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Darkrenown posted:It's not like there's a bit of code that says "go_slow = yes" that we can just delete. Have you not noticed the difference between 2.2. and 2.2.7? Work is ongoing and there's a fairly big change in progress, and you'll get that in a free patch, but designers and content designers changing how Megastructures unlock, what they do, and writing some events about finding artefacts doesn't detract from that effort. Most of the reason we're doing a small code-light DLC is so the rest of us have something to do while the code team focuses on optimisations.
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Apr 18, 2019 20:46
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Well it's good to hear that the optimizations are still a big priority and that the current DLC is working to compliment that. I really do feel that with megastructures, unique planets, planet modifiers etc there's just this timidity with Stellaris. Like all the work goes into writing the stuff, creating the art, implementing it into the UI. Team members put in a lot of work, talk about these conceptual leaps and what they represent for a species and how they would come about and which technologies would lead to them and how it would change life. And when it comes time to implement the mechanics it's like the most conservative of the old guard multi designers is in there, being like "OK!! 5% bonus... maybe 10% MAX" Ah yes, infinite energy in the form of a dyson sphere, capped to like a few hundred power gain after you step through a ton of different gates (time gates, tech gates, resource gates, construction gates) all to like, pay for a small fleet or run a few matter replicators. Just amazing 
Ham Sandwiches fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Apr 18, 2019 |
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Apr 18, 2019 20:57
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Preston Waters posted:How about they just fix the fuckin slowdown? If it takes one woman nine months to grow one baby, how long will it take to grow one baby using nine women?
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Apr 18, 2019 21:02
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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Saros posted:5x Crisis strength is pretty insane. Like, that 1m fleet strength possibly wouldnt be able to knock over a single contingency world. ...I've set mine to 8x  prefect posted:I want a ringworld that is also a colossus that spins, so I can fly it into other systems and cut their planets in half. The only disappointment with Gigastructure's Attack Moons is I can't just run into fleets as an attack option. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PELt1U0BCg4
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Apr 18, 2019 21:02
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Personally I'd prefer the opposite, structures that just give you infinite poo poo are boring, the game is boring when it's just make number go bigger forever. Habitats being context sensitive is a good thing, but the insistence of gating all the mechanically interesting options behind the end of the tech tree and giving them wildly different levels of utility, or making them ridiculously powerful, is not.
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Apr 18, 2019 21:10
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Darkrenown posted:It's not like there's a bit of code that says "go_slow = yes" that we can just delete. Have you not noticed the difference between 2.2. and 2.2.7? Work is ongoing and there's a fairly big change in progress, and you'll get that in a free patch, but designers and content designers changing how Megastructures unlock, what they do, and writing some events about finding artefacts doesn't detract from that effort. Most of the reason we're doing a small code-light DLC is so the rest of us have something to do while the code team focuses on optimisations. Can't fool us  https://thedailywtf.com/articles/The-Speedup-Loop
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Apr 18, 2019 21:14
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Darkrenown posted:We're already addressing sectors. It was 2 DDs ago, I think. In what sense are RWs in the wrong direction? Also to build a little more on what was said before, RWs just need a niche. They need something that would plausibly make them relevant at the stage of the game you're likely to build one, or they need to arrive much sooner in some way (which I understand is unpalatable since they feel like they should be a capstone thing). They need to either A) produce alloys, since that's kinda the meta or B) have some entirely new hitherto unknown functionality that cannot be replicated by anything else. I don't know that it's possible for RWs to stop being such a lame duck megastructure otherwise. Segments are good, it's just what they produce isn't needed by a civ that can build one.
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Apr 18, 2019 21:15
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Captain Oblivious posted:Also to build a little more on what was said before, RWs just need a niche. They need something that would plausibly make them relevant at the stage of the game you're likely to build one, or they need to arrive much sooner in some way (which I understand is unpalatable since they feel like they should be a capstone thing). They need to either A) produce alloys, since that's kinda the meta or B) have some entirely new hitherto unknown functionality that cannot be replicated by anything else. Their reduced contribution to sprawl is an interesting direction to go but not enough.
