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He technically owns kaiser right now unless he immediately freed her and I forgot about it
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Apr 17, 2019 12:21
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I think she was immediately freed
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Apr 17, 2019 12:26
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KittyEmpress posted:Is Tower of God an Isekai? It has some elements that resemble it, like the game-like structure of the Tower tests. It isn't one, though. There's some implication that Irregulars were originally meant to be the "players," but the "game" is more like a literal other world. Rachel referring to Headon as a "fae" sort of captures the distinction: it's the sort of world that you might be wisked off to if a faery decided to steal you away.
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Apr 17, 2019 12:40
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KittyEmpress posted:Is Tower of God an Isekai? Hodgepodge posted:It has some elements that resemble it, like the game-like structure of the Tower tests. It isn't one, though. There's some implication that Irregulars were originally meant to be the "players," but the "game" is more like a literal other world. Rachel referring to Headon as a "fae" sort of captures the distinction: it's the sort of world that you might be wisked off to if a faery decided to steal you away.
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Apr 20, 2019 05:44
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It kind of misses the concept of an Isekai if literally every single character in the story is whisked away. Also it's the same world they were already in. Everyone except the Jahad, the Family leaders, Urek, Enryu and Phantaminum and maybe Rachel are from the Tower, they just got invited to the super brutal murder quest version of the Tower.
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Apr 20, 2019 15:19
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Sans Rachel though, all of the qualifying isekai people do have godlike op isekai protagonist powers.
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Apr 20, 2019 20:29
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I'm not sure the concept of isekai's were around in 2010, but I could be wrong.
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Apr 21, 2019 00:21
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Two Tone Shoes posted:It kind of misses the concept of an Isekai if literally every single character in the story is whisked away. Also it's the same world they were already in. Everyone except the Jahad, the Family leaders, Urek, Enryu and Phantaminum and maybe Rachel are from the Tower, they just got invited to the super brutal murder quest version of the Tower. Gologle posted:I'm not sure the concept of isekai's were around in 2010, but I could be wrong.
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Apr 21, 2019 01:50
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Isekai was originally a shoujo thing where girls die/go to sleep/pass out/etc in a boring normal life. And wake up a princess with tons of cute suitors they had to choose from. We just never got many of those translated out here.
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Apr 21, 2019 01:59
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Brought To You By posted:Why? I wasn't considering people like Kuhn or Rak as isekai protagonists given the context of the tower. And even with the story of Baam turning out that he's from inside the tower originally, his story starts with and frames him as being the outsider coming into this place and going through the labors of surviving and learning all there is to know about this place. Wouldn't be the first story where someone is smuggled out of their homeworld/realm and hidden away onto another one only to return. I keep my assumptions for the genre pretty simple, if someone travels to "another world" however we're defining that, it's an isekai. Baam wasn't just a stranger to the Tower, he was a stranger to literally everything. He doesn't really hit any of the Isekai stuff besides the very vagueness of "stranger in a strange land" only he is actually the boy of prophecy. If "isekai" just means "Protagonist is in a place he's unfamiliar with" then I dunno, that includes so many things I wouldn't count. Baam's from The Tower, the Tower universe, and intricately tied to it. He's just super sheltered by circumstance, not by being from another world.
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Apr 21, 2019 05:38
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KittyEmpress posted:Isekai was originally a shoujo thing where girls die/go to sleep/pass out/etc in a boring normal life. And wake up a princess with tons of cute suitors they had to choose from. So Inuyasha?
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Apr 21, 2019 06:16
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https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-3-ep-6/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=424 Oh Baam, you optimistic, overpowered little muffin. I actually think this is the first time we've seen Baam straight up cocky/confident about his power when he's not getting super angry and declaring some ethos of his.
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Apr 22, 2019 02:14
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Fucks sake, Baam. Is that really you?
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Apr 22, 2019 14:58
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The (two?) years training with Evankhell really rubbed off on him huh.
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Apr 22, 2019 15:30
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Having a reachable, concrete goal and knowing he's super duper powerful relative to his peers probably help a lot, too. Before this he had just gotten the goal to take down Zahard and he's been fighting out of his depth ever since (Floor of Death, Hidden Floor, a pile of rankers).
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Apr 22, 2019 20:24
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They need to find Baam's party members some macguffins that will instantly make them 100x stronger than other regulars so they can keep up with Baam. Maybe they can take the macguffin from the guy who almost killed Jinsung and give it to someone. The only person in his party with any plausible path towards a similar level of power while still being a regular is, amusingly, Rak, due to the whole "Tower native with special powers" thing. And maybe Endorsi/Anak, since there seems to be some precedent for Jahad princesses achieving absolute top-tier power, though those tend to be ones who are also from the ten families.
