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Bell_ posted:This update will probably remain one of my favorites even after the story is finished. Same. The drawings aren't bombastic like the Siege of Yr, but this one is in that company all the same.
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Apr 24, 2019 22:19
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I like how the dudes in the back devolved to just duking it out with fists. Not even sharp rocks
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Apr 24, 2019 22:33
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A Wizard of Goatse posted:Maya wasn't such an absolute disaster of a person going in, which has both kept her from fully committing to Cutting and allowed her to focus on anything besides that. We've seen her fight, it's impressive but it's no 'effortlessly destroying a thousand enemies at once, while naked' We haven't seen anything to prove this. Maya certainly got powerful enough to claim one of the 7 keys, and we've seen her battle an angel granted the power of Metatron himself, win by slicing it in half in one blow, and survive the resulting explosion (barely, but still). We don't really yet know the upper limits of her power compared to Meti or Incubus, and the circumstances by which she lost the key. Or the circumstances in which Incubus killed Meti. Mr. Lobe posted:he was used by her as an instrument and an object lesson for another pupil. So Maya thinks, anyway. We don't really know Meti's true intentions for Incubus. Clearly she wasn't very forthright with either pupil. Speculation: maybe one of the reasons Maya gave up the key is that she primarily sees herself as a protector, using her power to defend others, and with a key she didn't see a path other than destruction when wielding a key. Look how she acts in every fight - protecting the noodle stand, making sure Allison is clear before killing Juggernaut's false body, throwing the little girls behind her instinctively when facing her again, and now here being aghast at a rat's death and being unable to stop it. Clearly she learned from this lesson that the best defense is a good offense. Rotten Red Rod fucked around with this message at 23:19 on Apr 24, 2019 |
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Apr 24, 2019 23:12
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Maya is Royalty because she doesn't give a gently caress about any of that poo poo If you want things you own yourself twice. First because you have a weakness, and second because you're admitting you don't already have it. The trick to the whole thing is that if you want something and you don't take it, you own yourself - but you shouldn't want things casually. You only actually want something if you're going to do anything to get it, and that person will already have it. Having the key wasn't something she wanted, so she walked away from it. He wanted the key, but now he has to constantly keep it. He can't focus his will in the blade of want in a singular cutting motion because he's forced at all times to guard the thing he wants. He has the key but it's not actually his. If he had it, he wouldn't have to struggle to keep it, to concern himself with it, and so on. Maya realized that wanting something you can't realize in a singular instant through a pure act of will is dumb, and that's Meti's lesson. All that soaking in the blood of your enemies poo poo isn't because Meti wants to do killing, it's just that she's an incredible badass because she realizes that in the very moment she can simply Cut. If you're caught up in your poo poo, you can't Cut. Royalty is a continuous cutting motion. A cutting motion doesn't dwell on the thing. Maya cut through the key. She's royalty. She used the blade of want, then cut through that thing. Incubus stopped the cutting motion. He's hanging out in the key of power demiurge zone. He's effectively sheathed his sword in "winning." Maya kept cutting right on through that poo poo. She's Royalty.
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Apr 24, 2019 23:31
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To me, the lesson isn't "you should've acted faster if your wanted it," it's "you didn't really want it." Incubus didn't want it either, but he hosed up this lesson because he did a thing. He learned "act immediately without hesitation if you want to win" but he didn't learn "you don't really want to win if you don't act immediately without hesitation" and that's the thing, to me, I think. I fuckin love the Maya and Meti stuff way more than the main cast I'm not gonna lie
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Apr 24, 2019 23:36
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Interesting analysis, especially if you compare Incubus and Maya - by this measure, during their training, Incubus was closer to royalty because he was unencumbered by anything but killing, while Maya was loaded down with baggage she needed to work through. Now, though, it's flipped - Incubus is stuck in a blood swamp tending to starving kings, using his sword more as a cane than a weapon, while Maya... Cuts. Paramemetic posted:To me, the lesson isn't "you should've acted faster if your wanted it," it's "you didn't really want it." Yeah, but they both apparently think they learned the correct lesson that Meti intended. So we have 2 unreliable narrators about Meti's intentions! Paramemetic posted:
Maya is far and away my favorite character and I think she's stealthily kind of the main character, honestly. Not that I don't still REALLY love the main cast. Rotten Red Rod fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Apr 24, 2019 |
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Apr 24, 2019 23:38
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After I finished this page, I literally said aloud "Holy poo poo. Meti owns." Like, we've known that for ages, ever since her sword manual was first quoted, but this page is A+ good.Rotten Red Rod posted:Maya is far and away my favorite character and I think she's stealthily kind of the main character, honestly. Not that I don't still REALLY love the main cast.
