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Angry Salami posted:I've heard that, towards the end, it was unclear if anyone was actually looking at the comics that were being submitted for CCA approval, and Archie Comics had just started slapping the 'Approved by the Comics Code Authority' seal on their covers without bothering having them reviewed. Rhyno posted:Supposedly someone went to their offices that had been long abandoned. Complete with an overstuffed mail slot of submission envelopes. The Comics Code Authority: Defunct Since 2009? Who Was RUnning the CCA The Past Year? Dawgstar posted:My favorite way people got around the code was that evil supernatural stuff was limited to what you could put in and you had things like Marvel calling zombies 'zuvembies' which were exactly the same thing. Also once the regulations loosened they immediately stopped being wishy-washy about Ghost Rider who then promptly because a demon from Hell. code:code:The "Marvel couldn't say Zombie, so they said Zuvembie" story is widespread, but not really sourced anywhere. The Code itself mentions "walking dead" not "zombies", and I'm honestly not sure how well established "zombie" to mean what it means in 2019 was in the early 1970s. I assume they used "zuvembies" so they could tie it into the literary heritage of Robert E. Howard or something, since that is the wiggle room they were already given for vampires, werewolves, and ghouls. The other thing to remember is that the CCA definitely played in the waters of "we'll know it when we see it" stuff, since the code explicitly bans "the walking dead" and the first instance of the word 'zuvembie' in a code-approved comic I can find is the Scarlet Witch calling Wonder Man "one of the walking dead -- A ZUVEMBIE!" As for the other example, the code was revised to allow some supernatural stuff in 1971 and Ghost Rider appeared after that in 1972. In his very first appearance they were unambiguous about him selling his soul to Satan and having demonic powers. Like, Johnny Blaze performs a Satanic ritual and offers to sell his soul to a red horned guy who goes by the name of Satan and then Satan says he is a demon now. It wasn't until much later that they started being wishy-washy about whether or not one of their superheroes was a Demon powered by Satan and was perhaps just a Dark Spirit powered by An Other Dimensional Sorceror Named Zarathos or Something Not Quite So Explicitly Satanic, and that was (I think) honestly mostly down to series writer Tony Isabella's personal faith, I think? Random Stranger posted:Don't forget that a "living vampire" doesn't count as a "vampire". Selachian posted:Of course, that was also because Archie's publisher, John Goldwater, was the main founder of the Comics Magazine Association of America, which created and enforced the Comics Code. Which led to charges that the Red Circle line of horror comics (published by Archie in the '70s) could get away with printing stuff that violated the CC thanks to Goldwater's influence. As for the Red Circle horror comics, they all came out after the aforementioned Code Revision of 1971, and it really doesn't seem like they were a) any darker/gorier/macabre than the other code-approved horror/supernatural books coming out under the code at Marvel/DC/etc. b) they jumped onto this trend of publishing horror comics for like... eight months in 1974? Though I am curious as to why Charles Bronson is lowkey cosplaying as Batman in the lower left corner of this (code approved) Red Circle book that lasted exactly one issue:  I think there's a lot of truth to Goldwater having an outsized influence on the operations of the Comics Code since he was acting chairman of the "association" for so long, but by the mid 1970s it seemed like his influence was waning, it absolutely did not extend past the early 1980s, and 95% of that influence was essentially going "Archie is good wholesome family entertainment and if we can do it why can't you be all American and squeaky clean like us, Marvel/DC?". Red Circle seemed like an odd trend-jumping experiment, not an exploitation of influence at the CCA. Edge & Christian fucked around with this message at 15:46 on Apr 18, 2019 |
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Apr 18, 2019 15:39
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That'd be cool if the office thing was actually true, but I've heard so many variations what I figured it was crap.
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Apr 18, 2019 15:47
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Rhyno posted:That'd be cool if the office thing was actually true, but I've heard so many variations what I figured it was crap.
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Apr 18, 2019 16:08
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I said supposedly, was that not enough to confirm my skepticism?