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Apr 22, 2019 21:48
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Kkun can get his lighthouse upgraded again or that lighthouse where only 3 exist in the whole tower. Evan can also just give him some of those op items he seems to have a lot of.
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Apr 22, 2019 22:19
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it's manga. rear end-pulling power ups is what manga is for.
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Apr 22, 2019 22:45
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Ytlaya posted:They need to find Baam's party members some macguffins that will instantly make them 100x stronger than other regulars so they can keep up with Baam. Maybe they can take the macguffin from the guy who almost killed Jinsung and give it to someone. The only person in his party with any plausible path towards a similar level of power while still being a regular is, amusingly, Rak, due to the whole "Tower native with special powers" thing. And maybe Endorsi/Anak, since there seems to be some precedent for Jahad princesses achieving absolute top-tier power, though those tend to be ones who are also from the ten families. Khun literally just got a McGuffin beat into his chest. He now has HOT ICE Khun, Rak, and Endorsi are the main ones who are staying with him for the long haul power level wise. Hockney will always just stick around because "can see the future" is a power that doesn't need to scale.
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Apr 22, 2019 22:50
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Khun is a direct child of eduan so like ran has the potential to be a top 100 ranker which is also why he got a new power up the same time as rak
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Apr 22, 2019 23:30
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Two Tone Shoes posted:Khun literally just got a McGuffin beat into his chest. He now has HOT ICE Hockney is basically a psuedo-guide, or maybe just a new/unique type of guide. So he can grow a lot just by using his power and and picking up useful tricks and tools. Also a built-in power boost plot hook wrt his painting. E: I wonder if SIU is daring enough to live up to the character's name and make him openly gay. As long as the subtext is still there, I think SIU is at least able to handle it respectfully. Hodgepodge fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Apr 23, 2019 |
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Apr 23, 2019 02:08
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Two Tone Shoes posted:Baam wasn't just a stranger to the Tower, he was a stranger to literally everything. He doesn't really hit any of the Isekai stuff besides the very vagueness of "stranger in a strange land" only he is actually the boy of prophecy. If "isekai" just means "Protagonist is in a place he's unfamiliar with" then I dunno, that includes so many things I wouldn't count. Baam's from The Tower, the Tower universe, and intricately tied to it. He's just super sheltered by circumstance, not by being from another world. Ytlaya posted:They need to find Baam's party members some macguffins that will instantly make them 100x stronger than other regulars so they can keep up with Baam. Maybe they can take the macguffin from the guy who almost killed Jinsung and give it to someone. The only person in his party with any plausible path towards a similar level of power while still being a regular is, amusingly, Rak, due to the whole "Tower native with special powers" thing. And maybe Endorsi/Anak, since there seems to be some precedent for Jahad princesses achieving absolute top-tier power, though those tend to be ones who are also from the ten families.
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Apr 23, 2019 02:21
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Brought To You By posted:The only thing that really makes something isekai is whether or not someone is travelling between worlds since that's what the term means. Anything after that is just context for the specific story and "stranger in a strange land" is just the most common expression of that story idea and for Baam not knowing anything about anything is a core part of his character arc. The point would be that Baam has been inside and outside the tower and both are treated as separate realms entirely. That's all I would need to put an isekai tag on the work. The Tower isn't a different world, though. It's the same world. Baam was never from anywhere else and he has no background anywhere else besides. We don't even know where that hole in the ground he was at was so even if your super vague definition of isekai is "different world" then that doesn't apply either. Isekai sometimes has the fish out of water stuff but it doesn't always. A lot of the time it's actually a fish going into water perfectly suited to them because they know how everything works and can abuse it perfectly, for instance. Two Tone Shoes fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Apr 23, 2019 |
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Apr 23, 2019 04:11
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Two Tone Shoes posted:The Tower isn't a different world, though. It's the same world. Baam was never from anywhere else and he has no background anywhere else besides. We don't even know where that hole in the ground he was at was so even if your super vague definition of isekai is "different world" then that doesn't apply either. Barring information new to me, I don't think there's anything vague about calling a tower that's it's own self contained pocket dimension another world. I don't even know who built the thing or why, just that currently the floor administrators are showing how upset they are that Jahad just stopped climbing so there is a purpose there we're not aware of. quote:Isekai sometimes has the fish out of water stuff but it doesn't always. A lot of the time it's actually a fish going into water perfectly suited to them because they know how everything works and can abuse it perfectly, for instance.
