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flatluigi posted:I don't think needing to know how things are processed in a single step of the game is ever required to finish a puzzle, and when people are generally talking about 'esoteric information' it's of stuff you might not realize is a thing you can do (like in Skull House or Prison) and nothing of that sort.
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Apr 10, 2019 11:17
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| # ? Jun 2, 2024 12:47 |
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e:n/m
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Apr 10, 2019 19:07
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Venuz Patrol posted:personally i think "intuition" is kind of a false goal to reach for in puzzle games, since figuring out obscure, but logical interactions between mechanics is one of the central points of fun in playing them. I guess why it bugs me so much is that the order of operations for things tends to be really arbitrary, the polar opposite of logical. The solution I posted earlier that would succeed or fail depending on which Baba was doing the pushing is a good example of this; there IS a logical reason for one Baba to push differently than another, but that OOP logic is invisible and requires programming knowledge to intuit. And while yes, none of the puzzles require fiddling with OOP to solve, some of the possible solutions do, and if the solution you come up with first happens to be one that the invisible OOP rules invalidate then you’re plum out of luck.
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Apr 10, 2019 19:36
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As someone who's not very far in, I do feel like my understanding of how things operate and how certain text works is pretty foggy. Solving levels feels like it's half trial and error as much as it is actually figuring out the puzzle.
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Apr 10, 2019 20:45
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That's a shame to hear.  Are there particular levels that felt that way? I haven't heard that kind of complaints that much about the earlier levels but they could definitely be adjusted if it turns out that they're too obtuse.
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Apr 10, 2019 20:50
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Personally, the only puzzle where the solution bothered me that way so far has been Secure Cottage (I think that was the name), and I hear you patched that one out already. The only other puzzles I haven't particularly liked have been ones with long, fiddly set up steps that you have to go through before you can confirm whether you had the right idea. There aren't too many of those, though. I'm reserving judgment on Avalanche. My brain has made zero progress on it. Except for turning it into BABA, of course.
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Apr 10, 2019 21:04
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What was the problem with Secure Cottage? It makes complete sense in retrospect, and it made complete sense while figuring it out. The available options even lead you directly toward the idea of swapping around the key and the door, just by virtue of being able to turn them into rocks (it's a weird enough option that it's suspicious, and the only thing it allows you to do is keep the keys and doors separate while you transfigure them). Also how was it changed in the patch? It looks to me like it's about the same (Switch, 1.0.3).
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Apr 10, 2019 21:20
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I don't know about anyone else, but what bothered me a bit about that level is I don't think I've been taught before that when OPEN and SHUT annihilate each other, the object you're pushing doesn't actually end up on the spot with the door as I assumed it would. That level hinges on the fact that the door is on the outside of the house, otherwise the rock it HAS would block entry. I spent ages on the level assuming doing that wouldn't help because I'd just end up with a rock in the same spot anyway regardless of whether I pushed a key into a door or a door into a key.
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Apr 10, 2019 22:44
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Hyper Crab Tank posted:I don't know about anyone else, but what bothered me a bit about that level is... Same for the last sentence. Nowhere else is it expressed or implied that there is a difference between OPEN being pushed onto SHUT and SHUT being pushed onto OPEN. Or that there's any situation where a HAS object would spawn in a space other than the one where the two objects met and annihilated. Everywhere else, even if a word interaction took me a while to guess, I've thought "Of course it works that way!" in the end.
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Apr 10, 2019 23:30
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I removed the level (after 1.0.3 hit, though) due to that. The underlying logic is that since Open and Shut can interact even if one of them is Stop, the interaction must happen before they occupy the same space, kinda like how Push works. Therefore if a Key is Push And Open, and a Door is Shut And Stop, pushing the Key against the Door makes whatever results of the Key disappearing happen one tile away from the door. As I discussed earlier, it's one of those cases where the logic makes internal sense and in this case could technically be figured out to an extent, but is still obscure and cornercasey - enough so that despite initially liking the level a lot I haven't felt that good about it lately. Also as mentioned earlier, I'll try to restrain myself from editing/removing/changing all levels that could potentially make the player use less intuitive mechanics, but pruning/adjusting them a bit feels pretty safe.
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Apr 10, 2019 23:39
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For a level named "Queue" The trick there is hilarious. I figured out what the ice was for pretty early on but didn't think hard enough about how to use that and kept trying to do other wrong things before finally revisiting that idea and solving it very quickly from there.
