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China invented it first. I am sure your lovely capitalism private sector credit score system came after hukou. In fact your creditkarma score should be called hukoufen.
tino fucked around with this message at 00:13 on Apr 17, 2019 |
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Apr 14, 2019 17:14
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5000 years of social credit scores
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Apr 21, 2019 06:36
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sincx fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Apr 21, 2019 18:19
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sincx posted:Nah China and the US are pretty much progressing in parallel towards a shared dystopian future I mean I'm not a fan of either one but it's incredibly disingenuous to equate facial scanning for ID with a social credit system that blacklists you from services and travel based on your loyalty to the Party's ideals. Like JetBlue ain't going to prevent you from boarding a flight you paid for because you sent out a mean tweet about them.
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Apr 23, 2019 14:51
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tino posted:China invented it first. I am sure your lovely capitalism private sector credit score system came after hukou. In fact your creditkarma score should be called hukoufen. The modern Hukou pretty much stems from the Tsarist/Soviet passport system.
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Apr 23, 2019 17:15
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Amergin posted:I mean I'm not a fan of either one but it's incredibly disingenuous to equate True although I think it’s worth remembering that the US is far from embodying the ideals that we demand from all other countries. Chelsea Manning should be free. And while I would like to see Assuage properly answer for those rape accusations in Sweden, the idea that he should be extradited to and possibly imprisoned in the US for leaking information that threatens the powers that be is worrying. When people thought back in the 1990’s that globalization was going to have political systems all converge towards a similar model, the assumption was that China would become more like the West. That is quite backwards. The West is becoming more like China. The PRC hasn’t gotten much more open towards the idea of human rights, but we have gotten much more authoritarian and willing to violate individual liberties.
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Apr 23, 2019 17:22
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Snipee posted:True although I think it’s worth remembering that the US is far from embodying the ideals that we demand from all other countries. Chelsea Manning should be free. And while I would like to see Assuage properly answer for those rape accusations in Sweden, the idea that he should be extradited to and possibly imprisoned in the US for leaking information that threatens the powers that be is worrying. Totally agree. Snipee posted:When people thought back in the 1990’s that globalization was going to have political systems all converge towards a similar model, the assumption was that China would become more like the West. That is quite backwards. The West is becoming more like China. The PRC hasn’t gotten much more open towards the idea of human rights, but we have gotten much more authoritarian and willing to violate individual liberties. I disagree that the US is becoming more like China. The US has been this authoritarian for decades and beyond, and if anything has gotten a little less authoritarian (marginally) but way more subtle about it and way better at hiding it (and it's become easier to shuffle it under the rug/move on if it is revealed - see Panama Papers, WikiLeaks in general, Snowden's 2013 disclosures on the NSA, responses to Occupy, and how every week young black and brown people get murdered by cops - it hardly ever sticks or results in actual change). China meanwhile is taking new technology and applying it in ways that are "authoritarian but with Chinese characteristics," but China doesn't care as much about hiding it (partly because  and partly because of censored internet). It's out in the open (and part of the reason for this is the US and west in general constantly try to keep it that way). It's not sophisticated in the way the US's systems of oppression are, but they also don't need to be.
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Apr 23, 2019 18:31
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It's hard to understate how much widely available and widely used encrypted communication systems in the west have improved privacy and limited the state's surveillance capacity today. It's a testament to our free institutions that law enforcement agencies have tried and failed to get tech companies to supply them with encryption keys or back doors. Compare that to China where encrypted communication is forbidden to private citizens. They don't even need an encryption key or back door to WeChat because it's just plain text communication. Finally instead of "two things are bad" this time it's actually "China is bad and America is actually not as bad as you think on this point."
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Apr 23, 2019 19:48
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To be blunt, Americans also dump a shitload of info on their fully public profiles too. It doesn't matter how secure your connection is when you're also talking up everything you do to a thousand direct followers/friends and also an easy to publicly search feed.
