|
Fuzzy Mammal posted:Hey so an analysis firm just put out a report on the digital ccg space with some very interesting stats: fuckin' lol artifact, they really dropped the ball not having an overlay since viewing a stream of it was hard enough with all of it's many nonsense mechanics, and not knowing what the cards did on top of that made it nearly impossible.
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 00:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 00:45 |
|
|
artifact had a passable ruleset wedded to the most nightmarish monetization scheme you’ve ever seen. it was like pure digital capitalism injected directly into your eyeballs the second you booted it up
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 00:45
|
|
|
DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:artifact had a passable ruleset wedded to the most nightmarish monetization scheme you’ve ever seen. it was like pure digital capitalism injected directly into your eyeballs the second you booted it up The monetization doesn't explain the complete death of Twitch streams and viewership - even if it cost $5 a game or whatever, somebody would be streaming it, and if it was tolerable to watch somebody would be watching it. It's just totally awful to view, and since nobody can stomach watching it, nobody bothers to stream it.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 00:51
|
|
|
Artifact was basically the equivalent of playing three simultaneous lantern control mirrors every single game
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 01:06
|
|
|
Elyv posted:Slay the Spire owns but I'm pretty sure I would not refer to it as a ccg it owns, and is the hot new esport ptroll posted:It was the Valve / Dota one, and it was basically playing three unwatchable control mirrors at the same time. it's cool how the completely unpalatable monetization scheme of "buy the game, then buy cards separately through a byzantine secondary market of speculators and bot vendors, also the actual matches have an entry fee" I bought it because 20$ to draft forever seemed like a good deal, it got kind of lame though because the card pool is small and without ranked mode there's nothing stopping people from just dropping and redrafting if they don't think their deck is good enough.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 01:06
|
|
|
I used to play Elder Scrolls Legends and man that game sounds like its been in a death spiral for a good couple years now. They fired the developer and got a new one who replaced the UI with the worst looking garbage ever and broke everything and then it took them a year to release an expansion. I can't believe that many people are still playing it, with how little deck variety that game has. Its basically the worst parts of Magic and Hearthstone, with a dumb split battlefield gimmick where cards in 1 half can't interact with cards on the other half.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 01:15
|
|
|
Artifact was kind of DOA to begin with. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_GcXaXsmOU Still can't get enough of that reaction.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 01:17
|
|
|
Framboise posted:Artifact was kind of DOA to begin with. 
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 01:23
|
|
|
Tubgoat posted:That Dr. Garfield was attached to it still makes me sad. Most of the problems with Artifact are related to development. The cards are all loving boring, there are obvious features that needed to be in the game day 1 like some game modes or a streaming overlay or a ranking system or replays or a spectator mode or....well it's basically missing everything. Maybe the insanely complicated base mechanics would be fun with some cards that were fun to play and weren't just "add +1-3 to this number" or whatever, but the game is still incredibly barebones for a card game that cost $20 and still required you to buy cards to play.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 01:43
|
|
|
Tubgoat posted:That Dr. Garfield was attached to it still makes me sad. He's apparently the reason for most of the things considered bad with it. He insisted on the monetization and he came to them with the 3 lane format.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 01:53
|
|
|
Consider also that Richard Garfield recently designed that lovely unique sealed deck game and also that every other game he's made since Magic has faded into the aether and also that early Magic was an incomprehensible mess. It might just be that he's a hack and Magic was his stopped clock being right twice a day moment.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 01:57
|
|
|
The Shortest Path posted:Consider also that Richard Garfield recently designed that lovely unique sealed deck game and also that every other game he's made since Magic has faded into the aether and also that early Magic was an incomprehensible mess. apparently Keyforge is really cool though?
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 02:02
|
|
|
The Shortest Path posted:Consider also that Richard Garfield recently designed that lovely unique sealed deck game and also that every other game he's made since Magic has faded into the aether and also that early Magic was an incomprehensible mess. So, is it a coincidence that he helped design Ravnica, Innistrad and Dominaria and those sets were all extremely well received?