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Apr 11, 2019 01:07
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I want to be clear that i don't dislike solutions that use order-of-operations trickiness, in fact i think the game would be far less fascinating without those around as options to consider, i just wish it surfaced or tutorialized some useful information about its internal specifics a little bit better. Which, i'm well aware, is certainly easier said than done considering the complexity of rule interactions. e: actually i just checked and the game's logic is all nicely readable in the lua files so that's easy enough to reference  Hempuli posted:they could definitely be adjusted if it turns out that they're too obtuse. RoadCrewWorker fucked around with this message at 10:37 on Apr 11, 2019 |
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Apr 11, 2019 10:17
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Hempuli posted:The underlying logic is that since I think the logic would be fine if the mechanic was demonstrated in an earlier puzzle, which I don't think it is? Also, level editor when
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Apr 11, 2019 12:20
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"By manipulating the rules, you can change how the game works"  code: ]
RoadCrewWorker fucked around with this message at 13:18 on Apr 11, 2019 |
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Apr 11, 2019 13:12
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Hempuli posted:That's a shame to hear. Not "early" I suppose but the revised "A Way Out?" makes no sense. YOU are PUSH and attempt to move against an opposing SHIFT object. A MOVE object is also moving in the same direction as you. No matter what order these three operations are in they should not result you in advancing two spaces in one step, since they don't do so out in the open without the SHIFT object.
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Apr 11, 2019 13:17
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Tonfa posted:Not "early" I suppose but the revised "A Way Out?" makes no sense. YOU are PUSH and attempt to move against an opposing SHIFT object. A MOVE object is also moving in the same direction as you. No matter what order these three operations are in they should not result you in advancing two spaces in one step, since they don't do so out in the open without the SHIFT object. That's definitely not the intended approach; I think I have an idea on how to adjust the level to help with that. As a general rule, if a behaviour doesn't make sense even afterwards it's plausible to suppose that it's a bug even if there ended up being an explanation what's going on (and even if that was the case, the explanation might not be very good, haha.) I think I understand what's going on there: Assuming Baba and the Move object are overlapping - You happens first, so Baba moves onto the Belt. Move happens next, so the object pushes Baba off the Belt. Shift happens last, but Baba's no longer on the Belt and thus only the Move object gets Shifted. Again, technically consistent within the underlying logic (and as a result hard to change), but not something you'd ever want to require a player to know to solve a puzzle. Hempuli fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Apr 11, 2019 |
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Apr 11, 2019 17:06
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Okay, so, like, what am I still missing. I know I’m missing something. 195 seeds, 11 blooms (10 map areas and ABC), 3 orbs. No levels showing uncleared in any area I can reach. I’ve heard there are over 200 seeds, so I’ve obviously not found all the levels. I’m very suspicious that Depths hasn’t bloomed yet. Also ???, but I don’t know where that bloom would even show up. I always thought ??? was the Meta area people talk about but now I suspect it’s a whole other area that I haven’t found. Also I’m convinced there’s a level in the Flag in Depths but gently caress if I can get that text to line up.
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Apr 11, 2019 20:50
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Fedule posted:Okay, so, like, what am I still missing. I know I’m missing something. It's that last thing. Don't give up! Also I suspect you missed a level in ???. All the blooms for the secret areas show up on the main world map, since their shortcuts appear there.
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Apr 11, 2019 20:57
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Hempuli posted:That's definitely not the intended approach; I think I have an idea on how to adjust the level to help with that. As a general rule, if a behaviour doesn't make sense even afterwards it's plausible to suppose that it's a bug even if there ended up being an explanation what's going on (and even if that was the case, the explanation might not be very good, haha.) Ah, gotcha. Back to being mystified at the new intended solution then.  I was holding down the move button and failed to notice the Move object had overlapped Baba, that is sensible within the game logic.
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Apr 11, 2019 21:45
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McFrugal posted:It's that last thing. Don't give up! Also I suspect you missed a level in ???. All the blooms for the secret areas show up on the main world map, since their shortcuts appear there. Well, I’ve cleared ??? 1-12 and extras 1-4 and there sure doesn’t seem to be anything else going on there. Obviously I managed to turn the one stage into Baba but no other level fuckery seems both possible and purposeful. I’ll keep poking Depths though. E: well okay I found the missing level and I thoroughly agree with its title what is the justification for this level existing Fedule fucked around with this message at 21:57 on Apr 11, 2019 |
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Apr 11, 2019 21:52
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Hello I just cleared skull house What the gently caress.