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Apr 18, 2019 16:11
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Was there or was there not also some rules along the lines of "You can show villains doing bad things like murder or drugs, but only so long as they were clearly arrested/died by ironic means by the end of the issue" and "They are clearly defined, black and white villains, no shades of grey - no moral ambiguity"?
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Apr 18, 2019 18:09
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Rhyno posted:I said supposedly, was that not enough to confirm my skepticism? "Supposedly Al Ewing is going to be following up on Hercules and the New Greek Gods in a series later this year, probably an Avengers book" is something I don't have confirmation on, but I also do not "figure it's crap". "Supposedly Steve Gerber bit off Gene Colan's face while high on mushrooms and that's the real reason he left Howard the Duck" is something that is like 100% bullshit and is probably not worth relaying without stronger caveats. CzarChasm posted:Was there or was there not also some rules along the lines of "You can show villains doing bad things like murder or drugs, but only so long as they were clearly arrested/died by ironic means by the end of the issue" and "They are clearly defined, black and white villains, no shades of grey - no moral ambiguity"? 1954 Code posted:(1) Crimes shall never be presented in such a way as to create sympathy for the criminal, to promote distrust of the forces of law and justice, or to inspire others with a desire to imitate criminals. 1971 Revision posted:(1) Crimes shall never be presented in such a way as to promote distrust of the forces of law and justice, or to inspire others with a desire to imitate criminals. 1989 Revision posted:In general recognizable national, social, political, cultural, ethnic and racial groups, religious institutions, law enforcement authorities will be portrayed in a positive light. These include the government on the national, state, and municipal levels, including all of its numerous departments, agencies and services; law enforcement agencies such as the FBI, the Secret Service, the CIA, etc.; the military, both United States and foreign; known religious organizations; ethnic advancement agencies; foreign leaders and representatives of other governments and national groups; and social groups identifiable by lifestyle, such as homosexuals, the economically disadvantaged, the economically privileged, the homeless, senior citizens, minors, etc. 1989 Revision posted:Recognizing that no document can address all of the complex issues and concerns that face our changing society, the member publishers have established a permanent committee composed of the senior editor of each member’s staff. The committee will meet regularly to review those issues and concerns as they affect our publications, and to meet with the guide and administrator of the Comics Code, and will replace the previous written guidelines of the Comics Code.
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Apr 18, 2019 18:40
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Well the major difference is this is a story that had been told many times before. Unlike your examples.
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Apr 18, 2019 19:07
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My favorite Comics Code thing is the silly rumor that Marv Wolfman had to use a pen name because they couldn't say "wolfman" in comics.
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Apr 19, 2019 00:16
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Unmature posted:My favorite Comics Code thing is the silly rumor that Marv Wolfman had to use a pen name because they couldn't say "wolfman" in comics. It's not really a rumor, just an incorrect telling of a true story. quote:Wolfman, on the panel "Marvel Comics: The Method and the Madness" at the 1974 New York City Comic Art Convention, told the audience that when he first began working for DC Comics, he received DC's first writing credit on its mystery magazines. Gerry Conway, who wrote the horror-host interstitial pages between stories, wrote in one issue that the following story was told by a "wandering Wolfman." The Comics Code Authority, which did not permit the mention of werewolves or wolfmen, demanded it be removed. DC informed the Authority that "Wolfman" was the writer's last name, so the Authority insisted he be given a credit to show the "Wolfman" was a real person. Once Wolfman was given a credit, other writers demanded them as well. Shortly, credits were given to all writers and artists.
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Apr 19, 2019 00:21
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thank you marv and your funny last name for causing companies to credit people better
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Apr 19, 2019 00:29
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Lurdiak posted:It's not really a rumor, just an incorrect telling of a true story. Haha that’s awesome. Probably some guy hundreds of years ago trained wolves or some poo poo so they invented that weird last name and it led to creator credits being a standard.
