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Tekopo posted:Also Cessna although I'm not involved with miniature wargaming, it always felt to me that miniature wargaming seemed to attract more fascists, or at least them being more visible, than in board wargaming. I think the visibility aspect is related to the differences of dominant game types. Board wargaming seems to focus a lot more on the historical, and although you can get the weird fascists, most folks I know that play board wargames are interested in the events around the games and are willing to play other sides. Of course, miniatures themselves are a part of the visibility - they are inherently visible physical objects and, because the modern fash trends are tied hand-in-hand with getting reactions from people, you see a lot more of jackasses painting iron crosses on stuff. There’s also the mechanical difference between board wargaming, which takes into account supply lines, support, and the mechanics of war itself, versus miniature wargaming, which is often just the exciting action-y bits. The glorification of war and bloodshed is a lot easier when the only aspect you are meaningfully interacting with is combat - the stuff that’s zoomed in, allowing space for ‘heroic narratives’ and the mythologizing of warriors over the logistics and “boring stuff”. Alternate theory is that when 40k, the very visible miniature wargame, lost its satirical edge, it encouraged more people to sculpt in the style and produce unironic fascist-glorifying miniatures.
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Apr 23, 2019 21:25
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Tekopo posted:Also Cessna although I'm not involved with miniature wargaming, it always felt to me that miniature wargaming seemed to attract more fascists, or at least them being more visible, than in board wargaming. I am totally pulling this out of my rear end and speculating here, but I think that might be because miniature wargaming requires more commitment. I buy a hex-and counter wargame. I read the rules, find an opponent, punch out the counters, set up the game, and start playing. I buy a miniatures wargame. I read the rules, find an opponent, spend a few hundred dollars on an army, spend dozens of hours researching paint schemes, then put hundreds of hours into cleaning, painting, and basing an army, set up the game, and start playing. I think if you're going to spend a hundred or so hours into painting toy Nazis you might not be doing it casually. That said, yes, I do have 15mm scale Germans. They're an "opfor" army for my Soviets. They don't have little swastika flags or anything, they're just generic bad-guys I can put on the table in case the person I want to play against only has Allied/Soviet WWII armies. My group tends to do this - paint armies in pairs. If you want to play a game with Celts also paint some Romans, if you want to play a game with 1805 Austrians also paint 1805 French, etc. There's nothing worse than buying, building, and painting an army only to find out no one you know has an opponent army to match it. Tekopo posted:I haven't had the chance to meet anyone that was and out and out wehraboo while playing board wargames, even with strangers from the internet. I wish I was as lucky. They're out there. Tekopo posted:I'm glad that I managed to find a group of people that are more to the left and still enjoy wargames. Same, I'd probably quit the hobby if I hadn't.
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Apr 23, 2019 21:25
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Tekopo posted:I do feel there have been improvements, and this is mostly from the Russian archives finally being open and thus allowing a much more nuanced discussion of the eastern front. Agreed. Also:  
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Apr 23, 2019 21:31
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Harold McNeill facts! The OP didn't seem to know much about Magic and I know too much so I'm here to help! His last new artist credits for Magic: The Gathering are from the 1997 set Tempest. He illustrated six cards, the Circle of Protection cycle.  The last time a card was printed with his art was in 2006, with the set Time Spiral's side-feature Timeshifted, which reprinted cards from Magic's history basically as-is. This included Enduring Renewal.  Unless you count the digital-only Magic: The Gathering Online set Masters Edition III from 2009. That reused the aforementioned Lightning Blow art.  He did 27 pieces for them total, and no matter how you count it, it's been over 20 years since Wizards of the Coast commissioned a new piece from him and over a decade since they last reused art of his, so they've definitely cut ties with McNeill. Fun facts: He illustrated four cards for the Africa-themed Mirage block. How racist they are or how far they go to avoid depicting anything is anyone's guess. Cards on Wizard's own database, Gatherer, have unique multiverse ID numbers. As a random example, Samite Elder has the ID 22962. Invoke Prejudice is #1488.
