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The fact that all these coup attempts are so embarrassingly lovely and poorly organized is probably the biggest factor discouraging Maduro's people from defecting.
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May 3, 2019 02:17
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Irony Be My Shield posted:The fact that all these coup attempts are so embarrassingly lovely and poorly organized is probably the biggest factor discouraging Maduro's people from defecting. It's also a strong sign that the CIA is involved
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May 3, 2019 03:07
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But CIA was heavily involved in Ukraine's maidan as well, and that one was much more subtle and effective. Here they are making their intervention ridiculously obvious, and the failure only makes it worse.
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May 3, 2019 03:35
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GoluboiOgon posted:if the us can legally evict the protestors, why haven't they so far? now they seem to be stopping people from bringing food in, in an attempt to starve them out. (like they charged someone with assault for trying to throw bread into the embassy) if the cops felt they had a legal justification, why don't they just arrest everyone for trespassing? i have no idea about the legality, but the secret service is certainly not behaving like they have an ironclad legal basis on their side here. Because it's a bunch of people attempting to maximize media coverage of themselves getting "oppressed"? Like, the mechanics of this sort of civil disobedience activity aren't new. Just because they can shut them down doesn't mean they have to. GoluboiOgon posted:calling non-violent protesters "human shields for propaganda" is certantly a take. were the montgomery sit ins also "human shields for soviet propaganda?" even if you disagree with the politics of their decision, they are risking arrest and assault of their own volition, they could walk out at any time. by calling them human shields, you deny these people any sort of agency, as if telesur was some sort of mind-control ray. I...think you know the distinctions here, we've discussed them earlier. TeleSUR literally shipped some of these people to Venezuela and back and are setting up the press events.
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May 3, 2019 03:42
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GreyjoyBastard posted:I mean I guess the obvious (albeit not 1:1 for sure, Guaido probably isn't going to set up a rump state in the Amazon, nor is Maduro if he gets the boot) precedent is PRC-ROC, how were the embassies handled early on in that? Did the ROC keep their building and the PRC didn't get one until US recognition? The ROC kept their facilities. The ROC embassies and consulates changed their names to Taipei Economic and Cultural Representative Offices (for former embassies) and Taipei Economic and Cultural Offices (for former consulates). The PRC had to lease their own facilities. That's why, for example, in San Francisco the Taiwanese TECO/former consulate is centrally located in Chinatown, and the PRC consulate is in a really crappy area far from downtown called Western Addition next to Japantown. sincx fucked around with this message at 03:49 on May 3, 2019 |
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May 3, 2019 03:47
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Freezer posted:But CIA was heavily involved in Ukraine's maidan as well, and that one was much more subtle and effective. Maybe they let the interns handle it. (Or, given the CIA's past record, maybe Ukraine was the interns and Venezuela is the old guard)
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May 3, 2019 03:51
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sincx posted:The ROC kept their facilities. The ROC embassies and consulates changed their names to Taipei Economic and Cultural Representative Offices (for former embassies) and Taipei Economic and Cultural Offices (for former consulates). i stand corrected on an earlier post, guess I misread an article about it interesting!
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May 3, 2019 04:11
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Freezer posted:But CIA was heavily involved in Ukraine's maidan as well, and that one was much more subtle and effective. I mean, not really, it was just more subtle because they exploited an already existing border crisis and then dumped buckets of money/resources onto neo-nazis. It was still an absurd clowncar of a coup that the people didn't actually respect.