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Apr 19, 2019 00:36
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Forgive me if I'm asking this question in the wrong place, happy to move to a Batman specific thread or the recommendation thread if that's a better place for it: In college, with the guidance of friends, I read pretty much all of the Batman family of comic books, from the Jason Todd death story until just after No Man's Land. I'd kind of like to revisit it to see how my perception has changed, and maybe finish off the story, since it seems like I stopped just before what was technically a reboot, and maybe start just a tiny bit earlier, just after the Crisis that sets the continuity. My Google skills are failing me at finding a guide like my college friends did in terms of reading order. Essentially, I'm looking for a chronological list of all the "New Earth" Batman (and family) stories, i.e., something like:
Even better if there are headings that sort of separate out arcs like "Knightfall," etc. I know there are collected/condensed works that basically collect the major storylines, but I found the complete list of single issues to be so digestible and fun way back in the halcyon days of 2006.
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Apr 19, 2019 15:33
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Azrael got so many more issues than that, sadly. I used to have a reading order for post-crisis Batman but all I have left on hand is a reading list for Knightfall. It doesn't even include Knightsquest and Knightsend! Here it is anyway, in case it helps.
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Apr 19, 2019 15:57
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Lurdiak posted:
I could swear it used to be all over the internet, but now all I can find is sort of rough summaries and the trade collections, which I think mostly only include Batman and Detective Comics. There's got to be someone, somewhere who's put the whole thing on Google Drive, I know I've done it for my own sphere of nerdery. The Knightfall one is a start, anyway, thanks.
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Apr 19, 2019 16:19
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I think it's probably still out there but search engines have gotten a lot worse at finding obscure specific things ever since they started trying to guess what you "actually" meant to search.
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Apr 19, 2019 16:26
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Lurdiak posted:I think it's probably still out there but search engines have gotten a lot worse at finding obscure specific things ever since they started trying to guess what you "actually" meant to search. That and Pinterest polluting the results.
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Apr 19, 2019 16:49
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If I had to list "10 things I am almost positive the internet can provide quickly and easily," this would have been one of them. Times have changed.
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Apr 19, 2019 16:53
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It's kind of a convoluted question? If you're using "New Earth" in your searches that's really only a term that was coined retroactively for Post-Crisis Earth in like... 2007? If you're just looking for a chronological list (by release date) of every comic with the word "Batman" in it from 1988-1999, you can find that pretty easily, though you'd have to go in and collate that with books with Azrael/Robin/Nightwing/Detective/Catwoman/Batgirl/Gotham City in the title too. If you want a list of every comic that Batman appeared in month by month (by release date) that is also easy to find, though it doesn't do much to indicate whether it's a reprint, cameo, etc. But then the question becomes, do you want to read them in the order that they 'happened' to Batman and his pals? That gets more complicated. Do you care about flashback/untold tales sort of stories that take place before Jason Todd dies (like 90% of Legends of the Dark Knight)? Do you want to read the story arcs that directly crossover (and jump back and forth) between non-Batman books like New Titans or the Janus Directive or something? Books where Batman is a significant guest star but it doesn't tie directly into Batman's comic? If something like Zero Hour heavily involves the Bat Family, do you want to read that mini-series or just the crossover issues in Batman/Detective? Also the Man of Steel issue that guest stars Batman? All of the Suicide Squad issues that introduce Oracle before she gets folded back into the Bat Family? It's still going to be anywhere between like two and three thousand comic books, I am also kind of surprised that no one has done the legwork to actually figure out where Batman vs. Predator II fits into story-wise with War of the Gods and Batman's guest appearance in Bob The Intergalactic Bum, but I am also not completely surprised the project didn't end in a neat clean easily Google-able page.
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Apr 19, 2019 19:58
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Just wait 10 years for the CMRO guys to get there with the DC reading order.
