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food court bailiff posted:This is super fascinating. As someone who has been messing with ASL SK1 and really liking it since like....Friday, do you have any insight on MMP as a company? In the early 90s Avalon Hill - the publisher of SL/ASL - was in the process of evaporating and they sold the rights to MMP, a start-up set up to continue producing ASL stuff. Curt Schilling, a pro baseball pitcher with money who liked ASL, bought into MMP to help keep it afloat. Schilling is an outspoken right-winger who claims that being a Republican kept him out of the Hall of Fame, doesn't like Muslims, doesn't like Trans* people, doesn't like Hillary Clinton, doesn't like Evolution - the list goes on and on. He's hardcore right-wing. Now, does that make MMP fascists? No. But it makes one of their owners an rear end in a top hat, and it leads me to suspect that they aren't exactly rushing to reevaluate the relative prowess of the Soviet Army and Waffen SS.
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Apr 30, 2019 18:13
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Goddamn, seriously? I loving hate Curt Schilling and he keeps sticking his rear end into otherwise good things. I even enjoyed Kingdoms of Amalur (when I got it for $1, because it was on a huge fire sale to claw back any kind of money, because Schilling basically defrauded the state of Rhode Island to get it made). Ugh.
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Apr 30, 2019 18:17
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Mors Rattus posted:is it possible to have a comfortable jackboot Nah, the discomfort promotes extra cruelty
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Apr 30, 2019 18:18
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Yeah, sorry. Add it to the reasons I dislike ASL.
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Apr 30, 2019 18:21
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Cessna posted:Schilling is an outspoken right-winger who claims that being a Republican kept him out of the Hall of Fame, doesn't like Muslims, doesn't like Trans* people, doesn't like Hillary Clinton, doesn't like Evolution - the list goes on and on. He's hardcore right-wing. For fun: Twitter won't treat fascism like other extreme ideologies because any algorithm would catch elected Republicans, too.
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Apr 30, 2019 19:09
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Halloween Jack posted:I don't think we need to agonize even a little bit over whether someone is explicitly a fascist. There's a point where we should stop giving people our patronage, and it's well short of SS tattoos. Schilling sounds like a real scumbag. Yeah. I guess I'll keep my eyes peeled for used ASL stuff. It's not like it's even possible to buy the rulebook right now anyway 
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Apr 30, 2019 19:16
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Halloween Jack posted:I don't think we need to agonize even a little bit over whether someone is explicitly a fascist. I'm not agonizing at all, I called him an rear end in a top hat a couple of posts ago. I already didn't like ASL, him being involved makes sure I won't reconsider.
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Apr 30, 2019 19:19
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I listened to a lot of Luetin09's Warhammer 40k lore videos when I was beginning to get into things. He never struck me as fash, but is he actually ok?
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Apr 30, 2019 19:24
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On the topic of bullshit elite waffen-SS, aparrently in the upcoming Late War Flames of War v4 expansions, they will be Aggressive (easier to hit) and Green (less likely to successfully do anything more complex than move and shoot, but will be fearless (less likely to flee). Contrast this to v3, where they were inevitably fearless veterans with special snowflake special rules out the rear end. Battlefront good, Flames v4 good.
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Apr 30, 2019 19:30
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Gaussian posted:I listened to a lot of Luetin09's Warhammer 40k lore videos when I was beginning to get into things. He never struck me as fash, but is he actually ok? I think ArchWarhammer is the lovely bigoted "might as well be fash" lore channel that people should be warned about
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Apr 30, 2019 19:31
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Geisladisk posted:On the topic of bullshit elite waffen-SS, aparrently in the upcoming Late War Flames of War v4 expansions, they will be Aggressive (easier to hit) and Green (less likely to successfully do anything more complex than move and shoot, but will be fearless (less likely to flee). That sounds like a decent evaluation.
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Apr 30, 2019 19:36
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Well that was an interesting few pages. Glad this is on track again. Interesting stuff Cessna. Do you have more insight into the lovely gear the Germans had? I always heard they had the best equipment and it's interesting to find out that in many ways that was incorrect.