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Apr 18, 2019 21:20
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I mean, they helped me in my latest game by giving me a shiton of livingspace and jobs for the constant stream of refugees I got, when all my other worlds where literally full and habitats wheren't keeping up.
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Apr 18, 2019 21:24
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Ham Sandwiches posted:Well it's good to hear that the optimizations are still a big priority and that the current DLC is working to compliment that. uh do you remember when they removed warp also tiles Unless this is a dig at NuWiz, in which case I have some sympathy.
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Apr 18, 2019 21:39
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Aethernet posted:uh You mean when they killed my preferred means of FTL and then grossly increased the amount of micromanagement in the game?
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Apr 18, 2019 21:52
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Shadowlyger posted:You mean when they killed my preferred means of FTL and then grossly increased the amount of micromanagement in the game? The horse is dead, Shadowlyger! Leave it alone!
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Apr 18, 2019 21:54
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Captain Oblivious posted:(which I understand is unpalatable since they feel like they should be a capstone thing) Aethernet posted:The horse is dead, Shadowlyger! Leave it alone!
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Apr 18, 2019 21:57
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I will forever feel marginally vindicated that my favorite FTL mode was so good that they had to remove it from the game.
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Apr 18, 2019 22:19
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Aethernet posted:uh Well, warp didn't work since it ruined the gameplay even though it was cool conceptually. I find it odd that Jump Drives have been nerfed so heavily and that the movement doesn't really open up even in the lategame. Again, all the work went into it, why 100% discard it. Jump gates are close but... as with other things are also relegated to the endgame. I can live with them though, would be nice to be warping around in the 2500s imo as a fun lategame thing. Tiles, yeah, I'm glad that got taken out back and shot. I don't see how tiles are related to the concepts of exploring space. And in general I would just say, looking at EU4 for instance, the game really keeps opening up as you go along. At the start it's fairly constrained just like Stellaris is - manpower is tight, money is tight, taking territory is difficult and requires a lot of warscore and admin, you can't field very big armies. As the game goes on and tech progresses those constraints loosen up. You can field bigger and bigger armies, you have more and more money, you can take bigger chunks in war and integrate them more easily. You can create vassals when you feel like it, and your provinces get ever more productive. I think Stellaris has a lot of cool ideas and techs but it doesn't quite map into the same flow as EU4 does as one goes through it. It feels very limited in terms of never letting the player out of the fleet box or the starbase box or the planet box or the pop box. Same for energy and minerals and all that jazz. It's probably just a different design philosophy but I find it odd that in Stellaris the theme is about breaking sort of these physical chains that bind us (the ability to create matter and energy in almost unlimited supply and put it where you want it) while the game design is anything but that.
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Apr 18, 2019 22:19
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Aethernet posted:The horse is dead, Shadowlyger! Leave it alone! At least uplift it before you start loving it again, I mean, c'mon.
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Apr 18, 2019 22:22
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Or even just... like habitats and megastructures and collosi and stuff are gates are all interesting ways to interact with the playing field, but they're all stuffed at the end of the game and terribly balanced and also often really lazily implemented where you just drop a bunch of resources in a pile and then the pile spits out smaller amounts of resources over time. It's like there's a game, and then there's a bunch of weird poo poo that happens at the end, and they don't really interact with each other much.
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Apr 18, 2019 22:38
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Aethernet posted:The horse is dead, Shadowlyger! Leave it alone! I will beat this horse until there is nothing left but cosmic dust, for my rage will shatter the planet itself.
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Apr 18, 2019 22:56
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The game needs some sort of "wonder victory condition" to make all of the MORE NUMBERS BIG gameplay elements be engaging.