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May 3, 2019 04:15
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Darth Walrus posted:That's a lot of senior figures who were potentially on board with this. The Maduro regime is going to get a lot more brittle and paranoid, and the opposition and/or their US backers are going to be encouraged to push a lot harder next time. I see no reason to assume this'll be the end of it. Why would you trust any US commentary on this given the gutting of the state department? The US are headless chickens right now, it could be all their 'defectors' were talking to Maduro and the Military the whole time Ron Paul Atreides fucked around with this message at 23:40 on May 12, 2019 |
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May 3, 2019 04:33
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Freezer posted:But CIA was heavily involved in Ukraine's maidan as well, and that one was much more subtle and effective. Until it completely collapsed just recently? E: not collapsed but it's clearly showing signs of dysfunction. I think this is the signs of the times under the Trump state department. Influence games aren't fun and flashy and by abandoning them the current US regime has lost capabilities abroad to influence things
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May 3, 2019 04:34
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I feel like the CIA has always been pretty hilariously inept Maybe that's what they want you to think though; it's not as if we're privy to the operations that went well 
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May 3, 2019 04:42
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:Until it completely collapsed just recently? the Ukrainian people rejected our nazi puppets so hard they literally elected some guy who was on a sitcom running on 'I'm not a US funded nazi'. And that was, indeed, our most successful coup in AGES. It shouldn't be a shock how hard we beefed Venezuela.The only real interesting question is if our dude genuinely is so stupid he thought the army would defect en masse to join his noble crusade of 'MORE PRIVATE OIL COMPANIES' and 'gently caress THE SAFETY NET', or if he's just bilking Pence and Pompeo by doing poo poo like this every couple months to keep the money coming. It's probably a sweet scam tbh, the brutal dictator authoritarian in charge somehow hasn't put him in a death camp or whatever yet like actual brutal dictators do, he gets to just ride his scooter around in his CIA Asset Cosplay brand armored vest and get fawning articles about how badass and unafraid he is. sexpig by night fucked around with this message at 04:49 on May 3, 2019 |
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May 3, 2019 04:46
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sexpig by night posted:the Ukrainian people rejected our nazi puppets so hard they literally elected some guy who was on a sitcom running on 'I'm not a US funded nazi'. are you implying that Zelensky is not also a US funded nazi 
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May 3, 2019 05:36
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Well, if you define the goal Maidan as "helping the Ukrainian people improve their life" then it was mostly a flop, yes. If you define it as "loving with the Russians", then it was more of a success, now they have an openly hostile neighbor on their border and a bunch of ongoing sanctions. Then again, some argue that the Maidan shenanigans led to a pissed off Russia meddling in the 2016 elections. So yeah, long term a flop all around.
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May 3, 2019 05:50
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Flavahbeast posted:are you implying that Zelensky is not also a US funded nazi I thought he was the Russian funded Nazi. Aw beans am I mixing my Ukrainian puppet Nazis up? Classic blunder to make when talking eastern Europe politics in 2019!
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May 3, 2019 06:01
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If Americans really are/were in contact with a bunch of high ranking officials who were on the verge of jumping, repeatedly threatening to out them and put their lives in danger doesn't seem like a particularly good method of convincing future would-be collaborators in Venezuela and elsewhere to intrigue with us. I get the desire to tell them it's now or never, and to increase internal chaos in the regime, but it mostly just looks desperate and short-sighted to be having that conversation in public right after an abortive coup attempt.
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May 3, 2019 06:22
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Ron Paul Atreides posted:Why would you trust any US commentary on this given the gutting of the state department? The US are headless chickens right now, it could be all their 'defectors' were talking to Maduro and the Military the qhe tine Blumenthal sucks but lol https://twitter.com/MaxBlumenthal/s...ingawful.com%2F
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May 3, 2019 10:35
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sexpig by night posted:The only real interesting question is if our dude genuinely is so stupid he thought the army would defect en masse to join his noble crusade of 'MORE PRIVATE OIL COMPANIES' and 'gently caress THE SAFETY NET', or if he's just bilking Pence and Pompeo by doing poo poo like this every couple months to keep the money coming. It's probably a sweet scam tbh, the brutal dictator authoritarian in charge somehow hasn't put him in a death camp or whatever yet like actual brutal dictators do, he gets to just ride his scooter around in his CIA Asset Cosplay brand armored vest and get fawning articles about how badass and unafraid he is. This is why I’m skeptical of the official narrative that Maduro is some kind of brutal dictator. What kind of dictator allows an aggressive opposition that is clearly cooperating with the enemy, and even allows them to win a majority in parliament? What kind of dictator would allow the leader of the opposition to walk around freely after he in cooperation with the enemy have tried to take the presidency for himself? I also hear that the Maduro regime have responded brutally to the so called uprising, but 2 dead and a couple of hundred wounded? Given the circumstances that isn’t bad. Had the same thing happened in say the USA, the death toll would have been astronomical. (Maduro might be both incompetent and have some authoritarian streaks, but dictator is pushing it IMO)
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May 3, 2019 11:34
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Thlom posted:This is why I’m skeptical of the official narrative that Maduro is some kind of brutal dictator. What kind of dictator allows an aggressive opposition that is clearly cooperating with the enemy, and even allows them to win a majority in parliament? What kind of dictator would allow the leader of the opposition to walk around freely after he in cooperation with the enemy have tried to take the presidency for himself? I also hear that the Maduro regime have responded brutally to the so called uprising, but 2 dead and a couple of hundred wounded? Given the circumstances that isn’t bad. Had the same thing happened in say the USA, the death toll would have been astronomical. I agree with you on the surprise that Guaido is still allowed out and about — especially after the actual armed coup attempt a few days ago — and about the death toll being very low considering how many people were out and throwing rocks and whatever. I mean poo poo, 2 people dying out of like a million protesting? That's probably fewer deaths than would have been caused by traffic accidents if they had gone to work that day. Not that people should be shot for protesting or exploded by faulty tear gas containers, but it's also not enough to make me start calling Maduro the Butcher of Caracas or whatever. On the other point though, you're wrong about the "allows them to win a majority in parliament". Yes, the opposition did win a majority in parliament, but Maduro / the PSUV immediately (a) disenfranchised and removed enough elected officials such that the opposition was not allowed their elected supermajority, (b) changed the Supreme Court by removing old justices and adding in many new ones — without the normal legal process — which then became a rubber stamp that automatically struck down any law passed by the parliament (literally 99%+ IIRC, Chuck would know more), and then finally (c) he created out of thin air a constitutional assembly that he declared to have power over the national assembly, and declared anything from the national assembly null and void.
