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Joe Slowboat posted:Ellis' applicable works would be Planetary, Global Frequency, and various weird one-offs; he's more of an SFF writer but I would hugely enjoy if he wrote a wizard series, I'm sure. Let me introduce you to William Gravel, combat magician in the service of the SAS. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravel_(comics)
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May 1, 2019 14:51
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Captain Monkey posted:Yeah but Ascension was a lot more fun. The Euthanatos kick the Moros' rear end every single day in terms of theme and cool factor. The Euthanatos did get two homages in Awakening although neither were Path related. As mentioned above, they evolved into the Guardians of the Veil, but there was a more explicit homage in Legacies the Ancient - The Thread Cutters. https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Thread_Cutters They're even referred to as the "Euthanists."
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May 1, 2019 16:04
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edit: The Euthanatos ALSO kick the Acanthus' rear end in terms of theme and cool factor. The Tradition so cool they copied it twice.
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I was basing all of it on 1E as I have not read 2E Mage yet and i apologize for the confusion. I didn't realize they'd changed so much. Still gotta lotta love for the euthies though.
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May 1, 2019 16:15
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Captain Monkey posted:I was basing all of it on 1E as I have not read 2E Mage yet and i apologize for the confusion. I didn't realize they'd changed so much. Hell yeah. They're one of the best oMage Traditions. Malcolm Sheppard's revised tradition book for them is really good stuff.
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May 1, 2019 18:38
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Something I keep forgetting to bring up:quote:Hark ye yet again—the little lower layer. All visible objects, man, are but as pasteboard masks. But in each event—in the living act, the undoubted deed—there, some unknown but still reasoning thing puts forth the mouldings of its features from behind the unreasoning mask. If man will strike, strike through the mask! How can the prisoner reach outside except by thrusting through the wall? To me, the white whale is that wall, shoved near to me. Sometimes I think there’s naught beyond. But ’tis enough. He tasks me; he heaps me; I see in him outrageous strength, with an inscrutable malice sinewing it. That inscrutable thing is chiefly what I hate; and be the white whale agent, or be the white whale principal, I will wreak that hate upon him. Talk not to me of blasphemy, man; I’d strike the sun if it insulted me. For could the sun do that, then could I do the other; since there is ever a sort of fair play herein, jealousy presiding over all creations. But not my master, man, is even that fair play. Who’s over me? Truth hath no confines. Melville put a lot of Gnostic ideas in old Ahab's mouth. Now, I think Ahab's an Obrimos, but regardless, I don't think it can be doubted he's a Mage. So, my question is: what kind of Mysteries can really act like the White Whale, both symbolizing and antagonizing. Must such a mystery be a mobile Supernal Entity, or can we think of ways to drag a Consilium after the White Whale without it, yknow, actually moving? Bonus points if we have Exarch other than the Ruin to make the Whale holy to?
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May 2, 2019 03:24
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CottonWolf posted:Which is why we should all support the werespiders. They get balance. i played one of them werespiders back in the day. they were cool. had a trapdoor web under a gas station in the desert
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May 2, 2019 03:29
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NikkolasKing posted:I've seen how tough werewolves are and they have some pretty nifty abilities. But how precisely do they intend stop two incredibly powerful cosmic forces that have spun out of control? Even if they could wipe out every last agent of the Wyrm and Weaver, what does that actually accomplish? Bringing Gaia, the Wyrm, and the Weaver back into harmony requires a long and hard process of making the world a better place in order to starve the Wyrm and Weaver of the dysfunction and harm they feed on, changing them very slowly into better versions of themselves as a reflection of a better world. All your tools are ways to murder people very efficiently.
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May 2, 2019 03:53
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1994 Toyota Celica posted:i played one of them werespiders back in the day. they were cool. had a trapdoor web under a gas station in the desert That's super legit. Very the hillls have 8 eyes. Ananasi were a neat little redo of the triat, and the Ananasa lore was pretty entertaining.
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May 2, 2019 04:36
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Yeah in oWerewolf, there were a bunch of other shifter societies analogous to the Garou but with different missions. The Garou wiped a lot of them out and I think the only one that is still on "good" terms with the Garou are the Corax (ravens).
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May 2, 2019 04:57
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Wereravens and werespiders are both cooler than werewolves, IMO.
CottonWolf fucked around with this message at 08:57 on May 2, 2019 |
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May 2, 2019 08:52
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Nessus posted:Yeah in oWerewolf, there were a bunch of other shifter societies analogous to the Garou but with different missions. The Garou wiped a lot of them out and I think the only one that is still on "good" terms with the Garou are the Corax (ravens). The Gurahl (bears) still think of Garou as their terminally stupid younger siblings and would help if asked, which is the problem. Some werewolves are hip, most aren't (and it's hard to find a Gurahl anyway because, shock, the Garou killed most of them ages ago).
