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Kai Tave posted:It isn't even a fire of any kind, analogous or otherwise. It's literally just people saying "Luke Crane is a pretentious blowhard whose magnum opus uses a bunch of weird jargon to describe perfectly bog standard concepts" and if this was said about any other RPG designer or any other game it would barely even be worth arguing about but somehow saying this about Luke Crane is like firing off the starter pistol at a Dumb Takes triathlon.
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Apr 13, 2019 10:11
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Zereth posted:It's an analogy. "Worse thing does not mean bad thing is not bad". Right, I'm just saying even in the realm of "person did something dumb and/or bad" that frequently crops up when dealing with RPG designers, nobody's really accusing Crane of anything more onerous than being up his own rear end. It's entirely correct that Luke Crane hasn't, to the best of my knowledge, been a huge sex creep or a con artist or anything, and nobody is treating him like he has either, which makes the regularly scheduled rush to be the one to deliver the spiciest take in his defense so baffling.
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Apr 13, 2019 10:16
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I have no doubt we'd all Have Opinions regardless, but I'm pretty sure it's so much of a thing as it is because he didn't just say "sorry man I'm committed to the bit" or even say nothing when he kicked the backer out, but went to his buddies to be all "Heh, I sure showed that idiot." And he didn't even do it in Wizard Voice.
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Apr 13, 2019 10:18
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I've just read this entire thread and now desperately want to refund Strike.
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Apr 13, 2019 10:26
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Jimbozig posted:He doesn't want it to be like that. He doesn't want to be the server who explains the specials and answers any question you may have about the food or its preparation. I think he wants it to be more like a meal in his house where you chip in for the food bill. If you come to a meal in my house and start asking the kinds of questions you would ask at a restaurant with a "customer is always right" attitude, I might reply "hey, maybe you'd prefer to be at a restaurant right now." If you want something he's not selling, then go find someone who is selling what you want.
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Apr 13, 2019 10:28
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The whole shade thing reminds me of the telephone exchange name system they used to use. You see them mentioned a lot in old movies. For some reason people felt that Pennsylvania 6-5000 was better than 736-5000. It seems unnecessary to me, but some people must have liked it.
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Apr 13, 2019 11:24
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Man I can't believe some people won't accept the fact that some guy is being an rear end in a top hat on purpose as a valid reason as to why the guy isn't an rear end in a top hat.
Dreqqus fucked around with this message at 12:25 on Apr 13, 2019 |
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Apr 13, 2019 12:22
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Son of a Vondruke! posted:The whole shade thing reminds me of the telephone exchange name system they used to use. You see them mentioned a lot in old movies. For some reason people felt that Pennsylvania 6-5000 was better than 736-5000. It seems unnecessary to me, but some people must have liked it. Remembering a word and five digits is simpler than remembering seven digits. Manual switchboards were still in use at the time, and "Pennsylvania" is less easy to mishear than "seven three". LatwPIAT fucked around with this message at 12:59 on Apr 13, 2019 |
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Apr 13, 2019 12:46
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The odd thing is Burning Wheel includes some excellent tips on roleplaying and GM’ing. I’ve never played BW, I never got over what I consider some cumbersome rules, but the advice in the book has stayed with me through every campaign I’ve run since reading it. Like ‘Do not introduce any item into the game that you are not ready to see your players get their hands on’.
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Apr 13, 2019 12:54
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Comrade Koba posted:I know gently caress-all about Luke Crane, but this thread has convinced me to imagine him as the secret love child of Gary Gygax and Ed Greenwood, who responds to any questions by swiftly putting on a pointy hat and expounding at length on his intricate knowledge of secrets most arcane. DARE YOU ENTER HIS MAGICAL REALM? Right. And this impression you have is completely false. Which is why I am frustrated with the bullshit in this thread. It's just a bunch of ridiculous exaggeration. For instance, comparing politely refunding someone who is dragging you on twitter to bodily hurling someone from a restaurant for asking questions. They were refunded for stirring poo poo on Twitter, not for asking questions. Jimbozig fucked around with this message at 13:28 on Apr 13, 2019 |
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Apr 13, 2019 13:23
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Jimbozig posted:Right. And this impression you have is completely false. Which is why I am frustrated with the bullshit in this thread. It's just a bunch of ridiculous exaggeration. He literally kicked someone off his kickstarter because they asked if they could get a clear answer rather than mystic ponderings. The impression is accurate.
