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icantfindaname posted:But you can’t actually make the plane fly the same as previous planes, because it’s a physically different design/the engines are in a different place. The MAX seems to have a tendency to veer upwards which the older/original 737 did not have, and just having the MCAS autopilot steer the plane’s nose down and hoping nobody notices isn’t the same thing as flying the same as the old design. Can you actually fly the plane safely without the MCAS stuff? Is the veering upwards just sort of a minor annoyance pilots could live with or is it a bigger deal than that? Would the plane pass the normal safety regulations if they weren’t grandfathering it in under the original 737 registration? I don’t think that 737 MAX’s stall characteristics are so dangerous that they wouldn’t be allowed in a new aircraft (MCAS or no). They are merely too dangerous for pilots accustomed to how 737s have flown for the past fifty years.
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Apr 14, 2019 01:35
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hobbesmaster posted:It would be at this point. Seems to me most of their options are worse.
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Apr 14, 2019 01:58
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icantfindaname posted:So is the 737 max a fundamentally unsafe design? The probably lovely NYT article and other stuff said the engine placement caused the thing the autopilot was supposed to hide/correct for in the first place? That sort of seems unfixable The problem isn't simply engineering a fix for the sofware behavior that noses the plane uncontrollably into the ground with a single point of failure. The problem is that MCAS is so obviously a safety critical system while being designated and designed otherwise that it is impossible to have confidence in Boeing's internal controls and methodology. What else might we not yet know about?
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Apr 14, 2019 02:26
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a patagonian cavy posted:MCAS is designed to make a 737 MAX fly like previous generation 737s. It just has... extremely bad failure modes. Well by taking that design parameter literally - MCAS made the MAX fly like United 585 and USAir 427 
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Apr 14, 2019 02:51
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shame on an IGA posted:The problem isn't simply engineering a fix for the sofware behavior that noses the plane uncontrollably into the ground with a single point of failure. The problem is that MCAS is so obviously a safety critical system while being designated and designed otherwise that it is impossible to have confidence in Boeing's internal controls and methodology. What else might we not yet know about? Boeing's entire quality system is a huge loving mess right now (because quality is a cost center!) and they're scrambling so hard to try and get it cleaned up after the fact There is so much poo poo that a properly funded and authorized FAA would throw a fit over
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Apr 14, 2019 02:58
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rscott posted:Boeing's entire quality system is a huge loving mess right now (because quality is a cost center!) and they're scrambling so hard to try and get it cleaned up after the fact Southwest, American and United are throwing a fit right now which may actually help fix things.
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Apr 14, 2019 03:05
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hobbesmaster posted:Southwest, American and United are throwing a fit right now which may actually help fix things. I don't want to get too specific (because honestly the potential liability is enormous) but let me just say that the lack of oversight and vetting of systems isn't limited to just the 737 and Boeing itself Like honestly the MCAS thing reminds me of Trump getting elected, it's a big WTF moment that everyone can point to but the rot in the system extends a lot further and started a long time ago, and the only thing that is really keeping it going is a lot of people trying to do the best that they can and operate in good faith that things are working the way that they're supposed to
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Apr 14, 2019 03:22
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Can we not discuss trump in the airplane thread?
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Apr 14, 2019 04:41
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rscott posted:I don't want to get too specific (because honestly the potential liability is enormous) but let me just say that the lack of oversight and vetting of systems isn't limited to just the 737 and Boeing itself That is exactly what I feared. The plane is cooked, no reasonable person will step into one given its problems. Virgin Australia may well demand its money back.
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Apr 14, 2019 04:41
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hobbesmaster posted:Southwest, American and United are throwing a fit right now which may actually help fix things. To be fair, Southwest has never had a problem with flying too slowly.
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Apr 14, 2019 05:13
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revmoo posted:Can we not discuss trump in the airplane thread? It's not really discussion. It's a totally intelligible analogy that anyone without brain worms can understand and relate to.
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Apr 14, 2019 06:13
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ewe2 posted:That is exactly what I feared. The plane is cooked, no reasonable person will step into one given its problems. Virgin Australia may well demand its money back. That’s not what he said.
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Apr 14, 2019 06:34
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azflyboy posted:To be fair, Southwest has never had a problem with flying too slowly. Usually their problem is going too fast on the ground. 
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Apr 14, 2019 06:58
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ewe2 posted:That is exactly what I feared. The plane is cooked, no reasonable person will step into one given its problems. Virgin Australia may well demand its money back. I can't bank on how people will react but they'll be able to fix the plane. It might require recertifying the pilots on a new type. It's not inherently flawed, IMO. A lot of stupid stuff happening for sure of course.
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Apr 14, 2019 07:44
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Anyone have any idea whats going on in Dallas right now? Wife said her international flight was delayed 2 days due to hail damage. Seems like a lot of planes go hit during the storm.
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Apr 14, 2019 07:58
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This seems thread-appropriate.
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Apr 14, 2019 09:32
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meltie posted:This seems thread-appropriate. An Italian airline advertising a car known for being a badly assembled piece of poo poo, hmm that fills me with confidence.
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Apr 14, 2019 10:42
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Aargh posted:An Italian airline advertising a car known for being a badly assembled piece of poo poo, hmm that fills me with confidence. It's based on a Fiat platform and assembled in Italy, and while that changes absolutely no part of your post, it helps explain why they did it.