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May 2, 2019 13:45
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I mean, the story of the War of Rage is basically "all of the Fera act in the most terminally idiotic fashion and blame the Garou, noted mainly for getting angry, for being angry about it." It's the same thing with the War of Shame. The Bunyip behaved in a way that one would only do so if you wanted the rest of the Garou nation to wipe you out. because they needed to be wiped out so there would be white guilt and pathos. At least the Croatan accomplished something with their tribal sacrifice other than a gigantic umbral "I told you so."
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May 2, 2019 14:07
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The greatest (dumbest) part about the War of Rage is that the Corax worked both sides, and everyone still pretty much trusts them in the modern era. That said, the Corax and Ananasi are waaaay cooler than the Garou in almost every single capacity. But the Bastet are the dumbest line of shifters ever thought up. Including the extinct bat/pig/cow shifters.
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May 2, 2019 15:16
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Captain Monkey posted:But the Bastet are the dumbest line of shifters ever thought up. The kitsune have something to say about that.
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May 2, 2019 15:30
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Well, the Kitsune at least have a reason for being semi-redundant. They self-selected millennia after the fact and got drafted into the war. The Bastet were created as unspecialized generalists who mainly exist in the fiction to hate the garou because "cats and dogs lol" and be sexy cats.
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May 2, 2019 15:44
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Kurieg posted:It's the same thing with the War of Shame. The Bunyip behaved in a way that one would only do so if you wanted the rest of the Garou nation to wipe you out. because they needed to be wiped out so there would be white guilt and pathos. At least the Croatan accomplished something with their tribal sacrifice other than a gigantic umbral "I told you so." I'm sorry, but what the hell? Is white guilt seriously a metaphysical category? That's incredibly dumb and gross. "No, see, the indigenous people intentionally committed suicide by genocide by settler to teach the settlers a lesson" is just... gently caress.
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May 2, 2019 16:37
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Joe Slowboat posted:I'm sorry, but what the hell? Is white guilt seriously a metaphysical category? That's incredibly dumb and gross. "No, see, the indigenous people intentionally committed suicide by genocide by settler to teach the settlers a lesson" is just... gently caress. Not in character, but that is the reason it was done from the perspective of the writers out of game.
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May 2, 2019 16:49
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Kurieg posted:Well, the Kitsune at least have a reason for being semi-redundant. They self-selected millennia after the fact and got drafted into the war. The Bastet were created as unspecialized generalists who mainly exist in the fiction to hate the garou because "cats and dogs lol" and be sexy cats. Which gives the Bastet a better reason for being - i.e., Gaia's special forces - than their original reason which was to learn secrets. Not learn and then share them like the Corax because that's too useful and the Corax do that already, but just learn and squat on them.
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May 2, 2019 17:12
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Uh the were-bats loving ruled and I played one for three sessions when I was thirteen, thank you very much what was their deal again? I sorta remember "Gaia's Memory" but that was the Mokele's bit, yeah?
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May 2, 2019 17:20
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Joe Slowboat posted:I'm sorry, but what the hell? Is white guilt seriously a metaphysical category? That's incredibly dumb and gross. "No, see, the indigenous people intentionally committed suicide by genocide by settler to teach the settlers a lesson" is just... gently caress. The only book that has dealt with the Bunyip at length is Rage Across Australia. A book who's stated goals are basically Misery Tourism(The themes are "Strangers in a Strange Land" and "Guilt and Atonement"), talks at length about how much better the Bunyip were than any of the existing Garou(it posits that the Garou killed them because they were envious of their big black dongs), and makes some incredibly racist, misinformed, and "native exceptionalism" statements in the process(did you know that cereal grains are literally of the wyrm? And the reason none of them are native to australia is because the Aboriginals(lead by the bunyip) eradicated them all?). Digital Osmosis posted:Uh the were-bats loving ruled and I played one for three sessions when I was thirteen, thank you very much "Do the Corax's job in places what there are no corvids." basically.
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May 2, 2019 17:21
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Captain Monkey posted:The greatest (dumbest) part about the War of Rage is that the Corax worked both sides, and everyone still pretty much trusts them in the modern era. That's the beautiful thing about mercenaries and double-agents, you always know exactly where they stand: right behind the person who's holding the stuff they want. quote:That said, the Corax and Ananasi are waaaay cooler than the Garou in almost every single capacity. But the Bastet are the dumbest line of shifters ever thought up. Including the extinct bat/pig/cow shifters.  Shifters who change into prey animals rather than predators make no goddamn sense to me.