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 02:02
|
|
|
Hellsau posted:Most of the problems with Artifact are related to development. The cards are all loving boring, there are obvious features that needed to be in the game day 1 like some game modes or a streaming overlay or a ranking system or replays or a spectator mode or....well it's basically missing everything. Maybe the insanely complicated base mechanics would be fun with some cards that were fun to play and weren't just "add +1-3 to this number" or whatever, but the game is still incredibly barebones for a card game that cost $20 and still required you to buy cards to play. Arena lacked a lot of that on day 1 tbh but it's Magic not a bad game
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 02:03
|
|
|
Some Numbers posted:So, is it a coincidence that he helped design Ravnica, Innistrad and Dominaria and those sets were all extremely well received? He probably didn't have free reign like he did at other places
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 02:03
|
|
|
I think Richard Garfield is a good mechanic developer, but shouldn't ever be a lead designer. He has interesting, off the wall ideas- Sagas were apparently mostly his idea- but he needs someone to keep him in check. He's really good at creating mechanics that explore interesting design space, but it seems like he doesn't consider the playability of the mechanic. The 3 lane system of Artifact is interesting design space for a digital card game, but how the game handled it was executed in a piss-poor fashion.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 02:11
|
|
|
Lone Goat posted:apparently Keyforge is really cool though? KeyForge is my favorite card game, mechanically, since Netrunner.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 02:16
|
|
|
Kild posted:He's apparently the reason for most of the things considered bad with it. He insisted on the monetization and he came to them with the 3 lane format. To be fair when I first heard about the 3 lane thing, it seemed like a clever way to represent a MOBA, so I don't think the idea itself was too bad. There just ended up being way too much to keep track of across all three lanes that seemed to make it unfun to play and worse to watch. Also for a game that was looking to be highly strategic, didn't it have a lot of extreme RNG effects like "units in this lane have a 50% chance to not die to lethal damage"?
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 02:16
|
|
|
Another victim of Adventure Time's creative license.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 02:24
|
|
|
Keyforge is super, super good, because it solves one of the traditional problems of CCGs (the mana system) in an incredibly creative way. Most games either require land-type cards which creates the problems of screw and flood, or automatically generate mana and are then constrained in card design by the fact that both players get a perfect curveout. Keyforge constrains you not by turn number or how many lands you’ve drawn but by what bullshit you happened to end up with in your deck and which house it works with. It’s seriously genius.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 02:44
|
|
|
The Shortest Path posted:Consider also that Richard Garfield recently designed that lovely unique sealed deck game and also that every other game he's made since Magic has faded into the aether and also that early Magic was an incomprehensible mess. berenzen posted:I think Richard Garfield is a good mechanic developer, but shouldn't ever be a lead designer. He has interesting, off the wall ideas- Sagas were apparently mostly his idea- but he needs someone to keep him in check. He's really good at creating mechanics that explore interesting design space, but it seems like he doesn't consider the playability of the mechanic. The 3 lane system of Artifact is interesting design space for a digital card game, but how the game handled it was executed in a piss-poor fashion. he's very good at designing evocative mechanics and unique gameplay elements but there's a huge difference between a game that is fun to play and a game that is conducive to balanced competitive play, spending money continuously, etc. Board games fit his style better, all his ccg ideas need to be heavily filtered.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 02:47
|
|
|
The Shortest Path posted:Consider also that Richard Garfield recently designed that lovely unique sealed deck game and also that every other game he's made since Magic has faded into the aether and also that early Magic was an incomprehensible mess. Richard Garfield is George Lucas is what you're saying.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 03:37
|
|
|
berenzen posted:I think Richard Garfield is a good mechanic developer, but shouldn't ever be a lead designer. He has interesting, off the wall ideas- Sagas were apparently mostly his idea- but he needs someone to keep him in check. He's really good at creating mechanics that explore interesting design space, but it seems like he doesn't consider the playability of the mechanic. The 3 lane system of Artifact is interesting design space for a digital card game, but how the game handled it was executed in a piss-poor fashion. Entropic posted:Richard Garfield is George Lucas is what you're saying. Yeah pretty much these things.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 04:57
|
|
|
DAD LOST MY IPOD posted:artifact had a passable ruleset wedded to the most nightmarish monetization scheme you’ve ever seen. it was like pure digital capitalism injected directly into your eyeballs the second you booted it up It's pretty much a direct copy of the MTGO economy, but there aren't a million invested Artifact players who have been playing for fifteen years. Also you had to play Artifact instead of Magic.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 06:52
|
|
|
mossyfisk posted:It's pretty much a direct copy of the MTGO economy, but there aren't a million invested Artifact players who have been playing for fifteen years. Also you had to play Artifact instead of Magic. There isn't a lovely marketplace in Artifact like there is in MTGO, where you have search through a bunch of different bots to find the cards you need. Instead, the Steam Marketplace exists which is searchable, but Valve takes a chunk off each transaction. Certainly greedier on Valve's part but at least it functioned without requiring several outside companies setting up businesses on the platform. Incidentally an entire collection of Artifact cards is $53, so if you want to buy everything, $73 and you're set.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 07:01
|
|
|
Artifact does have some neat ideas. For example, it does solve the play/draw problem pretty well. Hopefully some later game designer can be inspired by that system and make it work without all the lovely parts of artifact's simultaneous combat.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 07:41
|
|
|
If Artifact was fun then people would be playing despite the monetization. It just wasn't fun. Like yeah, you are playing 3 simultaneous games at once. You have either have to kill two 20 Life towers or an 80 Life ancient behind a tower (overflow damage doesn't count). You could lose a lane on purpose and push two lanes and just plant a super tanky hero in the lost lane that spams AOE to slow down your opponent or you can just build your deck to rush down one lane etc. Mana is linear and you can only cast spells in a lane if a hero (you have 5) of the right colour is in that lane. Problem starts here because Hero and Creep (random free minions that just attack) placement is random at start (RNG) so the meta option was to put really beefy heroes/hero killers in your front 3 and hope they get matched up against a weak hero and one shot them on turn 1 (RNG). However, you don't want to kill too many heroes at once because they respawn after a few turns and the player can now actually place them where they're good. But if you kill lots of heroes, you get gold! And at EOT you can buy items from the Secret Shop with... RNG inventory! Also each turn the directions (forward or diagonal left/right) your units attack changes (more RNG) so you have to reevaluate the board state every turn. It is entirely possible for one lovely creep to spawn chump block 3 of your biggest units turn after turn after turn and your only recourse is to either use removal on it or use on of the many spells that force your attack directions forwards towards the tower! By the time you've finished one game you've had to make so many micro decisions that do not obviously present to you their effect on the game until turns later that you're tired as hell and alt+f4 out Also they promised never to nerf cards and then they nerfed the most overpowered card in the game and the market fell through
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 08:06
|
|
|
Who doesn’t like artifact dunking! My favorite inexplicable poo poo is you can have your hero spawn in lane against creeps and they just stand there taking creep hits and then die. The game forces everyone to be the worst dota player possible.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 08:49
|
|
|
How valuable is proliferate going to be in limited? It feels like it will have a lot of uses but I wasn't around for Scars of Mirrodin. Like, 2/3 vigilance, ETB proliferate for cmc 2 will be good, no?
