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Truga posted:i am tho? Good. That should be more common. uninterrupted posted:Lol at people who think Maduro doesn't have popular support and is simultaneously arming the poor without being overthrown. Obviously he has some support, not zero, but you know very well that Maduro is arming only a segment of people who happen to support him. Not the entire poor as a category. wielder fucked around with this message at 22:22 on Apr 29, 2019 |
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Apr 29, 2019 22:17
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wielder posted:Obviously he has some support, not zero, but you know very well that Maduro is arming only a segment of people who happen to support him. Not the entire poor as a category. You want to give a citation for that? Collectivos have been around for years, and the western media demonization of them appears to be an attempt to both delegitimize the widespread support for Maduro, and excuse civilian murders if the US ends up invading.
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Apr 29, 2019 22:24
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:the question was honest. what is the thing that makes you believe these people will be an improvement. we have not been stingy with our explanations of why we find them untrustworthy. what is the case for them. We honestly don't know for sure what the opposition would do as government. We can't be sure until they are there. We have to hope guaido is being honest in that he will open fair elections if he is able to gain power. What we do know for certain is that maduro and his cronies have been abusing the people of Venezuela for years now,stealing from the already poor and depriving them of food and medicine. We know with the state that maduro has left the country and the election meddling, they need a new government.
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Apr 29, 2019 22:29
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Discendo Vox posted:You fail to distinguish between the US's involvement in Venezuela and the actions and agency of Venezuelans themselves. Your framing of the issue is selective. I think I've been pretty clear that I don't think the US should be in the business of imposing sanctions on Venezuela, which is admittedly an anti-imperialist framing, yes.
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Apr 29, 2019 22:32
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You've still not addressed Citgo or Russia.
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Apr 29, 2019 22:42
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if russia forbade venezuela from selling bonds in their markets that would be bad, yes
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Apr 29, 2019 22:47
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zapplez posted:We honestly don't know for sure what the opposition would do as government. We can't be sure until they are there. We have to hope guaido is being honest in that he will open fair elections if he is able to gain power. and we know for certain Guaido and his people consider working with war criminals whose solution to recalcitrant Latin American populations involves mass graves of the suspiciously dark-skinned totally unworthy of any discussion. you see, perhaps, why we look for something more than "well I'm sure he's gotten over it," yes
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Apr 29, 2019 22:48
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Discendo Vox posted:You've still not addressed Citgo or Russia. I don't live in Russia, I live in the US, and the proper US response to Venezuelan politics is no response at all.
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Apr 29, 2019 22:52
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Discendo Vox posted:Guiado does not represent all of them - he is presented as the leader because he was the not-yet-arrested protege of an already arrested leader of a popular (actually quite socialist) party, This entire post is drivel, but just wanted to point out that this arrested "socialist" leader supported eliminating the constitution in 2002 by hunting down and kidnapping enemies of the coup.
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Apr 29, 2019 22:53
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Gervasius posted:Because it's hard not to be an improvement over current collapse of the country? Because it opens a way for actual democratic changes that are impossible now that PSUV has entrenched themselves in all aspects of the government? look up El Mozote, friend. and look up Rios Montt. know what you are saying when you call the outcomes of giving Elliot Abrams a blank check to Defend Human Rights in another Latin American country "potentially bad." Maduro is doing a bad job. the number of times he has declared it necessary to cleanse the country of the dark-skinned filth who inexplicably persist in thinking they should have more of a hand in their government than the US does? considerably loving lower than your guy Guaido's friendly American liason. and courtesy of the situation on the ground, there is no possible set of circumstances where Juan Guaido responds to Elliot Abrams with anything other than "yessir, right away sir." I assure you: the Salvador Option specializes in taking a bad situation and making it unthinkably worse.
