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Like seriously, if you get hewed at the gates in Rohan, you know someone is singing a song about you that manly men will weep to.
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Mar 15, 2019 04:50
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generally speaking, you can have a relatively non-unpleasant death or a badass death but you gotta pick
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Mar 17, 2019 00:12
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I guess you could get hit by lightning? Maybe while holding a sword aloft or something? The word "hewn" sort of conjures up a busted-open ribcage, it's a rather unpleasant word.
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Mar 18, 2019 04:00
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Hama (in the movie) also restrains that other guard, Gamling I think, from intervening when Aragorn and Co. start their rear end-beating sesh in the great hall. So I think it was meant to be assumed that Hama knew what he was doing when he let Gandalf in
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Mar 18, 2019 06:44
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Zippy the Bummer posted:Hama (in the movie) also restrains that other guard, Gamling I think, from intervening when Aragorn and Co. start their rear end-beating sesh in the great hall. So I think it was meant to be assumed that Hama knew what he was doing when he let Gandalf in He was a coward and a traitor.
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Mar 19, 2019 00:10
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He sucks at his job and Theoden demotes him to gofer. Later he suicides by orc and everyone remembers him fondly
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Mar 19, 2019 00:39
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skasion posted:He sucks at his job and Theoden demotes him to gofer. Later he suicides by orc and everyone remembers him fondly We'll, the Hobbits do, at least.
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Mar 19, 2019 00:42
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Theoden uses his corpse as a brickbat to fling at Saruman too
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Mar 19, 2019 00:49
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Heading into NYC today to see the Morgan Library exhibit. Anyone local been there already and/or want to meet up?
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Mar 30, 2019 14:03
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Update: had a great time. The place was packed, they let up groups of like ten every 15 minutes because even though the single room with the exhibit in it isn't very big, it takes a couple of hours to creep your way around it; every individual piece is just that dense and detailed and mainline nerdery. Fully half the people there were capable of reading Tengwar to some degree (which was pretty much essential for a significant chunk of the items on display). My favorite tidbit: on the hand-lettered title page for the Hobbit typescript that he submitted for publication, he forgot to put his name on it and someone had to scribble it on there for him. I can only pathetically aspire to be as humble and self-deprecating as he was
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Mar 30, 2019 22:54
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John Garth's Tolkien and the Great War is on sale on kindle today for 2USD for anyone interested. I haven't read it myself so I can't say how it is, but I'm sure at least a couple people here will want to pick it up. https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00D5FI7GG/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_tkin_p1_i0
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Apr 19, 2019 11:18
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Occasionally it over-eggs the pudding just slightly, but it's a very good and insightful book, and is worth buying just for the anecdote about the missed encounter with another conlang nerd...
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Apr 19, 2019 18:47
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What happens if you over egg a pudding?
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Apr 20, 2019 21:01
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Pawg From Produce posted:What happens if you over egg a pudding? You get mousse.
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Apr 21, 2019 01:30
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Good question on the recent lord of the rings podcast: Paraphrasing: if Gandalf was at the Ford right before frodo almost turned into a wraith, how would Gandalf appear to Frodo ? Like Glorfindal or like a “normal” man?
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Apr 22, 2019 18:28
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euphronius posted:Good question on the recent lord of the rings podcast: I would expect him to be like Glorfindel but more so, like Frodo should barely be able to look at him.
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Apr 22, 2019 19:18
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That is an interesting question. I think I’d expect him to look more like a man (i.e. a gray shadow) than one of the great Noldor. Gandalf’s power and true nature are hidden, unlike the elves who are extremely open about being kickin’ rad spiritual beasts. The Nazgul also are of hidden nature, but the ring can of course reveal their true shape. However, I’m not entirely sure that the power of the ring could pierce Gandalf’s disguise as an old dude. Sauron himself would probably be able to tell what he is, having had firsthand experience of Saruman’s mind, but I don’t think anyone else really understands Gandalf’s true nature except the elves to whom he made it clear - Cirdan and the other ringbearers. Even Denethor who is probably the most spiritually perceptive man in the story doesn’t seem entirely clear on what he is. He isn’t just a Maia wearing a human shape that he can put off at any time, he is for all practical purposes human (at least before he dies). When someone thinks that they are reminded of Gandalf by another character, it tends to be men that remind them of him — Aragorn or Faramir, not the high-elves. One thing that would stand out to Frodo’s vision at that point is the Ring of Fire. He could definitely see that.