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Apr 23, 2019 21:35
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Talking about miniature wargames, there's a system out there that centers around battles in the fictitious country of Bongolesia. Bongolesia is chock-full of gross African stereotypes, which were defended in the following way by the creator of the scenario:quote:Wow... Yeah that's right, it's satire, like Mel Brooks. I mean, apart from the fact that Bongolesia's name is derived from a really racist way to refer to African countries, and a phrase that's often used by extremely racist right-wing people in the UK...
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Apr 23, 2019 21:51
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I have ASL Starter Kit #1 literally in the mail as of two hours ago and while I know there's a pretty huge wargaming scene within an hour of here (First Minnesota Historical Wargame Society) I'm suddenly full of trepidation about actually trying to play it with people instead of just soloing stuff in my garage.  Seriously, great thread so far though.
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Apr 23, 2019 22:01
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...wait. Wait. Is he saying he can't be racist because he was too nice, as an accurate depiction of anywhere in Africa would be roasted off the internet? I can't think how else to interpret "If Bongolesia was truly like any of those places, it wouldn't have lasted six months on the net, let alone six years"
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Apr 23, 2019 22:04
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Mors Rattus posted:...wait. quote:The People and The Country as a whole I remember posting about this in the old Grogs.txt thread.
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Apr 23, 2019 22:06
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yeah i'm saying he literally looks at the racist poo poo he squatted out and is claiming it's nicer than the actuality of Africa, comma, a real place populated by real humans
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Apr 23, 2019 22:09
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Mors Rattus posted:yeah i'm saying he literally looks at the racist poo poo he squatted out and is claiming it's nicer than the actuality of Africa, comma, a real place populated by real humans
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Apr 23, 2019 22:10
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I infrequently attend minis wargames conventions and I agree that anyone with significant nazi detailing on their WW 2 army is likely fash. The amount of advantages that germans had in Flames of War attracted a lot of players, but SS weren’t that great of a list, so taking them was probably suspect. The disadvantages russians had were extremely dumb, but it was fun to have 3x as much stuff as others. I haven’t played that game in 9-10 years though so before people got more open about it. I remember a “What if we handled benghazi better” event listing from 2016 that was pretty  I think American Civil War is worse, plenty of explicit confederate pride and “heritage not hate” types. Historical minis (at least the conventions) seems to be like 70% nerds and 30% old military types, and it’s kind of an expensive hobby so there’s already a slant rightward. Good thread
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Apr 23, 2019 22:18
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Fellis posted:I think American Civil War is worse, plenty of explicit confederate pride and “heritage not hate” types. Historical minis (at least the conventions) seems to be like 70% nerds and 30% old military types, and it’s kind of an expensive hobby so there’s already a slant rightward. There's an unsurprising amount of that at Civil War reenactments as well, at least what I can recall from the mid-late 90's. Back on topic, I live perilously close to A Store of Fire and Dice, which got banned by WotC after they altered the player conduct sheet "ironically". The store has kek flags and Pepe poo poo in it, so there's that, too. I got excited when I saw a new store had opened, only to find out that the owner is a wehraboo, so that one's off the list as well. quote:Good thread ^^^
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Apr 23, 2019 23:41
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actually3raccoons posted:The store has kek flags and Pepe poo poo in it, so there's that, too. what the gently caress.
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Apr 23, 2019 23:50
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oh right i remember that one blowing up for a few days, did they just get banned from organized play/mtg event stuff, or can they not buy magic cards directly now?
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Apr 23, 2019 23:54
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Jesus christ.
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Apr 24, 2019 00:09
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Speaking of Privateer/Warmahordes and the fash-adjacent, have they stopped giving Larry "Sad Puppy" Correia work yet?