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Apr 13, 2019 13:25
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Look, I've had enough of this stupid argument. If anyone on the fence wants to know more about any of Luke Crane's games, try sending him a message and asking. You can find him on his forums if his email address isn't still floating around. I'm pretty sure he won't be an rear end in a top hat to you. I'm pretty sure he'll be totally chill if he has time to reply. I could be wrong, but it's not like it'll cost you anything to find out.
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Apr 13, 2019 13:36
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You're not going to get the chance to give the guy a blowjob, man. Quit tripping over yourself to defend him so hard.
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Apr 13, 2019 13:43
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For a more complete disclosure, here's what happened regarding the kickstarter. Specifically, this was the pissy response Crane posted on Kickstarter when questioned about how the delivery was progressing.quote:Silence.
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Apr 13, 2019 13:47
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what a dweeb
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Apr 13, 2019 13:55
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"Ugh, how dare people ask me if I'm going to deliver my product they gave me money for! Ingrates!"
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Apr 13, 2019 13:57
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I will say this: I thought Luke Crane's wizard persona was very annoying, but I had enough faith in the product that I backed anyway, and I was pretty satisfied with the end result, content-wise. And when there turned out to be errors in the printing process that meant that the ink on the cover was wearing out a bit faster than normal, he sent me (and all other backers who had this problem) a new, corrected copy free of charge - and the correspondence surrounding this issue was all written in plain english. That earned a lot of good will from me, I have to say.
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Apr 13, 2019 13:57
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:I haven't even read this book I have no horse in this but I figured this part out - it's part of a visual language the book uses repeatedly in multiple contexts and it helps to highlight that with its own term so you know what you're looking at when you see it later. A bit of upfront explanation and terminology means you aren't confused when it's used in an entirely new context later in the book. That was my initial assumption, too. The numbers will be printed in black, grey, or white and the shade of the number also communicates what tier it's on. Clever design, right? Except no. He just writes B, W, or G next to a number and it's on you to remember why he's doing that. When you actually encounter shades in the book, they're in charts and 100% unrelated to Shades. It's functionally a subscript 1 or 2, but written in front of the number, and also as a letter that corresponds to a shade.
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Apr 13, 2019 14:00
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Piell posted:For a more complete disclosure, here's what happened regarding the kickstarter. Specifically, this was the pissy response Crane posted on Kickstarter when questioned about how the delivery was progressing. I participated in this ks as well, and the thing that I remember the most is that instead of posting an update saying "don't forget to respond to your backer surveys or we can't send you a book," he wrote something to the effect of "SIGN THY NAME IN THE BOOK OF BLACK OR NO IMP SHALL DISPATCHÉD TO THY PORTAL BE". What this led to was like 300 backers all just responding to that update with their names. No idea how many of them wound up not getting their books. Based on a skim of the comments on the KS, it's at least one. ---- EDIT TO ADD Luke Crane, BWC Kickstarter posted:The book is closed. No signatures shall it further accept. Were you too late to sign, then bereft you shall be for no imp shall be dispatched to your domicile bearing package precious. This is what he said after the deadline closed. I would mainly like to point out that a "guarantee" absolutely was loving "proffered in our exchange". Viz.: Kickstarter TOS posted:By backing or creating a fundraising campaign on Kickstarter, you agree to be bound by this entire Agreement, including the following terms: [...] Project Creators are required to fulfill all rewards of their successful fundraising campaigns or refund any Backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. This is at best obtuse and at worst an attempt to bully people into letting themselves get swindled. ------ The guy is a stupid rear end in a top hat, is what it comes down to. It is horrible behavior to create a situation where people miss out on receiving something that they paid for because they can't interpret your lovely riddles. That said, the game is fine. I didn't experience any difficulty in understanding what the rules were while reading them in context in the book, and I have a pretty short attention span for rulebooks. The big fight/argument resolution mechanics produce kind of an odd play experience. It's okay. In all, I'm not going to buy a BW book again, but if I could figure out a way to shoplift a copy without hurting an innocent retailer, I would probably get it. EDIT 2: Oh, scrolling through the comments on that KS there's some real gold. So, like, Arthur B's comments are still there (just hidden b/c he "cancelled his pledge" (ha) and you have to click through to see them. So here's the sort of inflammatory poo poo Arthur was saying previous to getting his pledge cancelled: Arthur B posted:I guess I don't get why you would support the project in the first place if you hate the way it is run and don't care much for the author. Arthur B posted:@Zanshi: I think our overlord has made it quite clear that he would rather have 200 backers who enjoy and buy into the particular style this Kickstarter has been conducted in than 2000 who'd only be wooed with plainer language. How dare he talk about Luke that way, right? some FUCKING LIAR fucked around with this message at 14:25 on Apr 13, 2019 |