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Apr 23, 2019 21:10
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Bloodnose posted:It's hard to understate how much widely available and widely used encrypted communication systems in the west have improved privacy and limited the state's surveillance capacity today. It's a testament to our free institutions that law enforcement agencies have tried and failed to get tech companies to supply them with encryption keys or back doors. Compare that to China where encrypted communication is forbidden to private citizens. They don't even need an encryption key or back door to WeChat because it's just plain text communication. IIRC aren't there people in the US who really badly want a backdoor into iphones and such?
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Apr 23, 2019 21:34
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Raenir Salazar posted:IIRC aren't there people in the US who really badly want a backdoor into iphones and such?
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Apr 23, 2019 23:00
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Raenir Salazar posted:IIRC aren't there people in the US who really badly want a backdoor into iphones and such? The point is they haven't been able to get it.
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Apr 24, 2019 00:30
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Amergin posted:I disagree that the US is becoming more like China. The US has been this authoritarian for decades and beyond, and if anything has gotten a little less authoritarian (marginally) but way more subtle about it and way better at hiding it (and it's become easier to shuffle it under the rug/move on if it is revealed - see Panama Papers, WikiLeaks in general, Snowden's 2013 disclosures on the NSA, responses to Occupy, and how every week young black and brown people get murdered by cops - it hardly ever sticks or results in actual change). Are you suggesting that the domestic surveillance activities legalized by the Patriot Act existed anywhere near the same scale prior to the 21st century? We didn’t have the computing power or technology to be as efficient at collecting mass amounts of data during the Cold War or before that. Granted, the federal government has long been human rights violating monsters towards foreigners, but the War on Terror brought many of those practices to the homeland. The TSA didn’t exist prior to 9/11, and they have only gotten more intrusive tools since then. The paranoia among white people that they are losing their country to immigration and their heightened economic insecurity after decades of automation & globalization further accelerated our authoritarian turn.
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Apr 24, 2019 01:29
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White people have always been scared of losing their country to immigrants. I'd argue they were way more scared of it a hundred years ago. But the immigrants they were scared of eventually got invited into whiteness. You can go back to the 18th century and see Benjamin Franklin writing about how Philadelphia was like a foreign country now because the arcane practices of the alien German had proliferated to such an extent. This round of immigrants will get their turn to be white before long, and they will then be scared of the new ones and on into the future. It sucks, but it's not new. And at least this time there's a portion of white people who are actually like "nah immigrants are fine."
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Apr 24, 2019 03:19
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Snipee posted:Are you suggesting that the domestic surveillance activities legalized by the Patriot Act existed anywhere near the same scale prior to the 21st century? We didn’t have the computing power or technology to be as efficient at collecting mass amounts of data during the Cold War or before that. There was far less "mass amounts of data" to collect then though. poo poo people would keep their phone conversations to people who weren't local short because "long distance calls" could signifcantly jack up your phone bill even in the 90s, let alone in the 70s and earlier. You can't be ignorant enough to miss that the cops had an easy time infiltrating and tracking all sorts of suspected "reds" back in the 20th century. And any other movement they cared to investigate.
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Apr 24, 2019 03:22
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Snipee posted:Granted, the federal government has long been human rights violating monsters towards foreigners, but the War on Terror brought many of those practices to the homeland.
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Apr 24, 2019 03:28
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Reading up on Deng Xiaoping's biography, I hope Jiang Qing suffered horribly for her crimes against China in jail.
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Apr 24, 2019 07:09
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The PRC isn't America, they treat their prisoners with dignity.
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Apr 24, 2019 07:24
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Mantis42 posted:The PRC isn't America, they treat their prisoners with dignity. Builds character, Deng came out of it alright. Be jailed, come back out as supreme leader!
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Apr 24, 2019 14:08
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Unfortunately Deng's son was harassed so hard by Red Guards during the CR he was thrown from a window and became paraplegic.