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Apr 23, 2019 05:14
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Brought To You By posted:Where in relation to everything else is this tower because I don't keep up with the author's comments and the tower itself is a pocket dimension containing numerous planes each with their own eldritch horror keeping an eye on it. "outside" isn't really defined to me as the door Baam opened appeared where he was it's not like he walked up to a literal tower and opened the door. And trust me, I'm being very conservative with "different world" we're not talking about time travel and whether or not going into the distant future/past could be considered "another world" as the word Isekai means. That's the Inuyasha/NTHT argument and I've had my fill. My point is Baam has none of the Isekai thing of being from another world. The Tower is his first world outside of the very, very narrow parameter of Rachel raising him long enough for him to be a talking, thinking person. He has no other culture or knowledge or anything to draw upon besides some very brass tacks stuff from Rachel. My second point was that it doesn't have to be a fish out of water story to be an isekai. All those other examples are still isekais even if they buck and original trend. Either one can be an isekai. Said original trend apparently isn't fundamental to isekai. I guess here's what I'm saying, if it is an isekai what world is Baam from? I think that's actually a fundamental thing in isekai. We always know where the protagonist is from, even if it's just the tiniest little blurb at the beginning. It's usually from our own world, sometimes it's vice versa (the flipped script style fantasy to modern world isekais and the like). But Baam's just not any of that. His hole he's in has symbols on it from the tower (Jahad's) symbolizing that the reach of the story/Tower extends to Baam's little hole. The literal only thing we know about Rachel is she's somehow connected to Arlene, someone from the Tower. I just don't see it.
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Apr 23, 2019 05:31
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Two Tone Shoes posted:My second point was that it doesn't have to be a fish out of water story to be an isekai. All those other examples are still isekais even if they buck and original trend. Either one can be an isekai. Said original trend apparently isn't fundamental to isekai. quote:I guess here's what I'm saying, if it is an isekai what world is Baam from? I think that's actually a fundamental thing in isekai. We always know where the protagonist is from, even if it's just the tiniest little blurb at the beginning. It's usually from our own world, sometimes it's vice versa (the flipped script style fantasy to modern world isekais and the like). But Baam's just not any of that. His hole he's in has symbols on it from the tower (Jahad's) symbolizing that the reach of the story/Tower extends to Baam's little hole. The literal only thing we know about Rachel is she's somehow connected to Arlene, someone from the Tower. I just don't see it. And too your other statement, a tiny blurb is increasingly more common in web novels I see as a chapter 1 plot point that is forgotten by the end of the first issue and the story becomes a fantasy novel played straight. Is it an isekai if the main character reincarnates into the body of an infant, and then never uses anything from their previous life again as they just acclimate to their new world and forget any attachments to their old one. If that's more valid than having a guy who knows nothing and hidden away somewhere else only to be brought back by his own will, why?
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Apr 23, 2019 15:32
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I mean with language you can argue a lot of things if you really feel like it. If someone's asked you for an isekai and you give them tower of god I'm guessing they'd be confused.
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Apr 23, 2019 15:58
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Brought To You By posted:I'm confused here because I'm not disagreeing with this point, but saying that people can buck the trend should also apply to Baam's situation right? Since not adhering to the general expression of Isekai being "guy from earth is thrust into a new world" and he's instead "chosen one hidden away in another world brings himself back setting off the prophecy" is just an atypical expression of the idea of transportation between worlds correct? You told me you defined an Isekai was: quote:The only thing that really makes something isekai is whether or not someone is travelling between worlds since that's what the term means. That was what I was refuting. Baam is not from a different world. His mom and dad were, and he's got some real hosed up circumstances, but Baam was born in the Tower, died in the tower, came back, and once he was old enough to have some agency he continued his story in the tower. His entire backstory is based around stuff in the Tower. If you think literally anything is an Isekai then I dunno. It barely relates any of the isekai tropes for that matter besides ignorant protagonist. Two Tone Shoes fucked around with this message at 16:32 on Apr 23, 2019 |
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Apr 23, 2019 16:28
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Two Tone Shoes posted:That was what I was refuting. Baam is not from a different world. His mom and dad were, and he's got some real hosed up circumstances, but Baam was born in the Tower, died in the tower, came back, and once he was old enough to have some agency he continued his story in the tower. His entire backstory is based around stuff in the Tower. If you think literally anything is an Isekai then I dunno. And I'm fully aware that the topic of "what is an Isekai" can get really broad, but I'm not trying to make it fuzzier than it need be. We could be arguing for things like time travel, space travel, reincarnation with no attachments to the past life, virtual reality games, etc. But we're not here trying to guess if Star Wars counts as Isekai because Luke left Tatooine to gallivant around the Galaxy. I don't think anything and everything is an Isekai, but I am willing to humor whether or not ToG could have the genre included in it's description at the very least because it doesn't seem to be as abstract as you're making it. There's really one question I'm hung up on regarding the location of things. As for Isekai tropes, The main character being out of his depth is generally how most Isekai will function, and having immeasurable power is what a lot of people conflate with modern Isekai given the boom in the 2010's. Do those not apply here as even being comparable? I mean travelling to fantastical locations isn't exclusive to Isekai in-and-of-itself and you could look at the gamified nature of the tower with all these Games as also being similar to modern Isekai that more commonly include game elements into their settings.