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Apr 13, 2019 14:00
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Jimbozig posted:I could be wrong, but it's not like it'll cost you anything to find out. True enough, reading this very thread made me realize Luke Crane is a shitlord which in turn means I didn't have to buy
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Apr 13, 2019 14:04
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Burning Wheel has some fantastic GMing advice married to a mess of a ruleset.
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Apr 13, 2019 15:49
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Is all this why someone mailed me a huge collection of Burning Wheel? Because the writer was a poop man? Good to know. I've got all this stuff. Some sort of Sci-Fi offshoot too.
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Apr 13, 2019 15:52
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Hey, there was an Alas Vegas update today too. Apparently it’s being translated and as part of it they’re printing the custom Tarot deck that the game maybe-once-assumes that you have. I’ve never heard any claim that KS sellers are obliged to extract delivery information at gunpoint in order to fulfill every pledge. That would open a huge venue for trolling if true.
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Apr 13, 2019 16:12
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Humbug Scoolbus posted:Burning Wheel has some fantastic GMing advice married to a mess of a ruleset. Knowing that jimbozig idolizes Burning Wheel and it's full of poo poo like that makes the odd inhuman cant of Strike make a lot more sense. It's not written for normal people, it's written for the Luke Crane cult! Now I get it!
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Apr 13, 2019 16:18
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hyphz posted:Hey, there was an Alas Vegas update today too. Apparently it’s being translated and as part of it they’re printing the custom Tarot deck that the game maybe-once-assumes that you have. KS sellers are maybe obliged to say "please remember to update your address so we can ship the book to you" instead of FULGRIMUNOUS FOOTHSOMES TO THE ICON OF HERMES WHICH I BESET YE TO INSCRIBE THE BLESSING OF YOUR MOTHER'S WHIMSY 'PON, LEST YE BE BEREFT IN THE CHOOSING, though. The second one is trying to screw people out of their paid for products, even if that's just a side effect of your "wacky" persona.
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Apr 13, 2019 16:22
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Seems like I'm a subhuman for liking to GM that game then. Oh well.
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Apr 13, 2019 16:22
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Plutonis posted:Seems like I'm a subhuman for liking to GM that game then. Oh well. There's a difference between 'I like this game even though the creator is kind of dick' and 'this guy isn't a dick because I like his game'.
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Apr 13, 2019 16:28
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Arivia posted:Knowing that jimbozig idolizes Burning Wheel and it's full of poo poo like that makes the odd inhuman cant of Strike make a lot more sense. It's not written for normal people, it's written for the Luke Crane cult! Now I get it! I couldn’t understand anything of Burning Empires, but Strike was very clear.
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Apr 13, 2019 16:41
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Dreqqus posted:There's a difference between 'I like this game even though the creator is kind of dick' and 'this guy isn't a dick because I like his game'. Yeah and the first one is and has been my position this entire thread. I defended criticism of him several times yesterday. He has at times been kind of a dick. Who in this thread has never been a bit rude or grumpy or kind of a dick? I know I have! I know several of you have just last night in this very thread! So what? People have come in posting that the impression they get from reading this thread is that he is 100% piss whizzard rear end in a top hat all the time. Other posters have said that impression is accurate. It is not. That's all I wanted people to know. You want proof? Go try to talk to the man like a human being. If he comes at you with incomprehensible wizard speak, I'll admit I was wrong. I have messaged him and he was fine to me, with nary a hint of wizard poo poo. That's my evidence. Go gather your own. Or don't and just keep spouting ignorance on some forums and see what good it does anybody.If you aren't willing to put your assertions to the test, then maybe let's just agree to disagree.
