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Rent-A-Cop posted:I would suggest familiarizing yourself with the current system and its failures (they are many and varied) so you can agitate for something more concrete than "Do better!". Because politicians are dumb as poo poo, and will do whatever lobbyists tell them if all you're asking them for is "something about gun, specifics TBD by the NRA."  Maybe we should elect better politicians And no, "do better!" is a perfectly fine level of agitation against this terrible status quo, not everyone has to be a subject expert to advocate for change, that's a completely ridiculous burden of proof. I'm not doing homework for you. e: vvv lol no gently caress off right out of here with this "educate yourself" bs  I've made my point, you just disagree with it and are using rhetorical trickery to "win the argument" which I find to be pretty distasteful when the subject is shooting deaths. WampaLord fucked around with this message at 15:00 on Apr 15, 2019 |
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Apr 15, 2019 14:55
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WampaLord posted:
Everyone posting here is onboard for "do better" Educate yourself in the things you care about or people will just assume you don't really care.
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Apr 15, 2019 14:58
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WampaLord posted:e: vvv lol no gently caress off right out of here with this "educate yourself" bs Mea culpa.
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Apr 15, 2019 15:16
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Rent-A-Cop posted:You know what, that was lovely and I apologise. I should know better. There's plenty of room on the right side of the fight, and I shouldn't be making GBS threads on folks who aren't big nerds on my pet peeve. Hey, thank you. And I apologize for getting heated, but again, it is a literal life and death issue. I honestly don't know the perfect way to craft background check legislation and until there is an actual bill that we can discuss, we can really only discuss support for it in the abstract. Once there's an actual bill on the table, then there's an opportunity to discuss the finer details of what exactly needs to change, and I would love for us to be able to even get to that point.
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Apr 15, 2019 15:18
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Start with letting CDC track gun stuff and letting the ATF or whoever use computers in their record keeping.
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Apr 15, 2019 15:52
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Nevvy Z posted:Start with letting CDC track gun stuff and letting the ATF or whoever use computers in their record keeping. Roll the research and licensing divisions into Interior somewhere, and boot all the cops to the curb.
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Apr 15, 2019 15:56
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WampaLord posted:but for some reason instead of just implementing a background check law, they always demand a concession. What exactly is wrong with a concession if it gets a new and improved and functional law passed? As opposed to the alternative of it not getting passed? Principle?
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Apr 15, 2019 16:15
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KingFisher posted:1. To address the shooting homicide rate between young men in urban settings, make possession of an illegally acquire gun or the commission of a crime with an illegaly acquired gun a double life sentence. Guys my dog just started barking but I dont hear anything It's like he can hear some kind of whistle
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Apr 15, 2019 16:33
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Double life sentence fuckin lmao
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Apr 15, 2019 16:50
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Groovelord Neato posted:why can't we go the other way and enact strict control if we regain power? right now we have it in the opposite direction and in total opposition to the will of the people. How do you think people gained power in the past? What tools did they use?
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Apr 15, 2019 16:57
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BENGHAZI 2 posted:Double life sentence fuckin lmao Letting everyone currently locked up on a bullshit gun charge out of jail tomorrow with a pardon would probably reduce gun crime.
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Apr 15, 2019 16:58
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Shaocaholica posted:What exactly is wrong with a concession if it gets a new and improved and functional law passed? As opposed to the alternative of it not getting passed? Principle? What makes you think you're in any position to demand concessions?
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Apr 15, 2019 17:01
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WampaLord posted:What makes you think you're in any position to demand concessions? I’m not but the gun people are. You sound awfully like them in your conviction.
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Apr 15, 2019 17:22
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Shaocaholica posted:I’m not but the gun people are. You sound awfully like them in your conviction. Love to tsk tsk people for having beliefs
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Apr 15, 2019 17:26
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I tell gun people the same thing.
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Apr 15, 2019 17:30
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zapplez posted:How do you think people gained power in the past? What tools did they use? you win on other poo poo and then enact gun control. Shaocaholica posted:I tell gun people the same thing. it's ok to have strong convictions when you're correct.
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Apr 15, 2019 17:32
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Shaocaholica posted:I’m not but the gun people are. You sound awfully like them in your conviction. Yea but I'm on the side that wants no more school shootings, no more Sandy Hooks, no more tens of thousands of easily preventable shooting deaths and suicides per year. They just want to keep their rooty tooty point and shooty toys and keep defending them to an insane degree. They are objectively in the wrong. Look at gun laws in the rest of the first world and tell me ours are just fine with a straight face.