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Apr 22, 2019 19:23
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It’s not a disguise. He actually is an old man. Which makes me also think he’d appear muted and not like Glorfindal. Why couldn’t Frodo see the fire ring at any time ?
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Apr 22, 2019 19:25
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Because Gandalf is hiding it.
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Apr 22, 2019 19:29
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euphronius posted:It’s not a disguise. He actually is an old man. Which makes me also think he’s appear muted and not like Glorfindal. Frodo’s spiritual perceptions don’t remain at the same elevated level after he is healed. His senses are permanently affected — he can see better in the dark, as he notices in Moria, but he is also surprisingly prone to spells of blindness, like in the climb from the Emyn Muil and again before Minas Morgul. But he doesn’t see all the high-elves, or even Glorf himself, as shining shapes of light all the time. When he sees the Witchking leading his army, he doesn’t see the “pale king” of Weathertop, but a great crowned rider in black, just like everyone else sees at Minas Tirith. He immediately makes the connection between the two, but his sight on that occasion is normal. And normal sight isn’t enough to reveal the Ring of Fire, because Gandalf wasn’t “wearing it openly” or whatever, it was hidden behind whatever smokescreen keeps his natural power in check.
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Apr 22, 2019 19:31
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Then didn’t the wraiths see Gandalfs ring when they attacked him on Weathertop? Or is it a combination of Frodo being almost a ghost plus in possession of the master ring?
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Apr 22, 2019 19:34
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euphronius posted:Good question on the recent lord of the rings podcast: Yeah, this is a good question. There's only one point where Frodo wears the ring and perceives Gandalf, at Amon Hen, and it tells us nothing: quote:Then at last his gaze was held: wall upon wall, battlement upon battlement, black, immeasurably strong, mountain of iron, gate of steel, tower of adamant, he saw it: Barad-dûr, Fortress of Sauron. All hope left him. Of course at that point it's Gandalf the White so no dice. I suspect he would perceive Gandalf the Grey as a normal human just like Aragorn, but that he *would* see Narya while wearing the One; the text is fairly explicit that the subsidiary rings could not remain concealed before the power of the One Ring. Gandalf the White would likely shine like a beacon.
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Apr 22, 2019 19:35
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euphronius posted:Then didn’t the wraiths see Gandalfs ring when they attacked him on Weathertop? Frodo has the one ring, which should allow him to see any of the other rings despite any types of disguise. I think Frodo would see Gandalf the Grey as a man with a blazing ring and Gandalf the White as much more Glorfindel-like, if not moreso.
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Apr 22, 2019 19:40
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The Nine aren’t wearing their rings at Weathertop, or 1) they’d be completely invisible instead of looking like empty clothing, and 2) Frodo would see their rings when he sees them. I’m not convinced that they could see Gandalf’s ring unless he showed it to them. Just because they’re freaky wraiths doesn’t give them power over the other rings of power. Even Frodo, with the One in his possession, can’t see Nenya on Galadriel’s hand until after he looks in the Mirror. Whereas Sam can’t see it at all even after she points it out.
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Apr 22, 2019 19:40
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skasion posted:The Nine aren’t wearing their rings at Weathertop, or 1) they’d be completely invisible instead of looking like empty clothing, and 2) Frodo would see their rings when he sees them. I’m not convinced that they could see Gandalf’s ring unless he showed it to them. Just because they’re freaky wraiths doesn’t give them power over the other rings of power. Even Frodo, with the One in his possession, can’t see Nenya on Galadriel’s hand until after he looks in the Mirror. Whereas Sam can’t see it at all even after she points it out. Huh, that's right, there is no description of the rings on the hands of the wraiths. That would have been a weird thing for Tolkien to leave out.