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Apr 11, 2019 21:53
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Okay how is ??? still not clear
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Apr 11, 2019 22:27
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Hempuli posted:I removed the level (after 1.0.3 hit, though) due to that. The underlying logic is that since Open and Shut can interact even if one of them is Stop, the interaction must happen before they occupy the same space, kinda like how Push works. Therefore if a Key is Push And Open, and a Door is Shut And Stop, pushing the Key against the Door makes whatever results of the Key disappearing happen one tile away from the door. As I discussed earlier, it's one of those cases where the logic makes internal sense and in this case could technically be figured out to an extent, but is still obscure and cornercasey - enough so that despite initially liking the level a lot I haven't felt that good about it lately. I just reached and cleared Secure Cottage (on 1.0.3) and I liked this level. I figured out the trick very quickly and it taught me a neat quirk of how the rules work. I don't see myself why this level would be controversial because it doesn't have a bunch of red herrings or distractions, the level is obviously possible, and so if you accept that much then it's just a matter of determining "something must be off here" and working at it from there.
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Apr 11, 2019 22:34
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Fedule posted:Okay how is ??? still not clear Eh, you might have to come back later come to think of it.
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Apr 11, 2019 23:47
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Fedule posted:Okay how is ??? still not clear did you get the BONUS, i think that counts as a level too you might not be able to do it yet
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Apr 12, 2019 00:43
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I mean, I got an Orb, which apparently is Bonus?
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Apr 12, 2019 00:51
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I just found meta after solving endless corridor. Still haven't bloomed Depths or ??? which is kind of surprising. I thought I was maybe down to the last couple puzzles but NOPE somehow it still keeps going.
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Apr 12, 2019 04:16
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I made it to the second zone. One of the levels gave me the choice of turning myself into two keys or two flags, and by god that's what I want out of a puzzle game. Both solutions would have worked equally well. That's some serious player agency.
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Apr 12, 2019 07:26
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I'm still missing something in Meta. There's no flower blooming around it on the world map. I got the 15 levels, the two extras up top, and the orb in the yellow flower, but I suspect there's still an Extra-3 somewhere? Because the next area has a level marked with 4 dots. Or did I just miss a win condition on a numbered level somewhere?
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Apr 12, 2019 11:16
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Asimov posted:I made it to the second zone. One of the levels gave me the choice of turning myself into two keys or two flags, and by god that's what I want out of a puzzle game. Both solutions would have worked equally well. That's some serious player agency. It's amazing that the type of puzzle constantly changes as well. Are you dealing with one where you need to rejigger all the rules? Are you dealing with one where they want you to make clever use of the very few tools they give you? Or maybe you're dealing with a psychological illusion that makes the puzzle look impossible despite the fact that it is not. And I'm sure there are quite a few more archetypes that I just haven't ran into yet.
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Apr 12, 2019 13:52
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Is there ever a list of what rules are implicit, e.g. text is push?
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Apr 12, 2019 17:28
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gonadic io posted:Is there ever a list of what rules are implicit, e.g. text is push? No, but that’s the only implicit rule, unless you’re also referring to OOP stuff.
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Apr 12, 2019 18:12
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I guess Text Is Word is technically an implicit rule, but that might be splitting hairs.
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Apr 12, 2019 18:27
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Pigbuster posted:No, but that’s the only implicit rule, unless you’re also referring to OOP stuff. I don't think that's quite true. I'm at the point-and-click adventure game mode of "Mash X against Y for all X and Y in the hopes that something happens" for Avalanche, and after making "not BABA is FALL", it looks like "TEXT is not FALL" unless explicitly specified, like in...Heavy Words I think it was?
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Apr 12, 2019 18:29
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I think Text is excluded from things like All and Not A.
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Apr 12, 2019 18:36
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Argue posted:I'm still missing something in Meta. There's no flower blooming around it on the world map. I got the 15 levels, the two extras up top, and the orb in the yellow flower, but I suspect there's still an Extra-3 somewhere? Because the next area has a level marked with 4 dots. Or did I just miss a win condition on a numbered level somewhere? There's a secret level.
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Apr 12, 2019 19:21
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Paul.Power posted:I think Text is excluded from things like All and Not A. this is correct, otherwise [INSERT NOUN HERE] IS ALL would also make a bunch of words appear
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Apr 12, 2019 21:00
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Paul.Power posted:I guess Text Is Word is technically an implicit rule, but that might be splitting hairs. I suspect this isn’t actually true, because that would mean all text would be TEXT in addition to whatever that text spells out. TEXT is WORD never actually comes up so that’s just theorizing, though. E: That sounds like a silly-enough interaction that it deserves a puzzle, tbh. Pigbuster fucked around with this message at 22:00 on Apr 12, 2019 |
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Apr 12, 2019 21:58
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McFrugal posted:There's a secret level. That's what I thought but at this point I'd appreciate some hints because I've just been loving around the map for an hour and revisiting every level.
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Apr 12, 2019 23:12
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| # ? Jun 2, 2024 12:47 |
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Which solution makes you angrier; Skull House or Avalanche? For me it was a close call but Skull House made me actually swear out loud in an empty room and Avalanche merely made me audibly huff.
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Apr 12, 2019 23:16
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