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Apr 15, 2019 17:36
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Concessions are dumb when absolutely no one involved has any reason to act in good faith. You make laws that work and then campaign on the fact that they worked.
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Apr 15, 2019 17:38
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^^^^ there’s the rub I guess.WampaLord posted:Yea but I'm on the side that wants no more school shootings, no more Sandy Hooks, no more tens of thousands of easily preventable shooting deaths and suicides per year. Ok so on principle then?
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Apr 15, 2019 17:44
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What's funny is despite how many times I've mentioned "melting all guns" I think some amount of gun ownership is perfectly fine. You should be able to use a gun to hunt, or to have fun target shooting at a range, but in my ideal world the guns would stay right there and not come back home with you.Shaocaholica posted:Ok so on principle then? It's a moral issue, trying to be beep boop robot logic about it is lunacy. Yes, on loving principle! They want to keep death shooting toys, they have literally no right to demand concessions.
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Apr 15, 2019 17:45
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WampaLord posted:What's funny is despite how many times I've mentioned "melting all guns" I think some amount of gun ownership is perfectly fine. You should be able to use a gun to hunt, or to have fun target shooting at a range, but in my ideal world the guns would stay right there and not come back home with you. I can work with that.
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Apr 15, 2019 17:46
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WampaLord posted:What's funny is despite how many times I've mentioned "melting all guns" I think some amount of gun ownership is perfectly fine. You should be able to use a gun to hunt, or to have fun target shooting at a range, but in my ideal world the guns would stay right there and not come back home with you. Subsidized safe storage gets you 90% of the way there with 10% the effort IMO.
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Apr 15, 2019 18:00
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Rent-A-Cop posted:So who's gonna hold on to my gun in the woods so I don't have to take it home and how much they gonna charge me? A taxpayer funded official who is there to assist hunters, kind of like a park ranger. The tax can come from gun sales. Win/win! E: vvv see, now you're thinking big! It would indeed be a hell of a jobs program. WampaLord fucked around with this message at 18:07 on Apr 15, 2019 |
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Apr 15, 2019 18:01
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WampaLord posted:A taxpayer funded official who is there to assist hunters, kind of like a park ranger. The tax can come from gun sales. Win/win! It'd be a decent jobs program though, hiring a million or so more game wardens.
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Apr 15, 2019 18:05
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Why not just let people check guns in and out of facilities that don't literally have to be in the woods. If you live in the rear end end of nowhere where no facilities are within reasonable distances then you can apply for a permit to keep them on your premises provided they are kept in accordance with some guidelines. Same permits would be available to anyone willing to go through the trouble. e: although some provision would have to be made for people who are qualified to keep them for actual self defense. Like the permits thing. Shaocaholica fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Apr 15, 2019 |
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Apr 15, 2019 18:14
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Shaocaholica posted:Why not just let people check guns in and out of facilities that don't literally have to be in the woods. If you live in the rear end end of nowhere where no facilities are within reasonable distances then you can apply for a permit to keep them on your premises provided they are kept in accordance with some guidelines. Same permits would be available to anyone willing to go through the trouble. That might be fine, this whole thing was a "in my ideal world" scenario, I'm perfectly willing to be pragmatic as long as we achieve the end result of less overall gun violence.
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Apr 15, 2019 18:21
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Shaocaholica posted:I tell gun people the same thing. Yeah, I know, you're a moron
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Apr 15, 2019 18:46
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I'm the reasonable adult who treats people actively agitating for less massacres and the people who are fighting them so they can keep their toys the same, why are you all so stupid
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Apr 15, 2019 18:46
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Shaocaholica posted:Why not just let people check guns in and out of facilities that don't literally have to be in the woods. If you live in the rear end end of nowhere where no facilities are within reasonable distances then you can apply for a permit to keep them on your premises provided they are kept in accordance with some guidelines. Same permits would be available to anyone willing to go through the trouble. I'd personally have no problem with these kind of restrictions, but the supreme court has said time and time again that gun ownership for self defense is a legal right and this would be thrown out so fast. Its too bad you won't find any politicians that would actually spend the big money to make more people not want to shoot each other.
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Apr 15, 2019 19:14
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we shall beat our swords into ploughshares.