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Apr 25, 2019 00:08
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I just realized Incubus has literally been using his sword as a crutch 
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Apr 25, 2019 00:18
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Rotten Red Rod posted:Yeah, but they both apparently think they learned the correct lesson that Meti intended. So we have 2 unreliable narrators about Meti's intentions! Maybe her intention was to not actually teach anyone what she knew about the sword
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Apr 25, 2019 00:34
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meti's manual is strong evidence in favor of maya being her actual student as she said at the very start, only an extraordinary idiot would want to learn under her, and incubus' slavering rush to become her student probably set off all sorts of alarm bells that maya in her hesitance did not. so she decided to put him to use maya didn't yet recognize the stench of bloodlust, but meti knew better
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Apr 25, 2019 00:43
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Maya would probably have killed 6 Juggernaut Star if she'd known what to cut. As is she survived a nuclear explosion at close range, and put a dent in a character that the author has rated as one of the strongest beings in the multiverse (Jagganoth = 1 Goku, 6 Juggs = .75 Gokus). And that's while being a dissipated, drunk, mendicant knight.
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Apr 25, 2019 00:54
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I think the key part of the lesson was that no matter the outcome, there was no reality where something wasn't going to die by the sword.
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Apr 25, 2019 01:02
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What's the source on Jagganoth being measured at 1000 milligokus?
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Apr 25, 2019 01:04
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Oxxidation posted:meti's manual is strong evidence in favor of maya being her actual student Meti also specifically referred to having a single, female student when she wrote that. Since Maya became her student after Incubus, he either left then came back to kill Meti, or she never thought of him as a student at all. Or it was retconned and the old entry isn't canon anymore, but this seems like something that'd have been planned ahead.
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Apr 25, 2019 01:21
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Bongo Bill posted:What's the source on Jagganoth being measured at 1000 milligokus? Quote of Operant here. habeasdorkus fucked around with this message at 02:03 on Apr 25, 2019 |
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Apr 25, 2019 01:55
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How royal is the Carolina Reaper eating contest described towards the end of this article? I'd say furious dumbassing your way through 2m scoville unit peppers is pretty loving royal.quote:"I’ve got to start meditating here in a second, kind of separate mind and body, because the ordeal we’re going to go through here in a few minutes is nothing short of self-immolation,” Foster says. “I mean, literally, you’re setting yourself on fire at a level that is hard to describe.” habeasdorkus fucked around with this message at 02:50 on Apr 25, 2019 |
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Apr 25, 2019 02:46
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Meti is basically presenting her students with a question with two answers. Incubus has the "right" answer and Maya has the "wrong" one, but what Meti actually wants is to be presented with a third answer that's better than any of the ones she's actually come up with because she really wishes there was one.
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Apr 25, 2019 02:49
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Paramemetic posted:Maya is Royalty because she doesn't give a gently caress about any of that poo poo... habeasdorkus posted:How royal is the Carolina Reaper eating contest described towards the end of this article? I'd say furious dumbassing your way through 2m scoville unit peppers is pretty loving royal.