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Apr 18, 2019 23:47
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OwlFancier posted:Or even just... like habitats and megastructures and collosi and stuff are gates are all interesting ways to interact with the playing field, but they're all stuffed at the end of the game and terribly balanced and also often really lazily implemented where you just drop a bunch of resources in a pile and then the pile spits out smaller amounts of resources over time. I really think that they need to....extend the tech tree or have more stuff like L-Gates or whatever. By the time you get to the mega-structures, collossi, etc. you should be like 75% of the way through the game. Instead it feels like you get them when the game is 90% done and then you run out the clock waiting for the end crisis, which is usually just a bunch of fleet swatting. Like, as much as Wiz hated victory conditions, maybe there needs to be some kind of end game "ascendancy" goal to work through to do while you wait for (or fight) the crisis. Maybe something with that big "dead" mystery zone in the center of the galaxy...
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Apr 18, 2019 23:52
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I think part of the problem with megastructures is that they are optional. They can be a nice boost in resource output if the game runs long enough for you to get a good return on investment, but as it stands you never actually need them to win, which isn't surprising since they have so far been optional through ascendancy perks and making them so powerful that they win games would no longer make getting them an actual choice. But since you don't need them, they're little more than very expensive flavor in the vast majority of games. I mean, I love megastructures and build them every game, but that's because I think they are cool and they let me flex my empire's resources, not because I need that extra energy, or minerals, or living space to win. Considering the massive resource sink they are, you most of the time can't build them unless you already are well on your way to winning. The easiest way to make megastructures actually good would be to make them a necessary step in order to win. That of course flies in the face of how they've been treated so far, and would probably screw the current gameplay balance over completely, not in the least because it would make science output even more powerful than it already is, something the game already tries to curb by making the new ship components you can research fairly small upgrades that can be overcome by the other if they can field a somewhat bigger fleet. You would also need to extend the game in order for megastructures to have time to shift the balance of power, though this is possibly the easiest part since you can extend the game yourself by slowing tech progress and delaying the end-date. Not having megastructures show up around the time repeatable techs make their appearance would help though, either by making them show up earlier or by adding more techs between then and the end of the tech trees. Of course, I'm not a game designer so there's probably a few dozen reasons why this hasn't been done already that I'm not thinking of. AG3 fucked around with this message at 01:16 on Apr 19, 2019 |
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Apr 19, 2019 01:13
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If Megastructures had more %based empire modifiers that you can build with a lot of effort that would be cool I think . Like a Dyson sphere could be a straight +% to whatever your energy production is.
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Apr 19, 2019 01:17
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Baron Porkface posted:The game needs some sort of "wonder victory condition" to make all of the MORE NUMBERS BIG gameplay elements be engaging. Which then sets your civ as a potential Fallen Empire civ in future games (within the existing archetypes, but keeping your portrait, pop modifiers, etc)
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Apr 19, 2019 01:30
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LogisticEarth posted:I really think that they need to....extend the tech tree or have more stuff like L-Gates or whatever. By the time you get to the mega-structures, collossi, etc. you should be like 75% of the way through the game. Instead it feels like you get them when the game is 90% done and then you run out the clock waiting for the end crisis, which is usually just a bunch of fleet swatting. I don't even think that's necessary, the tech tree is already more dense than it really needs to be and the game is paced much better, I think, if you double or even triple the tech/tradition costs. It gives you much more time fighting people and you also spend much more time at each tech level. Tiers 1 to 5 on things seem pretty meaningless but when they last a lot longer, each upgrade feels more significant. I think, honestly, you could get a long way by chucking the concept of gate techs out the window as much as possible. So you can build up to any level of starbase from the start, for example. Or any of the ship types, but what you instead have tech wise is ways of making the larger or more advanced options cheaper. So a citadel would be buildable from day 1, but would require a lot more investment of resources and particularly, of time. So you might be able to afford one of them around a key position, but as the game goes on they become more common. Same with megastructures, you should be able to start the foundation of one right out the gate more or less. Start building a ring of energy satellites around a star. Eventually upgrade them to have habitation, then you can choose to either build more satellites in more orbits, or start expanding between the satellites with more habitation space. Eventually your investment starts to transform into either a ringworld or a dyson sphere, but it's all organic and done bit by bit over the course of the game. You could have edicts to move between steps and events to add flavour to the outcome or challenges to advance or hinder construction depending on how you do at them. All the interesting stuff like high level development of ships, bases, planets, and megastructures should be on the table as early as possible and should be something that fully integrates into the rest of the game. Maybe you get an event that says there's a resource you need to build your habitat ring out to the next level, but it's on a world occupied by another empire, do you diplo them for it? Go to war? Do you substitute it with alloys or a strategic resource? Do you make do with what you have but it takes longer? There's so much you can do with it but the game just doesn't.