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Apr 29, 2019 22:56
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uninterrupted posted:You want to give a citation for that? Collectivos have been around for years, and the western media demonization of them appears to be an attempt to both delegitimize the widespread support for Maduro, and excuse civilian murders if the US ends up invading. Since you've brought this up, I don't believe you can demonstrate that the Colectivos are equivalent to the poor. Maduro barely won his first presidential election, his party lost the congressional elections by a wide margin, and his second presidential win was achieved in the midst of a historically high abstention even when judged by official Venezuelan standards. In other words, it's likely he would have either won by a smaller margin or outright lost if the opposition had participated (and felt they had the guarantees to do so). Thus it's not insignificant, there are people who like Maduro after all, but calling such mixed results "widespread support" probably requires us to redefine the actual meaning of the term. Regarding the Colectivos, I am not a fan of creating paramilitary organizations, whether they happen to be left-wing or right-wing in nature. You know where they start, but not where they will end up.
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Apr 29, 2019 23:02
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Kobayashi posted:I don't live in Russia, I live in the US, and the proper US response to Venezuelan politics is no response at all. Do...you know what Citgo is?
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Apr 29, 2019 23:10
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wielder posted:Since you've brought this up, I don't believe you can demonstrate that the Colectivos are equivalent to the poor. as Castro taught the world, though, it's one of the better ways to stop the Americans from kitting out a couple of death squads, buying a general you passed over for promotion, and then proceeding to go to town on any of the idiot peasants who don't rejoice in their new rulers. the world where the colectivos toss Maduro out the split second that outcome isn't being offered is one of the few potential non-awful outcomes here. wouldn't put any money on it happening, personally, but it exists.
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Apr 29, 2019 23:10
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Discendo Vox posted:Do...you know what Citgo is? Yes, but I suspect you have a more substantial question and I suspect my answer will be largely the same: The US shouldn't do anything with respect to its operations due to its relationship to Venezuela. You're probably going to be annoyed by that answer and try to take me to task for it, but that really does get into "not the US thread" territory so we'll just have to agree to leave it at that.
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Apr 29, 2019 23:20
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wielder posted:Since you've brought this up, I don't believe you can demonstrate that the Colectivos are equivalent to the poor. You're right, he did win his elections, and it's kind of silly to say elections don't count because some politicians, who have in the past as well as currently plan to overthrow the elected president and appoint an unelected one, decided not to run. wielder posted:Regarding the Colectivos, I am not a fan of creating paramilitary organizations, whether they happen to be left-wing or right-wing in nature. You know where they start, but not where they will end up. Hm, yes, poor people should only be allowed to have guns once they display appropriate levels of fealty to the rich. Love how right wingers support gun rights except when the brown people they wanna murder have them. Hey, since you're so against paramilitarys, I assume you don't support the coup to install Guaido, who actually factually planned to invade the country with 200 soldiers from Columbia?
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Apr 30, 2019 00:19
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Kobayashi posted:Yes, but I suspect you have a more substantial question and I suspect my answer will be largely the same: The US shouldn't do anything with respect to its operations due to its relationship to Venezuela. You're probably going to be annoyed by that answer and try to take me to task for it, but that really does get into "not the US thread" territory so we'll just have to agree to leave it at that. Your response is either internally contradictory or ignorant, and I can't tell which. Are you sure you know what Citgo is?
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Apr 30, 2019 00:37
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uninterrupted posted:You're right, he did win his elections and it's kind of silly to say elections don't count because some politicians.. Did you believe Saddam when he said he got elected with 100% approval? Did you also support Kim Jong Il's story about how he got a hole in one his first time golfing?
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Apr 30, 2019 00:39
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uninterrupted posted:Do you have something to contribute or are you just mad I'm not posting in line wit the echo chamber? What I am displeased with is that there is a severely creepy and paternalistic racism burrowing through your scattershot desperation to derive simplistic, villainous interpretation of the motivations of people you disagree with, and after a few pages of watching you broadcast your 'ironic' racism tells, in part while trying to explain venezuelan race issues to venezuelans, I am advising adamantly that you should not continue to post creepy racist poo poo as part of that effort, and absolutely do not use slurs. I get to be exposed to enough of that already on sites that aren't supposedly trying to curtail it. Don't respond to it with an insinuation that this is an insubstantial criticism or request. I don't have to criticize any of the rest of your posting or wrap that up into a grand narrative. It can just be "you're being a creep with this weird race poo poo, cut it out immediately."