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Apr 23, 2019 17:19
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The reason Baam is extremely powerful is because he was born of two of the most powerful people in the Tower. Which kind of just rolls right back into why I wouldn't think it's an isekai. There is mystery around Baam and his origins and his purpose but the existence of mystery and secreting Baam away doesn't really register at all as an isekai to me. Like I said, your qualification for isekai is so little like anything that it might as well not count as anything. "Protagonist goes somewhere that is not the same time and/or place he started at" seems to be the baseline for it so far. It makes basically every Hero's journey and isekai.
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Apr 23, 2019 23:56
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I feel like the both of you are arguing over semantics.
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Apr 24, 2019 03:00
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The definition of something being an isekai are not is literally just semantics, yes.
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Apr 24, 2019 03:45
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Two Tone Shoes posted:The reason Baam is extremely powerful is because he was born of two of the most powerful people in the Tower. Which kind of just rolls right back into why I wouldn't think it's an isekai. quote:Like I said, your qualification for isekai is so little like anything that it might as well not count as anything. "Protagonist goes somewhere that is not the same time and/or place he started at" seems to be the baseline for it so far. It makes basically every Hero's journey and isekai. There is only one question that need be answered for my purposes: Where is the tower actually located and what constitutes "outside" of the tower. Because whether or not the tower is it's own contained reality that can be accessed if you have sufficient willpower and determination, or just a very complicated piece of architecture anchored within a world is what makes or breaks the isekai factor for me. Now we can nitpick tropes and plot devices trying to figure out how many 1:1 adhere to the popular interpretations in japanese fiction but that's all secondary to the only hard requirement for the genre itself. Gologle posted:I feel like the both of you are arguing over semantics.
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Apr 24, 2019 14:35
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I feel like Baam was locked up in a pocket dimension inside the Tower, probably hidden away for his own protection more than imprisoned, not that he was in some cave somewhere and found his way inside. I'm not sure if there's anything in the comic pointing either way on this but that's just my impression.
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Apr 24, 2019 15:21
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There are a lot of directions you could go with it. We only know that Headon guards the entrance to the tower so it feels safe enough to assume rachel and baam were outside of it, but there are a whole lot of places outside of the tower. It's vague enough that anything could be true.
No Wave fucked around with this message at 15:28 on Apr 24, 2019 |
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Apr 24, 2019 15:25
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Yeah, pretty much. As far as looking at ToG as an Isekai, personally it never occurred to me. Looking back, I do think there are some characteristics that one can identify and are similar or identical with Isekai tropes. One of the biggest missing imo though is that one of the pillars of the Isekai genre is having the transported agent deal with the new world while relying in the experiences and the psyche that he had in the previous world. The previous world and how it has shaped the character informs his actions and the genre is partly built on the juxtaposition between the two worlds. Take for example Zipang, where the Japanese Navy people have to deal with their own ancestors, or Now and then, here and there where a spirited Kendo practicing teen is transported to a future post-apocalyptic hell-hole. Baam does not really work that way. He starts more like an empty vessel and while it is true that his prior life and upbringing informs his actions and the way he thinks, ToG is not based on that, but focuses more on the way he matures and shapes himself while climbing the tower.
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Apr 26, 2019 09:32
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https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-3-ep-7/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=425 Baam: The man with the plan. Not necessarily a good plan, but it sure is the plan.
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Apr 29, 2019 03:38
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Two Tone Shoes posted:https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-3-ep-7/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=425 
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Apr 29, 2019 19:38
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Two Tone Shoes posted:https://www.webtoons.com/en/fantasy/tower-of-god/season-3-ep-7/viewer?title_no=95&episode_no=425 That is certainly quite the plan. 
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Apr 30, 2019 00:10
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There is absolutely no way his plan to challenge a foe he isn't ready for will result in his participation in the tournament which was conveniently mentioned. Which could not possibly have a game-like structure which allows his friends to be relevant!
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Apr 30, 2019 00:27
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