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Apr 30, 2019 19:48
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Cessna posted:It's typical of ASL/Squad Leader's 1970's roots in 1970s historiography. "Germans are elite, Waffen SS are EVEN MORE elite." But reality doesn't line up with this viewpoint. One of the recurring features of ASL Annual was the designers of the new expansions talking about their justifications for exactly why each nation got their counters and special rules. (The one on the Japanese is perplexing, opening with a very frank discussion of how the stereotypes of Japanese soldiers rooted in a particularly extreme form of dehumanizing racism, then goes on for about a page justifying everything in what seems like stereotype...) In any case, no such article was written for the preexisting nations (except for the US' new USMC counters), but John Hill himself wrote an article for Annual 89 titled The Evolution of Small Unit Tactics: A Historical Commentary on SQUAD LEADER. And 1970s historiography is certainly one word for it... It basically fellates the Germans for inventing modern small unit tactics while namechecking Rommel and his "amazingly cogent study of small units of squads", and on the subject of Soviet hordes: John Hill posted:Over in Russia, things were somewhat simplified. Tactics were basically of two types: you either attacked or you defended. If you were defending, you simply stayed where your officer put you until the enemy was defeated, your officer ordered you elsewhere, or you were dead. One the attack, you charged, closed with the enemy, and killed him. Or you died trying. There was only one accepted excuse for failure, your death. Needless to say, this system does indeed explain to a large extent why the Russians had the largest casualty rate of any of the European participants. John Hill posted:At that signal, there would be rampant cheering and shouting to make sure everybody knew "this was it" and then the first wave would jump to their feet and make a mad charge for the German machine guns, firing and yelling as they went. Simultaneously, the second wave, with the regimental commander, would join in with their mad rush, hoping to reinforce any "success" of the first wave1. [...] The Russians, once the attack did begin, were were violent in its execution and cherished the time factor as much as the Germans. [...] 1: On the previous page, Hill praised the Germans for a system wherein after the first line of troops has engaged the enemy, more troops are brought up to press the attack.
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Apr 30, 2019 19:50
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I had no idea the Nazis invented the concept of "reinforcements."
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Apr 30, 2019 19:58
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I'm pretty sure, they don't have footnotes, but I think most of the old Flames and wargames stuff that lionizes the SS probably comes from the hagiographies put out by HIAG after WWII. HIAG was like the VFW for former members of the SS and they exerted some influence in West Germany, mostly through lying to politicians about their membership numbers. They put out a lot of meticulous documentation of every SS unit and the SS itself omitting all their warcrimes and pushing their, "tough men, making tough choices," narrative. Before the fall of the Soviet Union it wasn't just as bad as interviewing former SS members and self published memoirs but a PR campaign by a political organization that printed its own books and wielded a relatively disproportionate amount of power in the early years of West Germany. I wouldn't be surprised if those books were still the biggest pieces on the SS since no one to me seems to want to touch that stuff anymore within the vein of pure military history.
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Apr 30, 2019 20:01
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The other thing about SL/ASL is that a lot of its design cues are taken from SLA Marhsall's 1947 book Men Against Fire, which famously claimed that only a tiny percentage of troops in combat actually fire their weapons with any effect (most preferring instead to go to ground or to take wild unaimed shots in the vague direction of wherever the threat is coming from), with the exception of crewed support weapons and troops with good leaders. So SL/ASL gives a lot of emphasis to the efforts of individual leaders and support weapons being extremely effective (and having detailed rules for carrying them, transfering them, fixing them when they break, etc) and units have to tendency to break and panic and become useless (unless one of those good leaders is with them, or runs over to them and rallies them up). All well and good, except Marshall's work has come under a lot of fire (heh) recently for its methodological deficiencies and has largely been supplanted by other explanations for how men behave and fight in infantry engagements, which means that all those zillions of pages of rules and charts and based on top of some very shaky assumptions.