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Apr 30, 2019 00:41
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Discendo Vox posted:Your response is either internally contradictory or ignorant, and I can't tell which. Are you sure you know what Citgo is? Again I suspect you have a more specific question in mind, if you’d like to ask it I’ll try to answer it.
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Apr 30, 2019 00:50
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Ruzihm posted:if russia forbade venezuela from selling bonds in their markets that would be bad, yes So, I think the bond sanction (we're talking the pre late 2018 one, yes?) was probably more harmful than helpful, but this is a misrepresentation of its function and intent, which were sneakier, more clever, and more interesting than that. which reminds me, I still need to reexamine that paper, because it is absolutely 100% going to be cited by Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Apr 30, 2019 |
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Apr 30, 2019 00:55
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Pharohman777 posted:Don't the Russians and Chinese now own some of those reserves since Venezuela defaulted on loans that had those as collateral? You seem to be perfectly fine with their theft. The United States, Russia, and China are the primary foreign owners of oil reserves/oil rights in Venezuela yes. The Chavez administration did a relatively minor amount of sell-off, the Maduro administration has done much more.
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Apr 30, 2019 00:56
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Kobayashi posted:Well sure, there was a little back and forth on sanctions that may have across as a bit repetitive, but for the record I'm opposed to all US intervention in Venezuela. Setting aside the absurdity of your frame of "I can only talk about the US because I live there" in evaluating...anything anywhere, let alone specifically with regard to Veezuela, in the Venezuela thread, action or inaction in any area that effects Venezuela still has causal and ethical ramifications. Citgo is a form of intervention. The existence of an international oil market is a form of intervention. USAID is a form of intervention. This isn't some deep insight, this isn't some new question, it's the same thing that's been pointed out in this relation time and time again. Your frame is applied selectively and exclusively to US actions that oppose Maduro's abuse of power. You don't care about the actions that help him...because ultimately, you don't care about Venezuela.
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Apr 30, 2019 00:59
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Kobayashi: assuming you're not being snide, foreign comparisons in terms of "I think this is relevant to Venezuela and this is how" are pretty okay. The problem isn't the comparison, it's the derail, but if you and/or your interlocutors can go "I think we're getting a bit far afield here, let's return to Venezuela" then it's probably a good contribution!
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Apr 30, 2019 01:07
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uninterrupted posted:You're right, he did win his elections, and it's kind of silly to say elections don't count because some politicians, who have in the past as well as currently plan to overthrow the elected president and appoint an unelected one, decided not to run. They do count, but what they actually represent does change under those conditions. For instance, If Trump won with 65% of the vote in 2020 during a U.S. presidential election where most of the Democratic leadership and electoral base had decided to stay home (while other potential candidates weren't allowed to participate due to a series of questionable administrative and/or judicial decisions)...I'd also consider him to be legally elected yet lacking sufficient legitimacy. I wouldn't deny that he has many supporters, but I'd question his authority. I don't believe Guaido is the solution for Venezuela and disagree with military coups, both as a matter of principle and because history shows they can lead to various nightmarish scenarios in terms of human rights and political freedoms in practice, but I do think civil disobedience is entirely justified when the government's legitimacy is lacking, at least until another set of elections can take place under hopefully different circumstances. quote:Hm, yes, poor people should only be allowed to have guns once they display appropriate levels of fealty to the rich. Love how right wingers support gun rights except when the brown people they wanna murder have them. I don't support the NRA or U.S.-style gun rights for most countries either, so that's a miss on your part. No, I don't think that plan was a good idea. One, it probably wouldn't work. Two, it'd spark violence and abuses. wielder fucked around with this message at 01:21 on Apr 30, 2019 |
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Apr 30, 2019 01:18