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Apr 25, 2019 02:53
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Rotten Red Rod posted:Yeah, but they both apparently think they learned the correct lesson that Meti intended. So we have 2 unreliable narrators about Meti's intentions! When I was a kid I did martial arts. I had another kid slightly older than me, who was a little heavier and slower but about my height. One day coach took me aside and taught me all about getting people to drop their guard so you can go high on them, do a little knee pop and drop an overhand right over their guard, poo poo like this. At the same time, he took my friend aside and told him about how guys will do exactly that thing, and how you should go low and try to counter it. Then as the evening wound down it came time to spar. We had an incredible fight, both of us trying this new technique poo poo coach had told us without the other knowing. Later we talked about it and found out what happened, so we called coach out on it. He just wanted to see what it looked like. He didn't want either of us to win or anything, he just wanted to see a good fight. That's Meti right now lmao Dead Reckoning posted:Maya clearly wants something she hasn't achieved yet though, otherwise she wouldn't be running her rear end around creation chasing Allison. I mean, her name is "Murder the Gods and Topple their Thrones" so yeah but it's entirely possible she's not doing that because she wants to, she's just doing it. The want will only come for a moment. Paramemetic fucked around with this message at 03:09 on Apr 25, 2019 |
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Apr 25, 2019 03:07
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Rand Brittain posted:Meti is basically presenting her students with a question with two answers. Incubus has the "right" answer and Maya has the "wrong" one, but what Meti actually wants is to be presented with a third answer that's better than any of the ones she's actually come up with because she really wishes there was one. The lesson was to recognize that there are things you want to protect and to be just as prepared to do so as the killers are prepared to kill. Mayas story is, fittingly, a counterpoint to the one Incubus told Allison: don't be those goddamn monks (Maya then, still passive), but don't be like Solomon David either (Incubus always, bloodthirsty and all about winning).
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Apr 25, 2019 03:10
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Paramemetic posted:Maya is Royalty because she doesn't give a gently caress about any of that poo poo maya is just as strangled by desire as the demiurges themselves. she would actually fit quite well amongst them, what with the self loathing and the continuous inability to get out of her own way.
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Apr 25, 2019 03:44
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There are definitely times when the use of force is not only allowed, but a moral imperative. Applying it to people doing Demiurge poo poo probably fits that bill. The trick is being able to do it and have it matter, because people doing Demiurge poo poo are probably really good at violence and you get an extremely thin margin in which to do anything about them before they kill you super dead. You have to be better at violence than a person who does Demiurge poo poo, without being the kind of person who will do Demiurge poo poo.
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Apr 25, 2019 04:05
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I just realized she was following this lesson when she turned from the fleeing Alison and cut Juggs. She sees Alison as a thing needing protection. Cannot wait for the coming training montage
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Apr 25, 2019 04:05
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We should probably all also remember that Meti is not a moral person. After all, she's doing exactly what those monks did, just she's also brutalizing a child (Incubus is a super creepy child, but, still). Meti is not an expert on anything like moral philosophy, or aesthetics, or theology. She doesn't even have the courage to cut down the demiurges that are wrecking the cosmos, despite that being literally the only thing her skills and philosophy might be good at. Meti rules, but Meti also sucks. She's a great character and her ideas are interesting, but I really don't think it's a good idea to read the comic like she, or Maya, are right about everything here. Especially since her Sword philosophy captures only part of Yisun's most amusing teaching: "Nothing matters, desire is suffering ... but ignore that if you want to live a life worth living." E: in Kierkegaard terms, Meti is the knight of cynicism, but what Yisun wants is the knight of the absurd. In Kirkbride terms, she's recognized that zero-summing exists, but has not understood how to pass through that to CHIM. She is not quite Royalty, which is a particularly metal take on the transvaluation of all values. Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 04:49 on Apr 25, 2019 |
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Apr 25, 2019 04:47
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 Meti is good B)
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Apr 25, 2019 04:54
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Actually taking life lessons from any of the powerful people in this comic is a good way to end up miserable just like they are.
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Apr 25, 2019 05:04
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Joe Slowboat posted:She doesn't even have the courage to cut down the demiurges that are wrecking the cosmos, despite that being literally the only thing her skills and philosophy might be good at. her abstinence from violence has nothing to do with lack of courage she believes the use of violence will only perpetuate it no matter what the intent, and since the world around her is a burnt-out shell constantly reinforcing that assertion it's difficult to blame her zoss carved up the entire pantheon and this is where it led them Oxxidation fucked around with this message at 05:07 on Apr 25, 2019 |
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Apr 25, 2019 05:04
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want to see sword diogenese hand out with regular diogenese
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Apr 25, 2019 05:09
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Dr Subterfuge posted:Actually taking life lessons from any of the powerful people in this comic is a good way to end up miserable just like they are. And that's exactly the lesson Meti is trying to impart. There is no perfectly moral position, so stop hemming and hawing and commit your actions to your beliefs, however flawed they may be. And it's very do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do since she's been drunk in a barrel for decades. But she's very committed to that course of action at least!