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Apr 15, 2019 19:23
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Groovelord Neato posted:we shall beat our swords into ploughshares.
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Apr 15, 2019 19:42
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2A Flash Mobs
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Apr 15, 2019 22:57
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WampaLord posted:What's funny is despite how many times I've mentioned "melting all guns" I think some amount of gun ownership is perfectly fine. You should be able to use a gun to hunt, or to have fun target shooting at a range, but in my ideal world the guns would stay right there and not come back home with you. This is stricter than any European country I can think of. So good luck with that. Speaking of which. I'm absolutely convinced that if a wizard teleported all US guns to my country and switched our gun laws the US would still be significantly more violent and our rate would hardly change.
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Apr 16, 2019 10:46
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AlexanderCA posted:This is stricter than any European country I can think of. So good luck with that. Are you just completely passing over my "in my ideal world" phrasing to get this very cheap dunk in? I'm well aware it's stricter than any European country, but that shouldn't be a reason to not pursue it as a long term goal. quote:Speaking of which. I'm absolutely convinced that if a wizard teleported all US guns to my country and switched our gun laws the US would still be significantly more violent and our rate would hardly change.  well until you can link a study showing that Americans are uniquely violent cavepeople even without 300+ million guns floating around, and trust me, I welcome seeing it, this just seems like a super cynical way of shutting down the entire conversation. "Oh those Americans, they're gonna be violent no matter what you do, so might as well not do anything at all!"
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Apr 16, 2019 11:31
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2 out of 3 US homicides are by firearm. But your homicide rate is 10 times ours lol. Your problems are primarily societal, sorry. My guess is if you got rid of the drug war and got to boring European levels of economic inequality, hardly socialism, you would be not much more violent than Europe even with current gun laws. Most people simply don't turn to murder without a cause.
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Apr 16, 2019 11:51
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AlexanderCA posted:2 out of 3 US homicides are by firearm. But your homicide rate is 10 times ours lol. Your problems are primarily societal, sorry. My guess is if you got rid of the drug war and got to boring European levels of economic inequality, hardly socialism, you would be not much more violent than Europe even with current gun laws. Most people simply don't turn to murder without a cause. We can do that while still focusing on passing some form of gun control, too, and to act like we can only do one is stupid as hell. If you're gonna wait for European levels of economic inequality to happen in America, you're gonna be waiting a long loving time and during that time more and more people are gonna commit crimes with a gun that could have been prevented just by passing some relatively uncontroversial things like increased background checks. Ultimately your argument is this: 
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Apr 16, 2019 12:00
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I'm not opposed to gun control. You need to draw a semi arbitrary line somewhere between butter knives and nukes. But lol if you think background checks are going to make anything but a imperceptible difference in murder rates.
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Apr 16, 2019 12:06
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AlexanderCA posted:I'm not opposed to gun control. You need to draw a semi arbitrary line somewhere between butter knives and nukes. But lol if you think background checks are going to make anything but a imperceptible difference in murder rates. Well that's a very different argument than: AlexanderCA posted:Speaking of which. I'm absolutely convinced that if a wizard teleported all US guns to my country and switched our gun laws the US would still be significantly more violent and our rate would hardly change. Now you admit that it would make a difference, if only a small one. Here's the thing, though, even a very small difference in a country as big as ours translates into hundreds, if not thousands, of actual lives saved. You can't put a price on that. That's why every small step is still worth fighting for. e: vvv AlexanderCA posted:good luck with your crusade Thanks, jackass, you definitely don't come across as smug and above it all by calling it a "crusade" And you want to be proven right? You would prefer the death count to remain as high as it is? That's ghoulish as gently caress, you'd rather that more people die just so you can be right about an internet argument. WampaLord fucked around with this message at 12:21 on Apr 16, 2019 |
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Apr 16, 2019 12:07
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Imperceivable, and yes you can put a price on that. We do it with everything. But good luck with your crusade, I think you'll get your background checks eventually with demographic change and we'll see if it makes any difference. I doubt it.
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Apr 16, 2019 12:17
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WampaLord posted:
Americans aren't "uniquely violent" but obviously there is a large societal difference in the country compared to other developed nations. Its pretty obvious the majority of murders aren't out of simple weapons convenience but from a larger,broader need from wealth inequality and the drug war.
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Apr 16, 2019 12:37
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