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Kavros posted:What I am displeased with is that there is a severely creepy and paternalistic racism burrowing through your scattershot desperation to derive simplistic, villainous interpretation of the motivations of people you disagree with, and after a few pages of watching you broadcast your 'ironic' racism tells, in part while trying to explain venezuelan race issues to venezuelans, I am advising adamantly that you should not continue to post creepy racist poo poo as part of that effort, and absolutely do not use slurs. I get to be exposed to enough of that already on sites that aren't supposedly trying to curtail it. Again, I get it, you're upset I, unlike you, am not crazy pumped about the US starving a country to death, so you're resorting to vague accusations of racism. Given how right-wingers like you are attacking Rep Omar using the cover of racism I can't say I'm surprised. Post something to do with Venezuela or stop posting, the anti-leftist tone arguments are repetitive and don't further the conversation. wielder posted:They do count, but what they actually represent does change under those conditions. For instance, If Trump won with 65% of the vote in 2020 during a U.S. presidential election where most of the Democratic leadership and electoral base had decided to stay home (while other potential candidates weren't allowed to participate due to a series of questionable administrative and/or judicial decisions)...I'd also consider him to be legally elected yet lacking sufficient legitimacy. I wouldn't deny that he has many supporters, but I'd question his authority. Cool, you're against democracy. Unsurprising, the opposition has historically been against democracy, refusing to participate in elections in lieu of attempting to overthrow the government and install unelected officials, or shut down industry while attempting to starve the country. wielder posted:No, I don't think that plan was a good idea. One, it probably wouldn't work. Two, it'd spark violence and abuses. So christ, how much more do you need to here before you understand Guaido taking power would be an obvious net negative for Venezuela, like every single other regime the US has overthrown since arguably Japan.
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Apr 30, 2019 01:34
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uninterrupted posted:Cool, you're against democracy. Unsurprising, the opposition has historically been against democracy, refusing to participate in elections in lieu of attempting to overthrow the government and install unelected officials, or shut down industry while attempting to starve the country. No, that is not equivalent to calling for the violent overthrow of a government and the installation of unelected officials. Certainly, there are people who will either combine or confuse the two, but it's not the same thing. Last time I checked, promoting civil disobedience is not being against democracy. It's about underlining the fact that there are flaws affecting the legitimacy and quality of said democracy due to either structural conditions (racial discrimination and gerrymandering within the United States, for instance), or protesting against specific officials, procedures, regulations and institutions within a given country (for instance, Trump's immigration policies or Maduro's treatment of the opposition). You seem to believe that the measures taken by the Maduro administration are either fair and free from criticism or at least not significantly responsible for making the situation worse. That is definitely open to debate. Look, the Venezuelan opposition is not a monolith. It is a mix of various different sectors with their own ideas and methods concerning what should be done, including a few that I would call disgusting, irresponsible or morally questionable. I think that much should be obvious to anyone who has been following the matter for a while. However, that absolutely doesn't mean nobody has the right to oppose or criticize Maduro through different means. quote:So christ, how much more do you need to here before you understand Guaido taking power would be an obvious net negative for Venezuela, like every single other regime the US has overthrown since arguably Japan. Considering that I am neither defending nor promoting Guaido here, much less a U.S. military intervention, that's besides the point. I do not believe, however, that Russia and China backing Maduro will lead to a net positive either.
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Apr 30, 2019 02:06
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wielder posted:No, that is not equivalent to calling for the violent overthrow of a government and the installation of unelected officials. Certainly, there are people who will either combine or confuse the two, but it's not the same thing. Given the only concrete position you have here is 'leftists need to justify why they support Maduro, while right-wingers who support the US actively starving people can just hang', yes, you are defending Guaido. In spending all your time attacking the Maduro regime, while providing justification for a US intervention and leaving them blameless, you have become an interventionalist. As Marx observed of the French royalists who ridiculed the Republic, they, through tacit support of republican policy between veiled references to restoring the monarchy, became republicans. As opposed to decieving the thread by pretending to be a non-interventionalist, you are decieving yourself, and your inner non-interventionalism masks to yourself your true social role.