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Apr 30, 2019 20:05
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I'm pretty sure Schilling has nothing to do with MMP anymore. He wanted to be a Videogames magnate which failed infamously and now he mostly whines how it hosed him when he isn't crying about how mean people are to conservatives. Even though he is kind of an example of why. Iirc it was during his loving over Rhode Island stint he broke ties with MMP. Since even in Hobby Games Hex n Chit historical wargames are like niche. (Just play original Squad Leader. Or go sci fi with Ogre. Or whine at anyone who will listen to get lots of those cool rear end minigames there used to be tons of back. I just got 2 solo Task Force games this week. One was still sealed. For almost 40 years.)
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Apr 30, 2019 20:09
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Resting Lich Face posted:Well that was an interesting few pages. Glad this is on track again. Interesting stuff Cessna. Do you have more insight into the lovely gear the Germans had? I always heard they had the best equipment and it's interesting to find out that in many ways that was incorrect. It really depends what side you want to start on. Supplying War (which also covers the pre and post war periods) is an excellent book on pure logistics. The Wages of Destruction is a macro-level analysis of the Reich economy, but it does touch on this here and there -- specific examples about the inefficiencies of bespoke armor construction are used, while acknowledging that the Reich never had enough steel to mass produce anyway, especially after Barbarossa cut off a major supplier. It goes over all levels of the war economy, but it's kind of scattershot in detailing specific things unless you know there is one Or hit the AskHistorians megathread (most of which is sourced, at least at the top level) to find reading material. If there's something in particular, I may be able to recommend something, or Cessna will. Finally, a thread where my MA in history can do something. Please ask about facist tendencies in the Roman Empire from 970 to 1100, since that's my area of specialty 
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Apr 30, 2019 20:33
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Resting Lich Face posted:Well that was an interesting few pages. Glad this is on track again. Interesting stuff Cessna. Do you have more insight into the lovely gear the Germans had? I always heard they had the best equipment and it's interesting to find out that in many ways that was incorrect. You know that Tiger Tank? The one that's just the omg bestest tank in the world to Wehraboos everywhere? This is a top-down view of how its road wheels were laid out:  Say you want to fix one of the inner road wheels, one of the ones closest to the hull. In order to remove it, you need to remove fourteen other road wheels. This is a T-34:  Say you want to fix one of the inner road wheels, one of the ones closest to the hull. In order to remove it, you need to remove one other road wheels. When I have more time (am not goofing off at work) I'll break down their feldbluse/jacket. It is a model of inefficiency. Captain Rufus posted:I'm pretty sure Schilling has nothing to do with MMP anymore. This came up on boardgamegeek and reddit when he was fired for anti-Trans tweets a couple of years ago - he's still involved with MMP as of then, and I haven't heard of any changes since. I could be wrong, if you have more up to date info I'd like to hear it. Cessna fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Apr 30, 2019 |
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Apr 30, 2019 20:38
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Did they have anything that was genuinely good besides the MG42?
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Apr 30, 2019 20:39
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John Hill posted:Over in Russia, things were somewhat simplified. Tactics were basically of two types: you either attacked or you defended. If you were defending, you simply stayed where your officer put you until the enemy was defeated, your officer ordered you elsewhere, or you were dead. One the attack, you charged, closed with the enemy, and killed him. Or you died trying. There was only one accepted excuse for failure, your death. Needless to say, this system does indeed explain to a large extent why the Russians had the largest casualty rate of any of the European participants. That's just laughable. Maybe - MAYBE - he could justifiably say that's the German stereotype of the RKKA in 1941. By 1944 the RKKA was running circles around the Werhmacht. They took the Nazis to school and beat them on every level. Cessna fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Apr 30, 2019 |
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Apr 30, 2019 20:41
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Kar98 was a good rifle. Some of their planes? Nothing the Germans made touches the T-34 for the brilliance of the design in my opinion.
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Apr 30, 2019 20:42
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Halloween Jack posted:Did they have anything that was genuinely good besides the MG42? Jokes aside, jackboots were decent footwear. They're thick leather and they wear like iron. That said, the hobnails are terrible - if you walk on a smooth surface (like a wood floor) you might slip and fall on your rear end.
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Apr 30, 2019 20:43
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Halloween Jack posted:Did they have anything that was genuinely good besides the MG42? This was pretty good.  