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May 3, 2019 12:06
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brugroffil posted:Blumenthal sucks but lol
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May 3, 2019 13:30
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FlamingLiberal posted:Love being reminded of how much of a dumbass Bolton is https://twitter.com/LucasFoxNews/status/1124287090605342720
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May 3, 2019 13:41
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"My fellow Americans, I'm pleased to tell you today that I've signed legislation that will outlaw Venezuela forever. We begin bombing in five minutes."
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May 3, 2019 13:46
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https://twitter.com/j_bigboote/status/1124097106212421632?s=19 US rule will be great
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May 3, 2019 14:02
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FFS, what are ‘military options’ in Venezuela? There’s no chance we put US troops on the ground. So I assume they will go with the lazy Syria model of bombing where they blow up one building with a cruise missile and then walk away
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May 3, 2019 14:17
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Gonzo McFee posted:https://twitter.com/j_bigboote/status/1124097106212421632?s=19 I'm sure maduro had it planted there
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May 3, 2019 14:18
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The PSUV governor of Miranda has fired Miranda State Police chief after his officers faced off against the colectivo armado that was shooting protesters in Chacao on Tuesday. In case you missed it, here's the colectivo shooting protesters on Tuesday (at least one protester was injured in the shooting): https://twitter.com/NTN24ve/status/1123365427722293248 And here are the Miranda State Police officers a short while later in a shootout with the colectivo: https://twitter.com/NTN24ve/status/1123289784888303616 Chuck Boone fucked around with this message at 14:21 on May 3, 2019 |
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May 3, 2019 14:19
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Gonzo McFee posted:https://twitter.com/j_bigboote/status/1124097106212421632?s=19 Jose posted:I'm sure maduro had it planted there Or, and stick with me here, we could do the barest minimum research and check his Wikipedia page quote:Leopoldo Eduardo López Mendoza (born 29 April 1971) is a Venezuelan politician and former political prisoner.[2] He co-founded the political party Primero Justicia in 2000 with Henrique Capriles Radonski and Julio Borges and was elected mayor of the Chacao Municipality of Caracas in the regional elections held in July 2000. He is the National Coordinator of another political party, Voluntad Popular, a Socialist International affiliated party, which he founded in 2009. López has received multiple awards from NGOs and other organizations for his activism. The dude is a very active political figure living under and imprisoned by what at the very least he considers a repressive regime. It's not surprising that he'd have the autobiography of the most famous dictator who ever lived. Hell, even just looking through the rest of the pile, I see a lot of economics, politics and philosophy. This is not surprising in the least, unless you're desperately searching for a scarlet letter to pin on the opposition because you can't handle the barest hint of complexity and need to force this issue into the easiest possible GOOD/BAD dichotomy to digest. Keeshhound fucked around with this message at 14:53 on May 3, 2019 |
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May 3, 2019 14:48
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i read mein kampf for the articles, I swear
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May 3, 2019 14:53
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Keeshhound posted:Or, and stick with me here, we could do the barest minimum research and check his Wikipedia page lmao
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May 3, 2019 15:13
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WhiskeyWhiskers fucked around with this message at 15:36 on May 3, 2019 |
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May 3, 2019 15:29
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I'm halfway positive I've still got a couple of copies of Mein Kampf still in the piles of books left over from my grad work, but tbf I'd be more horrified that the secret police would be unburying copies of Anthem and The Virtue of Selfishness as well.