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Apr 19, 2019 19:59
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Edge & Christian posted:It's kind of a convoluted question? If you're using "New Earth" in your searches that's really only a term that was coined retroactively for Post-Crisis Earth in like... 2007? Yeah, I guess it is pretty convoluted, and it does really require me to carefully define what I'm asking for. Really, I guess I'm not interested in the stuff that was published before the first crisis, even if it's technically canon, I'd like to encounter any flashbacks in publication order, and I don't super care about, say, the guest appearance Batman makes during Lord Morpheus/Dream's wake that has no bearing on his own story and couldn't possibly be placed anywhere in his timeline with any reliability. Where I get tripped up is that I do want to include the entire "Bat family," so Huntress, all of the Robins (did Spoiler ever have her own series? I can't even remember), Catwoman, Cassandra Cain (I think she's the Huntress at one point and Batgirl at another point), etc. and most lists for Batman don't seem to include them. I remember Cataclysm in particular was tricky to navigate without someone putting that list together for me. For example, I found one list on Reddit that omits the entire second act of Knightfall because Batman isn't really in it (it's really more of an Azrael and Nightwing story). Maybe the universe is giving me a sign that I should give up!
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Apr 19, 2019 20:14
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Bicyclops posted:Maybe the universe is giving me a sign that I should give up! Massive comic book reading projects are exhausting, anyway. As much as you might enjoy the good bits, there's inevitably several thousand consecutive pages of abject misery that will grind you to a halt. The easy solution, though is just to go a month at a time, follow story arcs through, and let yourself ignore whatever bad comics come up.
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Apr 20, 2019 01:30
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I was trying to read all of Spider-man, then I got to an issue where there was an entire page covered in Black Cat's thought bubbles and I just gave up.
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Apr 20, 2019 01:38
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Slide into vulpes dms
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Apr 20, 2019 01:40
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Random Stranger posted:Massive comic book reading projects are exhausting, anyway. As much as you might enjoy the good bits, there's inevitably several thousand consecutive pages of abject misery that will grind you to a halt. gently caress that. Do it!
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Apr 20, 2019 01:48
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Read characters who only have a single title throughout their history. Can I recommend Firestorm?
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Apr 20, 2019 01:49
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Madkal posted:Read characters who only have a single title throughout their history. Can I recommend Firestorm? Let's see... kinda like the Conway stories. Ostrander's run is weird and different but still kind of interesting. Early 2000's reboot is legit good. Haven't read New 52 Firestorm but at that point why not. And in the end it's only around 150 issues all together. So, yes. Read all of Firestorm.
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Apr 20, 2019 02:10
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Read Aztek. It's 10 issues of fun, weird 90's comics and a dozen or so pages strewn across 40 issues of awesome JLA comics. And Stephanie got THREE WHOLE issues, thank you very much...
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Apr 20, 2019 05:40
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I checked to see if I had written it down somewhere in my nested old hard drives and got really excited when I find a file named "BATMAN" but out turns out it was just a txt file that just said, I swear I am not making this up, "the Joker."
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Apr 20, 2019 13:10
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Random Stranger posted:Let's see... kinda like the Conway stories. Ostrander's run is weird and different but still kind of interesting. Early 2000's reboot is legit good. Haven't read New 52 Firestorm but at that point why not. And in the end it's only around 150 issues all together. I read like the first 2 arcs of the N52 series and that was some of the worst dreck I've ever read, and I've read some pretty bad comics. Bicyclops posted:I checked to see if I had written it down somewhere in my nested old hard drives and got really excited when I find a file named "BATMAN" but out turns out it was just a txt file that just said, I swear I am not making this up, "the Joker." Wow, past Bicyclops was kind of a genius TwoPair fucked around with this message at 15:27 on Apr 20, 2019 |
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Apr 20, 2019 13:24
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I missed out on New 52 Firestorm and looking it up, I see it was co-written by Ethan Van Sciver, so gently caress that guy.