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Apr 30, 2019 20:43
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Cessna posted:That sounds like a decent evaluation. Plus "super mad about Waffen SS being lovely troops in v4" will be a convenient red flag.
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Apr 30, 2019 21:01
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Halloween Jack posted:Did they have anything that was genuinely good besides the MG42? Reversable camoflague smocks were pretty clever. I'm sure the dye gave you cancer or something, though.
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Apr 30, 2019 21:04
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Kar98 was a good rifle. Some of their planes? The 88 was good (gun, not ju), but not markedly better than equivalents. It was extremely versatile and reliable, at least, unlike the rest Most of the luftwaffe was hopelessly outmatched by 1943 and they knew it
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Apr 30, 2019 21:05
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This headline in the HIAG Wikipedia article is incredible Right-wing extremism? In the paramilitary arm of the Nazi party? 
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Apr 30, 2019 21:06
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Geisladisk posted:Plus "super mad about Waffen SS being lovely troops in v4" will be a convenient red flag. Unfortunately, in an interview on today's podcast of No Dice No Glory Pete Simunovich (one of their writers) revealed that the Waffen SS are getting their own book for v4. One step forward, one step back.
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Apr 30, 2019 21:06
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Kar98 was a good rifle. Some of their planes? They had good handguns too, although the best of them was the Hi-Powers they made in occupied Belgium, which was designed for the French by John Browning in 1927. The Luger is the iconic handgun, and is a nice pistol, but like Cessna notes about the rest of their gear, it is absurdly over-engineered and a huge pain in the rear end in the field.
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Apr 30, 2019 21:15
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If the transmission in a Panther breaks you have first lift off the turret, unbolt a massive amount of bolts, then lift off the entire upper hull in order to get to the transmission for repair or replacing.
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Apr 30, 2019 21:23
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Halloween Jack posted:Did they have anything that was genuinely good besides the MG42? Jerrycan.
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Apr 30, 2019 21:32
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I also forgot about their anti-tank weapons. I've read that the best Soviet anti-tank weapons were stolen German ones, though I don't know if that's true. Did the SS have better meth than the USAAF?
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Apr 30, 2019 21:33
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moths posted:Reversable camoflague smocks were pretty clever. I'm sure the dye gave you cancer or something, though. The were drastically over-engineered. To start with, those SS camouflage patterns required way too much work for their colors. They used pattern screen-printing and ink rollers - the "spring" side (green and brown) required three passes with screen printing, then the "fall" side (orange and brown) another three passes. Then a black ink pattern was stenciled over this. That's a HUGE amount of work for each piece of cloth. And - remember those internal suspenders I mentioned above? Every German feldbluse had a set of suspenders inside - between the wool and the lining - with complex specially sewn eyelets:  These were set up to hold four little aluminum hooks (two front, two back) that stuck through the feldbluse:  To hold up the equipment belt:  They did this so that the uniform would look clean and modern, not like those baggy WWI uniforms. But in practice this was a crappy system, so they started making another set of external suspenders out of leather to hold up the gear ("y straps"):  This is all well and good. But even though they started making those leather y-straps in early 1941, they kept making those internal suspenders for years. Sure, they simplified them, but they kept wasting fabric and leather on them until 1944. And here's the thing - with the SS smocks (whose camouflage patterns were patented so the regular army couldn't use them) they go on over the feldbluse, so there's no way to use the internal hooks/suspenders anyway:  Making the whole setup even more of a waste. Early SS smocks were intended to be worn over the equipment, so they had big pockets. This proved useless in practice - try getting your bullets out through a coat pocket - so they were dropped in later models. But they also had pockets which were stuck under those y-straps, making them useless. And keep in mind that feldbluse had four front pockets (chest, waist) which were now under the smock, which made them useless as well. And the "service shirt" under that had two pockets, also made useless by the feldbluse. So - your SS guy is wearing a t-shirt. Over that he has a "service shirt" with two pockets he can't use. Over that he has a feldbluse with four complex pockets he can't get to. Over that he's wearing a smock with reversible pockets he can't get to because he's wearing suspenders that cover them. All of those pockets are wasted fabric and labor. And it's like this with EVERYTHING they made. Just useless wasted labor that would be eliminated by anyone who thought things through. Also, check out their helmet covers:  Yes, that's an SS soldier on the cover of old Squad Leader. Look at the stitching on the side:  That flat rectangular panel is a specially sewn piece of cloth. Each helmet cover has three little springs - back and sides - that pull aluminum hooks that clip onto the helmet. The hooks are also reversible. Think about that for a second. It's a helmet cover with three springs, three hooks, and specially sewn cloth covers for those springs and hooks. Does that sound like a waste of material and labor? Want to know how the British army made a helmet cover? Take a sandbag and tie it to your helmet with a piece of string, done. The US army did the same thing with netting. All of the German stuff is like this, ludicrously overwrought junk.