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Apr 22, 2019 19:52
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skasion posted:The Nine aren’t wearing their rings at Weathertop, or 1) they’d be completely invisible instead of looking like empty clothing When Sauron wore the Ring, he wasn't invisible because he had greater control over it. I would speculate that the Nine have a similar level of control over their rings, at least to the extent that they can chose to be invisible or not. Right?
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Apr 22, 2019 19:56
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skasion posted:The Nine aren’t wearing their rings at Weathertop, or 1) they’d be completely invisible instead of looking like empty clothing, and 2) Frodo would see their rings when he sees them. I’m not convinced that they could see Gandalf’s ring unless he showed it to them. Just because they’re freaky wraiths doesn’t give them power over the other rings of power. Even Frodo, with the One in his possession, can’t see Nenya on Galadriel’s hand until after he looks in the Mirror. Whereas Sam can’t see it at all even after she points it out. Yeah, it's clear somewhere in the text that Sauron actually holds the Nine directly, the wraiths don't have them any more. Once you're completely in thrall to a lesser Ring, Sauron takes your ring and holds it, that's how he controls you. Frodo can't see Nenya until she uses the Mirror but in that instance Frodo wasn't actively wearing the One. Even then, once she uses her power, he detects it. So that actually settles the issue because if Gandalf had been on Weathertop he totally would have thrown some of the hot stuff at the Nine and then Frodo would've seen the ring.
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Apr 22, 2019 19:59
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Pham Nuwen posted:When Sauron wore the Ring, he wasn't invisible because he had greater control over it. I would speculate that the Nine have a similar level of control over their rings, at least to the extent that they can chose to be invisible or not. Right? I don’t know if I’d describe the Nazgul as “in control” of their rings. More the other way around if anything — Elrond (iirc) at the council sums it up with the pleasantly syntactically ambiguous statement “the Nine [Rings] the Nazgul keep”. I think they’re invisible because they wore their rings for so long they faded away, but I’m not aware of any time they actually wear their rings during the events of the book. I don’t think they can choose to be visible. Their clothes are visible (but only some of their clothes — Frodo sees them on Weathertop as wearing clothes that are not in evidence in the mundane world — I guess they’re spiritual clothes or something) but they seem to be stuck invisible.
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Apr 22, 2019 20:04
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There's some letter where Tolkien says that Sauron took their rings back once they were utterly enslaved but I don't think the issue is addressed in the text of lotr
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Apr 22, 2019 20:23
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cheetah7071 posted:There's some letter where Tolkien says that Sauron took their rings back once they were utterly enslaved but I don't think the issue is addressed in the text of lotr Gandalf tells Frodo quote:The Nine he has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed. The Three are hidden still. The way he talks about the Seven being destroyed makes me think Gandalf is referring to the rings themselves, as opposed to their bearers, here. But this is also right in the beginning, before the ringwraiths are actually abroad (or before Gandalf knows they are), which makes it a bit ambiguous. It could easily be read either way.
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Apr 22, 2019 21:11
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I always thought Sauron held the nine rings himself. Though that does beg the question of why he doesn't distribute the nine rings again and create a new set of Nazgul. But maybe he needs the one in his possession to properly corrupt men like that. Or maybe he can only bind one man at a time per ring like that.