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May 2, 2019 17:26
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pseudosavior posted:
Getting scarily close to Beast territory here, but you could cover thematically similar ground by replacing the need to hunt with a different primal urge. Like maybe a were-stag is driven by the need to dominate and compete, like real stags do while rutting or something
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May 2, 2019 17:46
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That's a fair point regarding stags, and you could put pigs and some other defensive prey animals in that same boat, but were-cows? I mean, yeah, the ancient Aurochs aren't exactly "cows" as we know them nowadays, but still, it just seems... I dunno, a little goofy, and not in the usual semi-charming 90s White Wolf way.
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May 2, 2019 17:49
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Slimnoid posted:The kitsune have something to say about that. Ok, Bastet are second dumbest. Digital Osmosis posted:Uh the were-bats loving ruled and I played one for three sessions when I was thirteen, thank you very much Voice of Gaia, basically Corax but in the dark??? pseudosavior posted:That's a fair point regarding stags, and you could put pigs and some other defensive prey animals in that same boat, but were-cows? It doesn't make sense in the End Times when everything is war and fighting is the primary purpose of shapeshifters, but you have to remember that originally it was more about a spiritual connection and a oneness with the world/purpose. The Apis (auroch-shifters) were the midwives and psychopomps of the world, participating in the cycle of birth/death/reincarnation in mystical and important ways. The Grondr were garbage collectors, there to help make the world new again by removing detritus (bc lol pigs eat everything) to make way for new growth. You can't accurately judge the usefulness of a shifter in a world tainted by the Wyrm and Shifters full of Rage, which might be a manifestation of Wyrmy taint at the very core of the Garou/other shifters with Rage rather than a thing from Gaia. Yngwie Mangosteen fucked around with this message at 18:05 on May 2, 2019 |
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May 2, 2019 18:02
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pseudosavior posted:That's a fair point regarding stags, and you could put pigs and some other defensive prey animals in that same boat, but were-cows? NWolf has were-aurochs but they were driven to extinction mostly in prehistory, they had the urge to dominate and rule “herds” of humans and they were also very large.
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May 2, 2019 18:09
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Mors Rattus posted:NWolf has were-aurochs but they were driven to extinction mostly in prehistory, they had the urge to dominate and rule “herds” of humans and they were also very large. If you're thinking of the Sundered World's sun-worshipping Gudthabak, they first appeared, I believe, in War Against the Pure, reduced in population but surviving into the modern day. I Am Just a Box fucked around with this message at 18:14 on May 2, 2019 |
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May 2, 2019 18:12
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Er - yeah. Baal-Hadad exist in the modern day.
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May 2, 2019 19:12
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Kurieg posted:The only book that has dealt with the Bunyip at length is Rage Across Australia. A book who's stated goals are basically Misery Tourism(The themes are "Strangers in a Strange Land" and "Guilt and Atonement"), talks at length about how much better the Bunyip were than any of the existing Garou(it posits that the Garou killed them because they were envious of their big black dongs), and makes some incredibly racist, misinformed, and "native exceptionalism" statements in the process(did you know that cereal grains are literally of the wyrm? And the reason none of them are native to australia is because the Aboriginals(lead by the bunyip) eradicated them all?). Having dingle-dangle envy for Bunyip still gets me, and I did not believe it until somebody (probably you) showed the page.
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May 2, 2019 19:15
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Dave Brookshaw posted:Er - yeah. Baal-Hadad exist in the modern day. For someone who hasn't had a chance to read War Against the Pure, what are the sun-cows up to these days? (I have a natural affection for most solar worshipers, regardless of context)
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May 2, 2019 19:31
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Dawgstar posted:Having dingle-dangle envy for Bunyip still gets me, and I did not believe it until somebody (probably you) showed the page. The 90's really were a hell of a time.