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Apr 19, 2019 01:32
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LogisticEarth posted:Like, as much as Wiz hated victory conditions, maybe there needs to be some kind of end game "ascendancy" goal to work through to do while you wait for (or fight) the crisis. Make it virtually impenetrable exotic space that all of the technologically ascended cultures you find ruins of have retired to to let the younger species have their turn. Requires tech and enormous amounts of energy to break into. Maybe work in megastructures in as a requirement for a mass relay station. e: alternatively, just make it a requirement to build a structure large enough to support and sustain all your pops so you can disappear into the core all at once, leaving no trace. Lazyhound fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Apr 19, 2019 |
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Apr 19, 2019 04:31
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I wonder what the massive buffs to output the dev diary presents will do to perceptions of megastructures. If you play a tall tech-focused game you could almost certainly be putting up both a sphere and an extractor by the late 2200s, and all of a sudden be able to practically poo poo minerals and energy. You can then rapidly transit to conquest with an unbeatable economy. The problem is almost certainly that you'll need to go for Ecus too to ensure your alloy production can scale. Edit: in case you missed these, handily they've just been tweeted: https://twitter.com/StellarisGame/status/1119121249181949952?s=19 Aethernet fucked around with this message at 07:48 on Apr 19, 2019 |
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Apr 19, 2019 07:02
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LogisticEarth posted:I really think that they need to....extend the tech tree or have more stuff like L-Gates or whatever. By the time you get to the mega-structures, collossi, etc. you should be like 75% of the way through the game. Instead it feels like you get them when the game is 90% done and then you run out the clock waiting for the end crisis, which is usually just a bunch of fleet swatting. OwlFancier posted:I don't even think that's necessary, the tech tree is already more dense than it really needs to be and the game is paced much better, I think, if you double or even triple the tech/tradition costs. It gives you much more time fighting people and you also spend much more time at each tech level. Tiers 1 to 5 on things seem pretty meaningless but when they last a lot longer, each upgrade feels more significant. Splicer fucked around with this message at 10:04 on Apr 19, 2019 |
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Apr 19, 2019 10:02
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Draw chances being influenced by something under the player's control, like policies or ascension picks, seems like the least code-heavy way to approach this. Just toggle some switch to 'focus on gateways now', giving increased weight to that tech and its prereqs. Or hell, just explicitly highlight the prereqs.
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Apr 19, 2019 12:27
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Innocent_Bystander posted:Draw chances being influenced by something under the player's control, like policies or ascension picks, seems like the least code-heavy way to approach this. Just toggle some switch to 'focus on gateways now', giving increased weight to that tech and its prereqs. Or hell, just explicitly highlight the prereqs. This is somewhat in the game already with scientist specialties. I was waiting forever for Mega-engineering in my last fame until I swapped my genius guy for a voidcraft specialist. It would be nice to be able to spend extra energy or influence or whatever to be able to hire a leader with a specific talent.