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Apr 13, 2019 17:02
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Dreqqus posted:There's a difference between 'I like this game even though the creator is kind of dick' and 'this guy isn't a dick because I like his game'. I'm talking about Strike, the game made for abnormal people.
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Apr 13, 2019 17:07
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Arivia posted:Knowing that jimbozig idolizes Burning Wheel and it's full of poo poo like that makes the odd inhuman cant of Strike make a lot more sense. It's not written for normal people, it's written for the Luke Crane cult! Now I get it! Jimbozig's meltdown is pretty dumb but I don't think this is the time for you to litigate your insane hatred for Strike for the billionth time.
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Apr 13, 2019 17:27
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The Deleter posted:Jimbozig's meltdown is pretty dumb but I don't think this is the time for you to litigate your insane hatred for Strike for the billionth time. No, I'm being honest. Jimbozig has been pretty open both here and elsewhere about Burning Wheel being an inspiration for his work on Strike. Knowing that crazy wizard man is a big influence goes a long way towards explaining why I didn't like Strike and why the language read so terribly to me.
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Apr 13, 2019 17:34
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Kai Tave posted:It isn't even a fire of any kind, analogous or otherwise. It's literally just people saying "Luke Crane is a pretentious blowhard whose magnum opus uses a bunch of weird jargon to describe perfectly bog standard concepts" and if this was said about any other RPG designer or any other game it would barely even be worth arguing about but somehow saying this about Luke Crane is like firing off the starter pistol at a Dumb Takes triathlon. I mean, case in point, this whole thing started with some people saying Jenna Moran's writing style was hard to follow and other people saying Fragged Empire's writing style was hard to follow, but those didn't get half the passionate defenses that Luke Crane is getting.
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Apr 13, 2019 17:35
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For the record I can see the point of anyone that thinks Ed Greenwood is hard to read and meandering.
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Apr 13, 2019 17:36
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Arivia posted:No, I'm being honest. Jimbozig has been pretty open both here and elsewhere about Burning Wheel being an inspiration for his work on Strike. Knowing that crazy wizard man is a big influence goes a long way towards explaining why I didn't like Strike and why the language read so terribly to me. Alright, sorry I didn't take your post in good faith. I struggled a little with Strike too but I mostly didn't play it because Panic at the Dojo does what I want better.
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Apr 13, 2019 17:38
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Lynx Winters posted:I mean, case in point, this whole thing started with some people saying Jenna Moran's writing style was hard to follow and other people saying Fragged Empire's writing style was hard to follow, but those didn't get half the passionate defenses that Luke Crane is getting. Yeah, Moran's work is frequently difficult to follow and I wholeheartedly recommend play guides for it. I do think her writing style is charming, it's just not very useful.
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Apr 13, 2019 17:40
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In other fire-related news, Mike Mearls still hasn't tweeted two months after his lovely Zak S response.
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Apr 13, 2019 17:41
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Plutonis posted:I'm talking about Strike, the game made for abnormal people. Oh sorry I misunderstood your post. Strike seemed fine.
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Apr 13, 2019 18:20
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I'll keep this Hot Take Machine going by saying that BW actually has a lot of pretty great basic design principles, like the aforementioned GM advice, that had not at all permeated the industry in the time the game initially came out and it deserves some credit for doing that even if you hate Shade or whatever. Also physically the book is just very nice. It's attractively bound, well-laid out, the art is mostly good, and the index is actually incredibly well built and robust. When I look at the book, content aside, I see a product I wish more designers would emulate and I literally preordered it on this basis alone.
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Apr 13, 2019 19:38
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Crane is basically a giant bookmaking nerd, yeah. It's an extremely well-made book.
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Apr 13, 2019 19:55
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