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Apr 24, 2019 00:20
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Mors Rattus posted:oh right i remember that one blowing up for a few days, did they just get banned from organized play/mtg event stuff, or can they not buy magic cards directly now? Last I heard they were totally banned, but I'm pretty sure the other local stores were buying extra and selling it to him for unsanctioned tournaments. It's not just that, though. He bragged about violating the D&D AL rules in the coordinator FB group that Wizards runs, then did this and cried victim, while proudly claiming to have edited the page himself on his personal Twitter account. I think I took a screenshot, it's definitely not on his account now. Hambly started a GoFundMe for the owner, if that puts his choadliness in perspective.
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Apr 24, 2019 00:20
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actually3raccoons posted:Last I heard they were totally banned, but I'm pretty sure the other local stores were buying extra and selling it to him for unsanctioned tournaments. Shame. I remember this blowing up in the MTG thread and after the paltry Hambly fundraising thought it would've closed by now.
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Apr 24, 2019 01:58
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Ok I got a question, it fits the thread but it's kinda a hosed up question. Mostly because I really really don't want it to be true. But are Orkz meant to Africans?
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Apr 24, 2019 02:06
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...no?
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Apr 24, 2019 02:12
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BoneMonkey posted:Ok I got a question, it fits the thread but it's kinda a hosed up question. Mostly because I really really don't want it to be true. Orkz are soccer hooligans.
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Apr 24, 2019 02:13
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Good.
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Apr 24, 2019 02:14
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Loomer posted:Orkz are soccer hooligans. Okay this makes a lot of sense
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Apr 24, 2019 02:15
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BoneMonkey posted:Okay this makes a lot of sense Ghaghzull Mag Uruk Thraka is apocryphally Margaret Thatcher.
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Apr 24, 2019 02:21
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Orks are cockney hooligans. Stormboyz used to be a parody of fash punks. 
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Apr 24, 2019 02:31
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All of 40k began as Thatcher-era unsubtle satire of English society, basically.
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Apr 24, 2019 02:31
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BoneMonkey posted:Ok I got a question, it fits the thread but it's kinda a hosed up question. Mostly because I really really don't want it to be true. There have been some uncomfortable bits in the past where GW has played up the Praetorian IG regiments against irks and leaned a bit too heavily on the Zulu/Rorkes Drift comparison imo
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Apr 24, 2019 02:33
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BoneMonkey posted:Ok I got a question, it fits the thread but it's kinda a hosed up question. Mostly because I really really don't want it to be true. uh, very early RT-era orks sometimes had elements of ww1 germans re-imagined as brutish huns as per that old stereotype - they sometimes had pickelhaubes, hunic hats, their vehicles were suffixed with -wagon (or even wagen), they used stikk bombs (which was an alternate slang for potato mashers), orks that bothered with uniforms back then had stuff that looked like imperial german stuff, etc, etc, etc they've changed a lot since then - nowadays they seem more like football hooligans
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Apr 24, 2019 02:37
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hard counter posted:uh, very early RT-era orks sometimes had elements of ww1 germans re-imagined as brutish huns as per that old stereotype - they sometimes had pickelhaubes, hunic hats, their vehicles were suffixed with -wagon (or even wagen), they used stikk bombs (which was an alternate slang for potato mashers), orks that bothered with uniforms back then had stuff that looked like imperial german stuff, etc, etc, etc That was one specific group of orks (the stormboyz) who were described as going through their rebellious teenage phase. It's handled pretty well to make fun of them for being idiots.
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Apr 24, 2019 02:49
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Solemn Sloth posted:There have been some uncomfortable bits in the past where GW has played up the Praetorian IG regiments against irks and leaned a bit too heavily on the Zulu/Rorkes Drift comparison imo No lie, the moment some Ham starts wanking on how much they love the Praetorians and/or Big Toof River the back of my hands start to itch something fierce. Especially when they always, always start loving quoting Zulu. Funny thing, GW recently introduced a new Guard regiment with a similar pith-helmet aesthetic in the newest book. There's a few changes to make them look a bit more fantastical compared to the Literally British Empire In Space Praetorians, and their fluff takes a Oldhammer satirical jab at them. They're a bunch of rich kids who get given cushy assignments and fancy equipment, that tend to take heavy casualties the moment they get thrown into a situation that the more prole regiments face on a regular basis. Praetorian fans loving haaaaaate them.