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Apr 30, 2019 02:27
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uninterrupted posted:Again, I get it, you're upset I, unlike you, am not crazy pumped about the US starving a country to death, so you're resorting to vague accusations of racism. Given how right-wingers like you are attacking Rep Omar using the cover of racism I can't say I'm surprised Oh, yikes. It's not a vague accusation of racism. You using racial slurs 'ironically' while also going on a bender to paternalistically erase lived experience of venezuelans you most certainly are not and cannot represent is not vague, hard-to-pinpoint racism. Nobody forced you to type out those words. It's out there for everyone to see. Accusing a woman of color who campaigned for Omar of being a right winger who attacked her under the 'cover of racism' is the 'garbage out' part of your ideological GIGO that additionally shows you trying to pull the subject matter away from venezuela centric matters to be more about your US-centric crusades. Just stop, rather than tripling down and coming up with deflections for yourself.
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Apr 30, 2019 02:27
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Kavros posted:Oh, yikes. It's not a vague accusation of racism. You using racial slurs 'ironically' while also going on a bender to paternalistically erase lived experience of venezuelans you most certainly are not and cannot represent is not vague, hard-to-pinpoint racism. Nobody forced you to type out those words. It's out there for everyone to see. Accusing a woman of color who campaigned for Omar of being a right winger who attacked her under the 'cover of racism' is the 'garbage out' part of your ideological GIGO that additionally shows you trying to pull the subject matter away from venezuela centric matters to be more about your US-centric crusades. He's not arguing in good faith. He has never been arguing in good faith. Report and move on.
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Apr 30, 2019 02:34
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Kavros posted:Oh, yikes. It's not a vague accusation of racism. You using racial slurs 'ironically' while also going on a bender to paternalistically erase lived experience of venezuelans you most certainly are not and cannot represent is not vague, hard-to-pinpoint racism. Nobody forced you to type out those words. It's out there for everyone to see. Accusing a woman of color who campaigned for Omar of being a right winger who attacked her under the 'cover of racism' is the 'garbage out' part of your ideological GIGO that additionally shows you trying to pull the subject matter away from venezuela centric matters to be more about your US-centric crusades. "Stop tripling down on your arguments, as a WOC I assure you Venezuelans love garbage water and US purchased molotov cocktails!" Stop getting upset I'm pointing out you and other posters weird obsession with China and Russia being Wildly Evil as opposed to the Nobel and Good White American Elliot Abrams. There's no 'ironic' racism, there's actual posters here racist against Russian and Chinese people; I'm just pointing it out. Both countries have been, in every single measure, better for Latin American than the US.
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Apr 30, 2019 02:51
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Speaking of bad outcomes. When is Venezuela, and the world at large, really, going to address the elephant with a shotgun in the room? Venezuela's crisis is mostly petrol related. Even if they somehow restart the petrol trade to what it was before *and* price climbs back up to where it was a few years ago, the world needs to transition off fosil fuels in under 20, ideally under 10 years. What then? Afaik Chavez hasn't achieved anything to prepare for this scenario, even though the topic is like 50 years old now. Maduro mismanagement + price plummeting accidentally caused a cold turkey and it showed the country isn't even remotely ready for this poo poo. What's PSUV & co. stance on this issue? And the opposition's? This is likely going to be the biggest issue going forward, and it hasn't even been mentioned yet, apparently. 