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Apr 25, 2019 05:29
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Dead Reckoning posted:Doing stupid and self destructive poo poo isn't inherently royal. Idiots will continue to misread the story of Aesma by assuming she was royal because she was an idiot. imo hot pepper eating contests are very royal, its all about overcoming the frailty of body and mind Bilirubin posted:I just realized she was following this lesson when she turned from the fleeing Alison and cut Juggs. She sees Alison as a thing needing protection. neat catch
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Apr 25, 2019 05:50
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Oxxidation posted:her abstinence from violence has nothing to do with lack of courage Choosing doing nothing while the world burns over actually trying to prevent it is not actually a good hill to die on, as we see with those monks. It's certainly a moral position one can take but it's not exactly bulletproof... especially when you also train Incubus. That's not breaking any cycle of violence, that's teaching a child how to ride a cycle of violence with no handlebars.
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Apr 25, 2019 06:12
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"political power grows from the barrel of a gun"
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Apr 25, 2019 10:07
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No one listens to the Very Wise Frog.
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Apr 25, 2019 11:32
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I am constantly astounded how the writing of this comic has consistently improved alongside the art. Both are incredible.
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Apr 25, 2019 11:45
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Joe Slowboat posted:Choosing doing nothing while the world burns over actually trying to prevent it is not actually a good hill to die on, as we see with those monks. the monks thought they had excused themselves from the cycle of violence by dint of their neutrality. solomon showed them otherwise given that meti speaks offhandedly about slaying ten thousand men like it's something she had to do on her way to the shops, she's more than justified in believing that the use of force comes to no positive end. that's not to say she believes she's outside the cycle, the way the monks did, but she's long since quit the whole thing in disgust and just sat in her jar waiting for the evils of the world to smash themselves against her until the edifice of her body finally cracks maybe she knew what was in store for her the minute incubus grabbed hold of that sword. i doubt solomon david's teacher foresaw that he'd be elbow-checked into the great hereafter
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Apr 25, 2019 13:09
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yah meti doesn't seem so much like a pacifist as just someone who's done with this poo poo her philosophy of violence seems to be that it's bad, and if you must be violent you can be nothing but violent, i.e. trying to do violence for anything but its own sake is inherently contradictory and you should go and become a farmer or noodle vendor instead V. Illych L. fucked around with this message at 14:19 on Apr 25, 2019 |
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Apr 25, 2019 14:17
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Oxxidation posted:given that meti speaks offhandedly about slaying ten thousand men like it's something she had to do on her way to the shops, she's more than justified in believing that the use of force comes to no positive end. She's still wrong though. Oxxidation posted:maybe she knew what was in store for her the minute incubus grabbed hold of that sword. i doubt solomon david's teacher foresaw that he'd be elbow-checked into the great hereafter
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Apr 25, 2019 14:49
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Honestly she was probably relieved. Like the very wise frog before her, she knew violence is inescapable, and willingly went to her death as an object lesson for some idiot who could go on and make good on that teaching, eventually.
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Apr 25, 2019 15:36
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Dead Reckoning posted:She's still wrong though. Like she said in her sword manual, it would be better to learn how to sweep and work your way up to building a house and family rather than learning how to use a sword. All she can do with the power she gained is kill things and teach people how to kill things.
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Apr 25, 2019 16:05
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Brought To You By posted:I don't see how she's wrong. If you use violence to remove someone from power, eventually someone will come for you as well. And if you seek to eliminate every possible threat to you, eventually there will be nobody else around which isn't a net positive for anyone. The demiurges are proof positive of what she teaches, all of them are broken people terrified of their own ends, and one of them who seeks to plunge the multiverse into warfare. Unfortunately pacifism cannot protect against violence. In the end you'll just be the good man doing nothing while evil triumphs.
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Apr 25, 2019 16:06
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