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May 2, 2019 20:24
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Being huge assholes.quote:The Baal-Hadad — sometimes just called bullmen, other times allowing the vulgar minotaur to be used if sparingly — place themselves as the gods of various towns and villages that sit at the margins of any map. The world is a bad place, a dangerous cesspool with inequity at every turn. God, if such a character ever existed, has long left this world to its own devices, and that is simply unacceptable. The Baal-Hadad have chosen to take God’s place over the people, giving the herd fences from which they may not stray, and providing protection from the injustices of a rotten world. They watch over these small towns and hamlets, accepting sacrifices and worship from the people. They don’t bother with cities or suburbs that lie connected to the rest of society — such places are already lost to the sweeping cancer, and deserve nothing more than excision. quote:The townsfolk are expected to sacrifice to the bull-gods. Regular sacrifices, which happen monthly, are lesser: a burning pyre of wheat, a sack of recently beheaded chickens, a poem written in their honor. Those that happen yearly — or once every 10 years — are more extreme. Some farmers offer virginal daughters, others offer pints of their own blood or bottles of their tears. Every town member is expected to commit his own sacrifice at the proper times (usually on holidays such as harvests, solstices, equinoxes — and always under the noon-day sun). Even children are asked to give something to the minotaurs (though never large or dangerous sacrifices — those come later). Failing to sacrifice, or failing to appease with one’s sacrifice, is tantamount to a crime. Also, they make more of themselves by kidnapping wolf-blooded children and performing a rite that makes them into a bullman. They then get inducted into the cult of themselves. (They're pretty obviously inspired by the whole golden calf story from the Bible.)
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May 2, 2019 20:32
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They got a bit of an expansion in a story seed in the Sundered World that tells about their origins and potentially dovetails into their relationship with Helios later as an alternative to their old ways of procreation. There's a bit about their procreation that involves more of a bloody sacrifice from wolf-blooded (and presumably other shapechangers of power).quote:The bull-people dwelt somewhere to the east, born from the colossal, shattered horns of Bull itself from when it entered the world of Flesh and fought Wolf in a long, arduous battle. The god-ivory amidst which they dwell has diminished with the creation of each Gudthabak and now the bull-people have so little left that they fear for their future. To be fair to the Wise, Bull seemed to give his omphalos stone to them as a gift, even if they did reap a bunch of others from other Pangaeans. nofather fucked around with this message at 21:02 on May 2, 2019 |
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May 2, 2019 20:56
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I forget, are there were-elephants in oWoD? i'd want to play one of those i dimly recall the were-sharks, too man, they could just print supplement after supplement back then
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May 2, 2019 22:00
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1994 Toyota Celica posted:I forget, are there were-elephants in oWoD? i'd want to play one of those Owod, no. Nwod, yes and you feel compelled to gently caress them because they're so sexy.
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May 2, 2019 22:06
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Rokea in owod (weresharks) were a lot of "what if werewolves but basically worse 100% of the time without a dedicated campaign," and got a little bit more material in Blood-Dimmed Tides, the best worst owod book.
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May 2, 2019 22:13
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Kurieg posted:Owod, no. Nwod, yes and you feel compelled to gently caress them because they're so sexy. Okay, but do they have any notable supernatural properties?
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May 2, 2019 22:20
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Kurieg posted:Owod, no. Nwod, yes and you feel compelled to gently caress them because they're so sexy. That's not fair, Kurieg. You feel compelled to gently caress all shifters in Nwod.
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May 2, 2019 22:21
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Ferrinus posted:Okay, but do they have any notable supernatural properties? If memory serves the unique bonus they got was "You're a giant loving elephant man, what else do you want?" Ironslave posted:That's not fair, Kurieg. Stop kinkshaming me.
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May 2, 2019 22:30
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1994 Toyota Celica posted:I forget, are there were-elephants in oWoD? i'd want to play one of those The extant shifters in owod are limited to: wolf, big cats, hyena (counted sort of as a cat), bear, coyote, rat, raven, spider, lizard/croc, snake, shark. I maaaay have missed one in there, but don't think so. Extinct but specifically mentioned are: cow, pig, bat, turtle, thylacine, and possibly one or two insectoids, I wanna say praying mantis and ants, but I don't remember why I want to say that. Might be a memory from an old ananasi campaign with st-as-Anansa info dumps. Extinct but not mentioned: literally every animal had its shifter pre-both of the wars of rage. Spiders ate all the other arthropods in the first one, wolves ate all the rest in the second.
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May 2, 2019 23:05
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Captain Monkey posted:Extinct but specifically mentioned are: cow, pig, bat, turtle, thylacine, and possibly one or two insectoids, I wanna say praying mantis and ants, but I don't remember why I want to say that. Might be a memory from an old ananasi campaign with st-as-Anansa info dumps. I think bats were statted out in one of the WW20 books. But that might be the 'Insect Wars' where the spider guys ended up fighting the insect people (shifters?). Which included bees, hornets, ants, termites, and locusts. Also moths. https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Insect_Wars Find some weird things looking for inspiration for hosts.
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May 2, 2019 23:10
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