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 13:30
|
|
|
CharlieFoxtrot posted:How valuable is proliferate going to be in limited? It feels like it will have a lot of uses but I wasn't around for Scars of Mirrodin. Huatli's Raptor is probably good even before considering proliferate. Many of the uncommon planeswalkers naturally end up with 1 Loyalty counter, so you can use proliferate to squeeze out addtional activations. The GW game plan seems to be going wide with +1/+1 counters, so proliferate can be a key part of its success. You can use proliferate to grow your Army token, but you'll usually only have one of those in play so it's not as important.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 13:40
|
|
|
CharlieFoxtrot posted:How valuable is proliferate going to be in limited? It feels like it will have a lot of uses but I wasn't around for Scars of Mirrodin. Lots of cards have Amass, which generates +1/+1 counters, you'll have the opportunity to play several planeswalkers, and theres a lot of random +1/+1 counters on combat tricks and stuff. Its going to be nuts.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 13:44
|
|
|
Proliferate isn't going to be a "build-around" mechanic from what I've seen. It should be factored into card evaluation, but it shouldn't be the primary factor like Amass might be.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 13:53
|
|
|
AlternateNu posted:Proliferate isn't going to be a "build-around" mechanic from what I've seen. It should be factored into card evaluation, but it shouldn't be the primary factor like Amass might be. on the other hand, the text "proliferate" does nothing on it's own. some of the enablers are fine on their own (like the 2/3 vigilance for 2 and the 4/4 for 4), but if you put the rest in your deck, you need to do some work to make sure you have enough sources of +1/+1 counters to get things started
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 14:26
|
|
|
little munchkin posted:on the other hand, the text "proliferate" does nothing on it's own. some of the enablers are fine on their own (like the 2/3 vigilance for 2 and the 4/4 for 4), but if you put the rest in your deck, you need to do some work to make sure you have enough sources of +1/+1 counters to get things started If you have two planeswalkers in your deck that seems like a good enough payoff if the proliferate card is decent enough. It's the core behind my upcoming Selesnya Pets gimmick deck
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 14:59
|
|
|
Anyone else excited for forcing jank in WAR? I'm shoving Cruel Celebrant into B/W Tempo, want to see where Saheeli will fit in Drakes, and am super pumped to cast Quasiduplicate on Gleaming Overseer over and over again.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 15:16
|
|
|
I had far too much fun casting Quasiduplicate on Guttersnipe.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 15:18
|
|
|
If you send attackers at the wanderer and more at the opponent, if you kill Wanderer do you do damage to the opponent? BizarroAzrael fucked around with this message at 15:30 on Apr 20, 2019 |
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 15:18
|
|
|
You do damage even in the Wanderer survives. It's noncombat damage.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 15:22
|
|
|
CharlieFoxtrot posted:Realtalk, while I wouldn't want them to change Magic, a turn-based game with simultaneous action to completely obviate the play-first advantage would be super cool You could always play literally any of Dave Sirlin's lovely games if this is what you want. Watching two people put a card face down then flip them over is his pornography.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 15:30
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 10, 2024 00:45 |
|
|
AlternateNu posted:Proliferate isn't going to be a "build-around" mechanic from what I've seen. It should be factored into card evaluation, but it shouldn't be the primary factor like Amass might be. Given that your average limited deck is going to be running 2-3 planeswalkers I imagine some incidental Proliferate is going to be much higher value than it appears in a vacuum.
|
|
#
?
Apr 20, 2019 15:40
|
|