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Apr 14, 2019 13:39
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GlassEye-Boy posted:Anyone have any idea whats going on in Dallas right now? Wife said her international flight was delayed 2 days due to hail damage. Seems like a lot of planes go hit during the storm. It rained all day, and there was some hail, it’s spring 
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Apr 14, 2019 13:50
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Just in case anyone's interested. I had my 2nd flight today & if I sign up for the course it'll count towards my hours. I found the 'pants making GBS threads' scary had diminished a lot & I had time to get into things & really enjoy it. Even the landing was awesome. It was cool as! I'm definitely signing up for my license
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Apr 14, 2019 17:38
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Trainee PornStar posted:Just in case anyone's interested. Do well, Trainee
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Apr 14, 2019 18:25
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Midjack posted:Do well, Trainee Mods! pretty please! rename me to this
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Apr 14, 2019 19:06
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rscott posted:Boeing's entire quality system is a huge loving mess right now (because quality is a cost center!) and they're scrambling so hard to try and get it cleaned up after the fact So that explains why Boeing has radically slowed the return to flight... There are enough skeletons in the 737 closet that Boeing needs to be careful.
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Apr 14, 2019 19:20
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Sperglord posted:So that explains why Boeing has radically slowed the return to flight... There are enough skeletons in the 737 closet that Boeing needs to be careful. *hides non redundant rudder power control unit*
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Apr 14, 2019 19:31
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rscott posted:Boeing's entire quality system is a huge loving mess right now (because quality is a cost center!) and they're scrambling so hard to try and get it cleaned up after the fact How many KC-46s have been delivered with tools loose in the frame now?
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Apr 14, 2019 20:16
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I guess one of my questions is without MCAS, I assume the MAX would be fine to fly, but it just would require more extensive pilot training/re certification, which is a big cost driver for airlines and therefore something they preferred to avoid. Is that true? Could you (in theory, not in a regulatory environment or w/e) just disable MCAS and provide type training that would adequately cover the differences in handling?
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Apr 14, 2019 20:47
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I haven't seen this much posting about the problems with MCAS since the lat time debate about the existence of the Marine fixed-wing fleet came up. For real, that acronym throws me through a loop every time. It stands for Marine Corps Air Station in my mind.
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Apr 14, 2019 21:20
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Would it be fair to blame the Marine Corps for the 737 Max's problems? They seem to ruin every other plane.
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Apr 15, 2019 00:10
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Are there pictures or diagrams anywhere that show the difference in engine placement between a MAX and other 737s?
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Apr 15, 2019 00:42
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icantfindaname posted:But you can’t actually make the plane fly the same as previous planes, because it’s a physically different design/the engines are in a different place. The MAX seems to have a tendency to veer upwards which the older/original 737 did not have, and just having the MCAS autopilot steer the plane’s nose down and hoping nobody notices isn’t the same thing as flying the same as the old design. Can you actually fly the plane safely without the MCAS stuff? Is the veering upwards just sort of a minor annoyance pilots could live with or is it a bigger deal than that? Would the plane pass the normal safety regulations if they weren’t grandfathering it in under the original 737 registration? You can fly the plane safely. It just handles like a different aircraft, which it is. The pitch moment with throttle is a reasonable thing planes do. It'd be unremarkable if Boeing hadn't tried to hide it.
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Apr 15, 2019 00:45
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100 300  700  Max 800  It’s like the engines are trying to get away from the wing. As the engine moves forward, the thrust creates a stronger pitch up moment. This can cause a stall at low air speeds or under certain conditions at cruise.
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Apr 15, 2019 00:54
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the 737-100 (and 200) with the JT8 just looks so right. I posit the 200 looks better because the 100 is too stubby.
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Apr 15, 2019 01:05
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I still say bring back the 727 without the center engine and giant leap engines mounted to the sides for some kind of mad dog-esque Boeing.
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Apr 15, 2019 01:11
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Here's an angle of the Stratolaunch flight I'd not seen yet - really gives a great idea of the size of the thing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hku8TH9NKfw
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Apr 15, 2019 01:17
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e.pilot posted:I still say bring back the 727 without the center engine and giant leap engines mounted to the sides for some kind of mad dog-esque Boeing. But bring back the JATO hardpoints.
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Apr 15, 2019 01:19
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For the Stratolaunch was the GE9X just too new to use? Probably would require a major rebuild, perhaps for stratolaunch v2.
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Apr 15, 2019 01:33
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KYOON GRIFFEY JR posted:the 737-100 (and 200) with the JT8 just looks so right. I posit the 200 looks better because the 100 is too stubby. The 100 is just so adorable.
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Apr 15, 2019 01:41
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priznat posted:For the Stratolaunch was the GE9X just too new to use? Probably would require a major rebuild, perhaps for stratolaunch v2. My guess is they stayed with PW4056s because they're way easier to source and maintain. The Stratolaunch also doesn't need to go far - it just needs to get to launch altitude. I'm sure the GE9X would get it there quicker and cheaper, until you factor in the delivery cost of a new core.
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Apr 15, 2019 01:48
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If the 737 MAX needs a new type rating is that a big deal-breaker for most of their customers? Southwest in particular would have a problem with it but what about the other airlines?
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Apr 15, 2019 01:58
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I would blow Dane Cook posted:Would it be fair to blame the Marine Corps for the 737 Max's problems? They seem to ruin every other plane. It takes off vertically and then lands vertically, they got what they want!
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Apr 15, 2019 02:16
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