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Apr 24, 2019 15:18
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Amergin posted:I mean I'm not a fan of either one but it's incredibly disingenuous to equate it is disingenuous to equate something that exists with something that doesn't, i agree.
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Apr 26, 2019 09:18
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JetBlue is testing it in several airports. It's not fully implemented but it's silly to argue it doesn't exist at all.
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Apr 26, 2019 09:47
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If your job is face recognition. Amazon, Google and Microsoft want to replace you with a server in the cloud they can ask 1$ hour. The european union is paving the way so AGM make money from people posting images/videos to the internet.
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Apr 26, 2019 09:53
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Bloodnose posted:JetBlue is testing it in several airports. It's not fully implemented but it's silly to argue it doesn't exist at all. other way around, genius. the people on the blacklist are people who haven't paid debts or the courts. there is no unified "social credit score." which i've said repeatedly here.
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Apr 26, 2019 10:20
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R. Guyovich posted:other way around, genius. the people on the blacklist are people who haven't paid debts or the courts. there is no unified "social credit score." which i've said repeatedly here. Who are you going to believe, people who live in China or have chinese family? Or some guy whose job is literally to come up with these talking points like “social credit” for the state department?
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Apr 26, 2019 10:35
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R. Guyovich posted:other way around, genius. the people on the blacklist are people who haven't paid debts or the courts. there is no unified "social credit score." which i've said repeatedly here. But there is and you've been shown officially published Chinese government documents discussing it. It's much farther along in implementation than JetBlue's facial recognition technology.
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Apr 26, 2019 10:39
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Ideology is a façade. Is not about capitalism, comunism, the oposite or all of it. Is about how much the citizens can tolerate from power hungry politicians. You cant govern a nation if the people dont agree with your ideas “You can build a throne of bayonets, but you can't sit on it for long.” Boris Yeltsin Tei fucked around with this message at 10:59 on Apr 26, 2019 |
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Apr 26, 2019 10:57
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Grouchio posted:Unfortunately Deng's son was harassed so hard by Red Guards during the CR he was thrown from a window and became paraplegic. That actually legit makes me sad.
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Apr 26, 2019 13:46
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No it was cool and good. Deng's son got kicked outta window and Mao's son got bombed in Korea was how communist China avoid dictator dynasties (so far). Thank you unnamed A-26 bomber pilot!
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Apr 26, 2019 13:58
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tino posted:No it was cool and good. Deng's son got kicked outta window and Mao's son got bombed in Korea was how communist China avoid dictator dynasties (so far). Thank you unnamed A-26 bomber pilot! That seems unnecessarily callous and cruel towards people that, as far as we know did nothing wrong. Also Mao had like 10 children and the USSR didn't have dynasties either; all because of a hypothetical possibility that overwhelming evidence suggests wasn't going to happen anyways. It's a clear violation of the categorical imperative, if someone in your family killed someone it wouldn't be just if people acted with glee if something unfortunate happened to you.
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Apr 26, 2019 14:06
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sincx fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Apr 26, 2019 14:33
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sincx posted:One of the rumors as to why Xi got picked to be General Secretary was that he didn't have a son. I think this is actually doubtful as the thing is within the Selectorate you'd have had many years of political participation to get on that kind of career track and powerful patrons. IIRC there's a path you basically have to be taking and also end up essentially as a sort of consensus pick between the ultraconservative hardliners from the Ministry of Security/Propaganda as well as the technocrats and I really don't think its a given that merely being the General Sec's progeny is enough of coattails to make it the whole way without some politically canny skill themselves. I can't think of any better way to be a puppet of some powerful faction then relying on coattails. Plus I think Jiang was just Mao's wife and she terrorized the Party and I think that was bad enough for them to not just blindly let the current hypothetical Paramount Leader autopilot their family members to succeed them except in exceptional circumstances. Like, I think so far has only Cuba passed from one family member to another? And Raul was also there during the Revolution. I think it's more likely that IF Xi had a son, then if his son *was* in national politics that'd be the end of his career when Xi got picked just to be safe; the Party may pick Xi but then turn around to make sure his son isn't in a position to succeed him.