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Apr 19, 2019 14:42
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Gyshall posted:+1 for unique buildings or decisions on Habitats/Ring Worlds. Ring Worlds should be literally Halo, make them super awesome and sweet. Halo ringworlds are a...millionth? trillionth? the size of a Stellaris ringworld though
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Apr 19, 2019 17:06
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Niven Ringworlds are fantasy sci-fi and people shouldn't get fixated on generating numbers for them. It's like those Star Wars "manuals" where they talk about how TIE Fighters have lasers that explode with the energy of a million nuclear bombs, only the X-wing shields must be even stronger, which means that every X-wing has a powerplant equivalent to 500 nuclear reactors. It's all pretend all the way down.
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Apr 19, 2019 17:51
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Kaal posted:Niven Ringworlds are fantasy sci-fi and people shouldn't get fixated on generating numbers for them. It's like those Star Wars "manuals" where they talk about how TIE Fighters have lasers that explode with the energy of a million nuclear bombs, only the X-wing shields must be even stronger, which means that every X-wing has a powerplant equivalent to 500 nuclear reactors. It's all pretend all the way down. Still though, having as much housing as jobs on a ringworld doesn't feel right at all. I'm not gonna get all hung up on Stellaris making something as ridiculous a Niven Ringworld seem reasonable, but so long as we're dealing with silly space magic there's no reason to be so restrained. And there's plenty of room for Halo/Culture orbitals in Stellaris if orbitals are going to be expanded and have more 'tiers' or whatever anyway.
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Apr 19, 2019 20:09
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I'd be more concerned with making them interesting than "realistic" so just making them good at high density system habitation is probably better than making them have literally infinite pops or whatever. The game, I think, is more fun when you're on something like economic parity with the rest of the galaxy and you're not just utterly escaping the context of the majority of the game and fielding twenty zillion battleships to fight things with a gajillion fleet power and all the actual gameplay bits are meaningless now.
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Apr 19, 2019 20:15
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THE loving MOON posted:Still though, having as much housing as jobs on a ringworld doesn't feel right at all. I'm not gonna get all hung up on Stellaris making something as ridiculous a Niven Ringworld seem reasonable, but so long as we're dealing with silly space magic there's no reason to be so restrained.
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Apr 19, 2019 20:18
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Ship Designer? Habitat designer!
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Apr 19, 2019 21:28
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Hey, cool! I found the location of the Cybrex homeworld. Let's see where it is...  Oh. 
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Apr 19, 2019 22:22
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With all the neat megastructure stuff is anything going to happen that will either tone down the ecumenopolis or buff habitats so that you'd ever want to bother taking habitats or ringworlds/some other megastructure instead of ecumenopolis.
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Apr 19, 2019 22:59
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Nuclearmonkee posted:With all the neat megastructure stuff is anything going to happen that will either tone down the ecumenopolis or buff habitats so that you'd ever want to bother taking habitats or ringworlds/some other megastructure instead of ecumenopolis. My first game of 2.2 was last week, after a long absence, and I was very disappointed to get the First League as my precursors since the Cybrex system is so awesome. That was before I discovered the First League homeworld was an empty ecumenopolis. My second game which is ongoing, I got the Cybrex as my precursors and now found myself disappointed it wasn't the First League! And man I felt the lack of infinite consumer goods and alloys real bad after learning 2.2 with a free Ecumenopolis thrown in.
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Apr 19, 2019 23:04
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I hope they don't change the tech trees at all after reading a lot of these "they should do x" posts. The randomness in the card draw system is what sets Stellaris apart from the other grand strategy games
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Apr 19, 2019 23:15
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Anyone who claims Fen Habbanis isn't a game-changer, enabling tall empires or at the very least shaving a hundred+ years off a snowball, is a liar. Even then, a powerful hostile empire or crisis could fire and glom over a turtler without the boost of a city planet, as the only thing that allows them to be viable on higher difficulties and denser galaxies is just not getting attacked for the first 200-300 years of the game--cutting that to half or a third of the time spent researching with a thumb up your rear end is huge.
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