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Apr 24, 2019 02:49
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vaguely reminded of playing Godlike, bringing a new player into the group, and the awkward conversation we had to have when he turned out to be really into the Nazis. dude had a complete breakdown when he was informed that he was no longer welcome.
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Apr 24, 2019 03:36
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SteelMentor posted:No lie, the moment some Ham starts wanking on how much they love the Praetorians and/or Big Toof River the back of my hands start to itch something fierce. Especially when they always, always start loving quoting Zulu. I really love the aesthetic of praetorians, but fuuuuuck actually collecting them because of all those gross associations that are inseparable from the pith helmet red coat aesthetic
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Apr 24, 2019 03:44
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Booley posted:That was one specific group of orks (the stormboyz) who were described as going through their rebellious teenage phase. It's handled pretty well to make fun of them for being idiots. Orks is best.
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Apr 24, 2019 04:03
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Solemn Sloth posted:I really love the aesthetic of praetorians, but fuuuuuck actually collecting them because of all those gross associations that are inseparable from the pith helmet red coat aesthetic I think if you play them it’s up to you how you do it. I’ve got a metal praetorian army here that I wouldn’t mind playing, but I’m a dumb idiot socialist greens voter so people know I don’t buy into it beyond ‘looks cool’.
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Apr 24, 2019 04:08
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Yeast posted:I think if you play them it’s up to you how you do it. This might need to go on a shirt.
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Apr 24, 2019 06:18
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I'm nothing if not self aware.
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Apr 24, 2019 06:31
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Zark the Damned posted:Use the FW Female Stormcast heads, they're about the correct size and are official GW parts. I was just wondering today if there were some WHF heads I could use for characters. This is a cool and good idea and I'm doing it.
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Apr 24, 2019 07:32
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Booley posted:That was one specific group of orks (the stormboyz) who were described as going through their rebellious teenage phase. It's handled pretty well to make fun of them for being idiots. the portrayal of very early orks was generally pretty good but in all honesty imho there were a couple missteps along the way with the orks-(sometimes)-as-a-german-hun motif - i think the ork runes for orky and family from their old flavor book would make people uncomfortable in modern times for e.g.  even tho it makes sense from a satirical perspective to use orks, an insanely coarse and violent people who are still just laughably piggish goofballs underneath it all, to lampoon ideas worthy of lampooning.. i'm still glad they've developed in another direction; i prefer them as entertaining goofballs rather than fully allegorical goofballs
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Apr 24, 2019 07:48
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SteelMentor posted:No lie, the moment some Ham starts wanking on how much they love the Praetorians and/or Big Toof River the back of my hands start to itch something fierce. Especially when they always, always start loving quoting Zulu. I thought the Praetorians lost at Big Toof River? quote:Funny thing, GW recently introduced a new Guard regiment with a similar pith-helmet aesthetic in the newest book. There's a few changes to make them look a bit more fantastical compared to the Literally British Empire In Space Praetorians, and their fluff takes a Oldhammer satirical jab at them. They're a bunch of rich kids who get given cushy assignments and fancy equipment, that tend to take heavy casualties the moment they get thrown into a situation that the more prole regiments face on a regular basis. Which book is this and what regiment was it?
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Apr 24, 2019 08:33
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Comstar posted:I thought the Praetorians lost at Big Toof River? They did! The diorama is called 'Massacre at Big Toof River'. The Praetorian 24th get completely wiped out.
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Apr 24, 2019 08:38
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