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Apr 20, 2019 13:54
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Selachian posted:I missed out on New 52 Firestorm and looking it up, I see it was co-written by Ethan Van Sciver, so gently caress that guy. I had three trades of it and dropped them in a donation box when I remember he wrote them. I can't quite justify dumping my GL omnibus because he only drew a small portion of it overall.
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Apr 20, 2019 13:58
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Rhyno posted:I can't quite justify dumping my GL omnibus because he only drew a small portion of it overall. no wait he was massively influential and created several characters etc
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Apr 20, 2019 14:23
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Selachian posted:I missed out on New 52 Firestorm and looking it up, I see it was co-written by Ethan Van Sciver, so gently caress that guy. Then I take it back. I stand by the first three Firestorm series, but that's a toxic waste dump that doesn't deserve to be part of a reading project. I'm trying to think of a good "read all of X's comics" recommendation that's actually a reasonable project and won't make you hate yourself for doing it (like, say, reading every comic in the Clone Saga last month to use a totally random example) and it's hard. The challenge is has to be long enough to actually be a "project", short enough that you might reasonably have a chance of finishing, and varied enough to not just be reading someone's run. I've got it! Fourth World. Read all of the Fourth World material. You start with Kirby, get a graphic novel where he gives it his ending, and after that there's bad bits that are often mixed in with amazing bits. You can even supplement it easily with other crossovers and takes that are often good (the JLA story that tried to wrap up the Fourth World has Perez art, and then there's the story where even telling you what series it's in or the title of the story arc gives away the twist that it's actually all about the New Gods). And I don't mean bits where a New God shows up or Darkseid is the bad guy, if it's not a series headlined by a Fourth World character or a story arc featuring cosmic war between amazing Kirby concepts then it doesn't count. The best part of this is that for every John Byrne's New Gods there's a Walt Simonson's Orion so you'll always have something fantastic to look forward to as you muddle through a short but terrible run. So read all Fourth World comics.
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Apr 20, 2019 14:56
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Read all of Will Payton and Jack Knight Starman? Mostly just crosses into JSA.
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Apr 20, 2019 16:56
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Doom Patrol might not be bad barring, again, Byrne. The 60s series is gently absurdist fun, Morrison and Pollack and Way are outstanding, Giffen's run is charming, and everything else I've read (again, except Byrne), ranges from "that was fine," like Kupperberg's stuff, to "that was pretty neat," like John Arcudi's. Edit: For Marvel stuff, Thunderbolts has been remarkably consistent and even the "bad" runs have interesting stuff in them. The John Arcudi stint is brief, and only really suffers from being completely detached from what came before it, Andy Diggle and Daniel Way both have pretty forgettable runs that directly set-up much stronger runs, and Jim Zub's is actually pretty fun if you can get past the lovely art by Comicsgate reptile Jon Malin. How Wonderful! fucked around with this message at 17:04 on Apr 20, 2019 |
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Apr 20, 2019 16:56
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If you want to leave the superhero world, Hellblazer and Judge Dredd make great reading projects. Though definitely not short.
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Apr 20, 2019 17:25
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Read all of Conan. I’m sure it gets bad at some point in the 90s but the Marvel books from the 70s are super good, and when you get to Dark Horse it’s back to being super good.
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Apr 20, 2019 17:26
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For longish and varied runs I’d go for all the cosmic marvel stuff centred around Annihilation and Conquest.
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Apr 20, 2019 17:37
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Nu52 Firestorm is written by EVS and Gail Simone who...don't like each other anymore? It still sucked though. The Jason Rusch reboot stuff had a bit of a rough start mostly due to shoddy artwork but Midway a new creative crew took over and it really found it's footing. I wish someone would do something more with the character now, especially Jason, but he is pretty much relegated to background character or kidnap victim.
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Apr 20, 2019 18:06
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John Byrne's Doom Patrol is fantastic in that he said he was "fixing" everything that was broken. Then Gmo sent him a copy of a letter he received from Arnold Drake saying how Morrison was the first writer who ever got it right
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Apr 20, 2019 18:27
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