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Apr 30, 2019 04:58
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Discendo Vox posted:Setting aside the absurdity of your frame of "I can only talk about the US because I live there" in evaluating...anything anywhere, let alone specifically with regard to Veezuela, in the Venezuela thread, action or inaction in any area that effects Venezuela still has causal and ethical ramifications. Citgo is a form of intervention. The existence of an international oil market is a form of intervention. USAID is a form of intervention. This isn't some deep insight, this isn't some new question, it's the same thing that's been pointed out in this relation time and time again. Your frame is applied selectively and exclusively to US actions that oppose Maduro's abuse of power. You don't care about the actions that help him...because ultimately, you don't care about Venezuela. This is an argument for imperialism – the US interfering in markets to further its agenda, which I oppose. For the record I am also an anti-capitalist, but now we're not really talking about Venezuela anymore, and I already ate a probation for that.
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Apr 30, 2019 06:13
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Kobayashi posted:This is an argument for imperialism – the US interfering in markets to further its agenda, which I oppose. For the record I am also an anti-capitalist, but now we're not really talking about Venezuela anymore, and I already ate a probation for that. The US has to recognize *someone* as the government of Venezuela. That's how states work. Who should the USA recognize, in your view, and why? Because a whole lot of legal implications flow from recognition.
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Apr 30, 2019 06:26
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Inaction also produces causal consequences and moral entailments. Do I have to walk you through the trolley problem?
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Apr 30, 2019 06:28
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“Recognize” is doing a lot of work here, and as you say is hardly a phenomenon unique to Venezuela.
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Apr 30, 2019 06:28
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hello people of the venezuela thread I have seen your reports and probations are in queue for those of you on this particular titanic please see your nearest musician for a copy of Gloria al Bravo Pueblo
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Apr 30, 2019 06:33
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Discendo Vox posted:Inaction also produces causal consequences and moral entailments. Do I have to walk you through the trolley problem? Yes the most ethical way to proceed would be to act, by offering no strings attached food and medicine to the people of Venezuela. Inaction would be preferable however to deliberately worsening their starvation and desperation to get them to overthrow their government. Discendo Vox posted:But let's talk about US interests in Venezuela, because those interests also aren't homogenous. US interests in Venezuela vary depending on the actors involved, and encompass a range of motivations and areas. I'll skip over altruistic, multilateral and ideological commitments to human rights, and free and fair governments, etc because there's enough naive neorealist theory swimming around here that I don't think I'd get anywhere with explaining their role in this situation. You've gone very wrong somewhere if you think a commitment to human rights and free and fair governments is an even minor motivating concern within the US foreign policy elite, as evidenced by the totality of US history. Should have skipped mentioning that bullshit altogether.
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Apr 30, 2019 06:51
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Kobayashi posted:“Recognize” is doing a lot of work here, and as you say is hardly a phenomenon unique to Venezuela. The government of the US has to pick who it thinks is the legitimate government of Venezuela. Who do you think they should recognize, and why?
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Apr 30, 2019 07:30
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Guaido has cast the die. Just woke up, but I'm seeing that La Carlota military base in Caracas is under the control of a group of rebel forces. Guaido is there with Leopoldo Lopez, who has been freed. There are some National Guard soldiers and SEBIN officers with them. Guaido with Lopez: https://twitter.com/leopoldolopez/status/1123169379661819904 Lopez: "To our brothers in the national armed forces: the time has come" https://twitter.com/el_pais/status/1123175817201078272 EDIT: Diosdado Cabello was just speaking via telephone on the TV. He called on all Venezuelans to go to the Miraflores Palace to defend Maduro and the revolution. He says that La Carlota is not under the control of the rebel forces. He says there will be an "overwhelming response" from the government against the rebels. Video of rebel soldiers setting up a machine gun on an overpass: https://twitter.com/NTVzla24/status/1123179328978792448 Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 12:13 on Apr 30, 2019 |
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Apr 30, 2019 11:52
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Yeowch!!! My Balls!!! posted:and we know for certain Guaido and his people consider working with war criminals whose solution to recalcitrant Latin American populations involves mass graves of the suspiciously dark-skinned totally unworthy of any discussion.
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Apr 30, 2019 12:32
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