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Apr 26, 2019 14:52
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Bo Xilai's downfall was related to his son's oversea activity, I believe it. Future general secretary candidate has to have no male heir and a wife who is not in politic.
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Apr 26, 2019 15:10
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Oh correction, I somehow forgot about North Korea having quite literally a dynasty.tino posted:Bo Xilai's downfall was related to his son's oversea activity, I believe it. Quite interesting return of an Elective Monarchy here.
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Apr 26, 2019 15:29
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Raenir Salazar posted:Plus I think Jiang was just Mao's wife and she terrorized the Party and I think that was bad enough for them to not just blindly let the current hypothetical Paramount Leader autopilot their family members to succeed them except in exceptional circumstances. During the Mao years, just being close to Mao would give you that level of power. Lin Biao largely became Mao's successor by being next to him in public, compiling the Little Red Book, and not really saying anything other than Mao quotes and things backing up Mao quotes. He was one of the 10 Marshals, he was a pretty good general, but his illnesses and continuing mental illness kept him out of any sort of event that could be used against him. Mao's second successor was Hua Guofeng, whose chief achievement was successfully running a factory that made those Mao pins/buttons everyone had to wear. He was pretty unceremoniously removed from the picture after he came to power because he was just the Mao pin factory guy from Hunan. The Mao years and the Cultural Revolution was like a weird, dark, political comedy. I could see Xi's leadership going that route since he's making a big cult of personality but no leader before him could have really done that, had that happen, because they were bland on purpose to prevent another scenario like this. As the paramount leader moves more to being an embodiment of the state, as opposed to the steward of the state, we'll probably see more weirdos climbing the ranks because they gave good reviews of Xi's latest opus.
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Apr 26, 2019 16:57
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:I could see Xi's leadership going that route since he's making a big cult of personality but no leader before him could have really done that, had that happen, because they were bland on purpose to prevent another scenario like this. As the paramount leader moves more to being an embodiment of the state, as opposed to the steward of the state, we'll probably see more weirdos climbing the ranks because they gave good reviews of Xi's latest opus. Let me, the most oblivious naive person in this forum, be the one to say it loud: if that happens, it would be really bad for the future of China. Not bad in "the house will burn" but bad in the "the trash will not be collected in time, making the whole house stink, and anything that breaks, will continue broken and not get fixed" sense.
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Apr 26, 2019 17:13
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RocknRollaAyatollah posted:During the Mao years, just being close to Mao would give you that level of power. Lin Biao largely became Mao's successor by being next to him in public, compiling the Little Red Book, and not really saying anything other than Mao quotes and things backing up Mao quotes. He was one of the 10 Marshals, he was a pretty good general, but his illnesses and continuing mental illness kept him out of any sort of event that could be used against him. Mao's second successor was Hua Guofeng, whose chief achievement was successfully running a factory that made those Mao pins/buttons everyone had to wear. He was pretty unceremoniously removed from the picture after he came to power because he was just the Mao pin factory guy from Hunan. Well to be fair to Hua he was a local Hunan party official for like 20 years and then brought to national prominence in 69' and then five years later succeed a variety of national posts until made Premier in 76'; there was a trajectory there, and Mao could only hypothetically get his son at best in position to follow a similar trajectory but after he died just like with Hua unless Mao's son could've made the right alliances Mao's influence alone isn't going to work to keep him in power after Mao is dead.
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Apr 26, 2019 17:34
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 https://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg...4COnbEb4TlXksaQ quote:In a nation where men dominate political and business leadership and campaigns for gender equality have gained little traction, the debate over what is “effeminate” has become a popular pastime among older conservative residents, and mostly among men.
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Apr 27, 2019 08:35
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Isn't "fresh young meat" just the slang for a hot guy
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Apr 27, 2019 08:49
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How is sissy pants an insult.
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Apr 27, 2019 09:33
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