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Apr 22, 2019 21:46
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skasion posted:I don’t know if I’d describe the Nazgul as “in control” of their rings. More the other way around if anything — Elrond (iirc) at the council sums it up with the pleasantly syntactically ambiguous statement “the Nine [Rings] the Nazgul keep”. I think they’re invisible because they wore their rings for so long they faded away, but I’m not aware of any time they actually wear their rings during the events of the book. I don’t think they can choose to be visible. Their clothes are visible (but only some of their clothes — Frodo sees them on Weathertop as wearing clothes that are not in evidence in the mundane world — I guess they’re spiritual clothes or something) but they seem to be stuck invisible. IIRC when characters are perceiving the supernatural appearances of others they often perceive each individual as wearing clothes that indicates their social station and spiritual power, though I can’t think of any other concrete examples off hand. When Frodo looks at the Nazgul he sees them as what they used to be and what they are, wearing great crowns and fancy clothes and the like. I think something related happens in the Barrowdowns when the hobbits are kidnapped and they wake up dressed in the armor and jewels of the dead inhabitants.
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Apr 22, 2019 21:51
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Frodo sees Aragorn as a younger man robed in white on Cerin Amroth, though what’s happening there is more Frodo seeing into the actual past than anything else.
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Apr 22, 2019 21:59
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That's interesting- if the Nazgul aren't actually in possession of their rings, does that mean they are in permanent "Gollum-mode," crippled by their desire for their rings? Or does that only apply to the One?
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Apr 22, 2019 22:54
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Well, Gollum is much more rebellious than the wraiths. He only ever serves Sauron under serious duress, and openly abominates him — see his insistence that he escaped Mordor on his own, although we know that really Sauron turned him loose. Sauron has no ultimate hold over Gollum because there’s nothing he can give that Gollum wants. I see the Nazgul, the Mouth etc as figures whose original wills, whatever they were, have been totally subsumed by that of Sauron. At the end the wraiths fly directly into an erupting volcano, which is about as much confirmation as you can get that they’ll do literally anything for him. I’m sure they desired their rings in the beginning — it’s immortality in a can! But I don’t know whether they even have desires of their own at all anymore, apart from the desire to serve their master.
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Apr 22, 2019 23:15
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One thing that really struck me about my recent re-read is that nowhere in the text does it seem to say that Sauron gained anything from the ring other than the ability to dominate other rings and ringbearers. The primary reason he seems to want it back is just to prevent other people from using it (and to make it easier to conquer the ring-protected elven strongholds)
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Apr 22, 2019 23:22
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When he had it the first time he basically smashed the poo poo out of his region of Middle-earth and came very close to putting all the elves east of the sea under his sway. And he would have gotten away with it too if it weren’t for those meddling supermen. Meanwhile after losing it, he spends 3000 years achieving shockingly little that we know of. Honestly I’d expect a lot better from a state ruled absolutely by one superpowered guy for that long. Maybe the ring contained the part of his power that involved knowing how to manufacture heavy artillery.
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Apr 23, 2019 00:24
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It's a lesson that we learn in Dark Souls and many other games: true power comes from fashion. He probably looked really drat good with that ring.
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Apr 23, 2019 00:32
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skasion posted:Well, Gollum is much more rebellious than the wraiths. He only ever serves Sauron under serious duress, and openly abominates him — see his insistence that he escaped Mordor on his own, although we know that really Sauron turned him loose. Sauron has no ultimate hold over Gollum because there’s nothing he can give that Gollum wants. It's implied Sauron would have a hold on Gollum if he ever recovered the One Ring. It's stated a few times iirc that Sauron having the Ring would be very bad for Gollum and I assume that's for more reasons than just Gollum being upset that his precious is in Sauron's hands. I imagine that Sauron would be able to dominate the wills of any former ring bearer.
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Apr 23, 2019 01:09
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Ginette Reno posted:It's implied Sauron would have a hold on Gollum if he ever recovered the One Ring. It's stated a few times iirc that Sauron having the Ring would be very bad for Gollum and I assume that's for more reasons than just Gollum being upset that his precious is in Sauron's hands. Absolutely, but there’s no upside for Gollum, is my point. His will is emphatically separate from the Lord’s and he is constantly, manically seeking to assert it. That’s what makes him different from the Nazgul. They seem to be, if not blithe slaves, then at least totally docile.
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Apr 23, 2019 01:15
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