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Apr 30, 2019 21:34
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And now the discussion is about fascist gear in the forum about Trad Gaming
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Apr 30, 2019 21:41
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It's interesting and potentially useful information, "Superior engineering" is the first line any crypto-fash is going to throw at you.
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Apr 30, 2019 21:43
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FMguru posted:The other thing about SL/ASL is that a lot of its design cues are taken from SLA Marhsall's 1947 book Men Against Fire, which famously claimed that only a tiny percentage of troops in combat actually fire their weapons with any effect (most preferring instead to go to ground or to take wild unaimed shots in the vague direction of wherever the threat is coming from), with the exception of crewed support weapons and troops with good leaders. So SL/ASL gives a lot of emphasis to the efforts of individual leaders and support weapons being extremely effective (and having detailed rules for carrying them, transfering them, fixing them when they break, etc) and units have to tendency to break and panic and become useless (unless one of those good leaders is with them, or runs over to them and rallies them up). It's not even necessarily trying to model something realistic, as much as something that makes for a very fun and dynamic game: John Hill posted:Squad Leader was a success for one reason: it personalized the board game in a World War II environment. Take the “leaders,” or persons, away from it and it becomes a bore. Though this may sound surprising, the game has much in common with Dungeons & Dragons. In both games, things tend to go wrong, and being caught moving in the street by a heavy machinegun is like being caught by a people-eating dragon. Squad Leader was successful because, underneath all its World War II technology, it is an adventure game, indeed Dungeons & Dragons in the streets of Stalingrad.
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Apr 30, 2019 21:43
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My thing in wargaming is OCS, which is also made by MMP. It’s the game in my first post in this thread that had black SS counters. OCS, having been made after the archives opened and since it’s an operational game rather than a tactical game, tends to portray the capabilities of the sides better than ASL. Although the Germans do tend to be better than other sides, especially in Casr Blue/Guderian’s Blitzkrieg, there are many situations in which the Germans are qualitatively the same or worse than their opponents. This is true in the West for Tunisia II and Beyond the Rhine (the latter is basically the western invasion of Germany as he name suggests), but the same is also true for the Soviets, with many games showing late war forces like Baltic Gap (the pocketing of AGN), Hube’s Pocket and Hungarian Rhapsody (the invasion of Hungary and Budapest). The most recent OCS is Smolensk, which does feature SS forces. The game focuses on the defence of Smolensk during Barbarossa, and historically the Warren-SS forces were under equipped and undertrained, which is reflected in the forces you have during the game. They are still coloured black, however. I don’t think (at least when it comes to OCS) that MMP is slanted towards the German. I had also heard that Curt is not involved with the company anymore. I don’t mean to post this as apologia for the lovely things about ASL or the fact that there is low level fetishisation of the SS through the use of black counters, but I wanted to bring a perspective of how other games produced by MMP treat the war.
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Apr 30, 2019 21:45
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Halloween Jack posted:Did they have anything that was genuinely good besides the MG42? The Jerry can? Apparently they were quite good.
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Apr 30, 2019 21:51
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Cessna posted:The were drastically over-engineered. Isn't the same thing true of the stuff coming out of the US MIC these days as well? Presumably the Nazis did it for dumb ideological reasons rather than flat out corruption?
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Apr 30, 2019 21:52
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