 10, 2019 07:06
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:I'm just trying to figure out how to run the speaker wire out of the conduit without it being a giant hole. I'm trying to avoid having a box up near the speaker due to size and aesthetics, but if that's what people do to do it right... Are you looking for something like a wall grommet? They make different size openings and they can be painted if you’re trying to conceal them.
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Apr 10, 2019 12:06
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I should probably give some more information here. The conduit is coming up the back side of a fence and the speaker is being mounted on top of a metal fence post that was left tall and uncut. So right now I have this 3/4" PVC shooting straight up like a bean stalk, cut at the fence line, and about another two feet to go into the speakers themselves. I'm trying to figure out how to cover that conduit while still getting the speaker wire out of it in some fashion. Would a wall grommet pointed straight up be okay for that?
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Apr 10, 2019 14:57
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How many speakers? Is your speaker wire jacketed or no? Is it burial rated? Is the jacket UV rated? Put a 3/4 pvc to threaded adapter on the end and screw in a 3/4 NPT threaded cable gland into the adapter. The number of openings you want in your cable gland depends but if you were running 2 speakers I would probably suggest 4 conductor speaker wire in a single burial rated jacket or slightly less optimally 2x 2 conductor in a burial jacket.
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Apr 10, 2019 15:10
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:I should probably give some more information here. The conduit is coming up the back side of a fence and the speaker is being mounted on top of a metal fence post that was left tall and uncut. So right now I have this 3/4" PVC shooting straight up like a bean stalk, cut at the fence line, and about another two feet to go into the speakers themselves. I'm trying to figure out how to cover that conduit while still getting the speaker wire out of it in some fashion. Would a wall grommet pointed straight up be okay for that? Aren't you mounting your speakers onto a box? Run the conduit straight into that box. Can you post a picture?
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Apr 10, 2019 15:20
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Hubis posted:So this is interesting to me as old-rear end 2-conductor AC cable is essentially the only reason I have grounding in a lot of my circuits. Is this restriction due to accumulated resistance over the length of the sheathing? From a practical perspective, if my neutral-ground impedance at the far-end of such a circuit is reasonable (I think 7 Ohm is the guideline?) then I should still be fine, right? AC has a grounding strip inside, in which case you use that for grounding. If it's the older BX, I assume that would fall under the requirements for flex. And yes, the restriction is for that reason. Go by the rules, not by your gut. Rocko Bonaparte posted:I'm just trying to figure out how to run the speaker wire out of the conduit without it being a giant hole. I'm trying to avoid having a box up near the speaker due to size and aesthetics, but if that's what people do to do it right... Install a box at the top, put an in use weatherproof cover on it. It's low voltage cable. The requirements for it are laughably unrestricted.
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Apr 10, 2019 21:19
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Rocko Bonaparte posted:I should probably give some more information here. The conduit is coming up the back side of a fence and the speaker is being mounted on top of a metal fence post that was left tall and uncut. So right now I have this 3/4" PVC shooting straight up like a bean stalk, cut at the fence line, and about another two feet to go into the speakers themselves. I'm trying to figure out how to cover that conduit while still getting the speaker wire out of it in some fashion. Would a wall grommet pointed straight up be okay for that? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_gland They're available with male NPT series threads, an elbow and threaded bushing on the end of your conduit should fix you right up nice and watertight. Depending on the cross section of your cable you might be able to skip the elbow, sometimes they have trouble closing a good seal around non-round wire. shame on an IGA fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Apr 10, 2019 |
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Apr 10, 2019 21:21
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H110Hawk posted:Aren't you mounting your speakers onto a box? Run the conduit straight into that box. Can you post a picture? Post of a picture of a post:  That's what I got right now. I'll be mounting the speakers up towards the top of the posts. I can of course attach other stuff on the end of that 3/4" conduit. It's not mounted to the fence yet since I haven't established what I'm doing yet. The cable I have is CL-3, and I'm running it through the conduit. The exposed part is a problem, I guess. I shouldn't have a bunch of it hanging pretty since the jacket will probably fail in sunlight. Mummify exposed cable in white electrical tape?
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Apr 11, 2019 02:24
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Why is the conduit on the opposite side of the fence from the post? Why are you not using the post itself as conduit?
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Apr 11, 2019 02:35
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Motronic posted:Why is the conduit on the opposite side of the fence from the post? Why are you not using the post itself as conduit? The fence was there before this whole scheme started and I didn't rally think of drilling into it and running the wire through it. The side with the conduit is a part of my land we don't look at. However, sure, I could mess around with that...
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Apr 11, 2019 04:17
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kid sinister posted:AC has a grounding strip inside, in which case you use that for grounding. If it's the older BX, I assume that would fall under the requirements for flex. And yes, the restriction is for that reason. Go by the rules, not by your gut. Oh sure, I'm just talking about existing stuff that's long since been buried/grandfathered in. Not "should I build it this way", just "is what's already there going to be a problem". And yeah, this is all the older BX, dating (I assume) from construction in 1951.
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Apr 11, 2019 11:43
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Hello thread! I know there's a couple clues based on shape that I can gleam from objects in my home. Example: The meter box outside is large and square, rather than fitting only the viewing dome for the meter, so I believe my limit on the meter is 100 amps. I have a washing machine with an odd-shaped plug, an AC unit, and some 20 amp breakers. My goal is to figure out if I would need to, or rather, WHAT I need to upgrade in order to fit a 240v table saw onto my breaker box without burning the whole fucker to the ground. I will (obviously) not be doing any of this poo poo myself, so let's get that out f the way. This is more of an exploratory venture, so I know how badly I'm about to get hosed by the contractor and have the tools to discern help from bullshit when I go to speak to someone. I'd like to avoid a "well, it'll be $500 dollars to get your headlight fluid flushed"-style swindling. I figure, the more money I can save by being better educated (and knowing where I stand in the first place), the more I can spend on the surgery to reattach my fingers when I eventually cut'em all off like an idiot.
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Apr 11, 2019 20:59
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Go take a picture of your breaker panel. Then sketch out a floor plan showing where that is in relation to where you want the 240v outlet.
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Apr 11, 2019 21:03
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