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May 3, 2019 15:30
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Keeshhound posted:Or, and stick with me here, we could do the barest minimum research and check his Wikipedia page quote:During events surrounding the 2002 Venezuelan coup d'état attempt, NPR said Lopez "orchestrated the public protests against President Hugo Chávez and played a central role in the citizen's arrest of Chavez's interior minister", Ramón Rodríguez Chacín. Lopez later tried to distance himself from that event, maintaining his actions were meant to protect Chacín from an angry mob. love to protect government ministers by kidnapping them during a coup. even npr can't whitewash that bit away. quote:On 12 February 2014, López called on Venezuelans to peacefully protest against the Venezuelan government. The same day, Venezuelan prosecutors, after likening López and protesters to "Nazis", issued an arrest warrant for López on charges including instigation of delinquency, public intimidation, arson of a public building, damage to public property, severe injury, "incitement to riot", homicide, and terrorism. bold words from someone who just escaped arrest in order to hide in the spanish embassy.
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May 3, 2019 16:03
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Keeshhound posted:Or, and stick with me here, we could do the barest minimum research and check his Wikipedia page For context, this poster also believes the Soviet Union were the bad guys of WW2 (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 3, 2019 16:06
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Keeshhound posted:Or, and stick with me here, we could do the barest minimum research and check his Wikipedia page C'mon man....
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May 3, 2019 16:16
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Treating the fact that a political leader has a copy of mein Kampf as some kind of smoking gun that he's a total Nazi despite all of his career being the opposite is one of the dumbest arguments I've seen in this thread, and believe you me, there are some dumb poo poo arguments in this thread.
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May 3, 2019 16:25
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Hugoon Chavez posted:Treating the fact that a political leader has a copy of mein Kampf as some kind of smoking gun that he's a total Nazi despite all of his career being the opposite is one of the dumbest arguments I've seen in this thread, and believe you me, there are some dumb poo poo arguments in this thread.
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May 3, 2019 16:31
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Flayer posted:lmao are you for real? Lopez was reading Mein Kampf as research on Maduro?! While I'm not exactly inclined to defend or lionize Lopez and will stay pretty neutral on him, I could absolutely say that Mein Kampf, as part of a larger philosophical study of all things involving authoritarian creep and the rise of militant or nationalistic strongman factions in a society, is pretty drat relevant these days and could absolutely be said to be relevant to living in the situation the PSUV has been putting Venezuela through for years. I would actually even find it more relevant if you lived in a country where nativist sectarian populism is steadily eroding legal norms in favor of authoritarian cult of personality figureheads and/or republics steadily disintegrating under the weight of increasingly moblike political factions with no intent on preserving democracy. Like if you happened to live in the United States, for instance. It would make so much sense to have that book in your library as an instructive insight into the gently caress is going on. On top of that, I think anyone should be worried about even incidentally waltzing into the connotations of search and seizure of political activists by state agency (with a followup of attempting to use the materials found in such a manner to legitimize further action of a concerning nature). Like, just saying, this comes off like it's from the absolute wrong playbooks.
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May 3, 2019 16:32
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GoluboiOgon posted:bold words from someone who just escaped arrest in order to hide in the spanish embassy. I am shocked that he changed his mind after five years of imprisonment. I didn't say that he was brave, or even a good person. I said that it's pretty loving clear from even the briefest most surface level look into his history that the presence of Mein Kampf is not as clear an indicator of his beliefs as some people would like it to be.
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May 3, 2019 16:34
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Hugoon Chavez posted:Treating the fact that a political leader has a copy of mein Kampf as some kind of smoking gun that he's a total Nazi despite all of his career being the opposite is one of the dumbest arguments I've seen in this thread, and believe you me, there are some dumb poo poo arguments in this thread. I mean, violently kidnapping rivals 'for their own good' may not be literal nazi style but I dunno if you get to claim 'opposite'. Like, no one's calling it a 'smoking gun' that he's a deep cover nazi asset, no, but it is kinda funny. I have a copy of mein kampf too (I also strongly debate 'it's good for studying' because it fuckin sucks rear end and is really barely even a window into Hitler himself let alone any other leader) but it'd probably not be something easily found if someone tossed my house, I think it's probably in a box buried away in my pile of poo poo I mean to unpack but don't because it's not actually important.
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May 3, 2019 16:43
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Keeshhound posted:The dude is a very active political figure living under and imprisoned by what at the very least he considers a repressive regime. It's not surprising that he'd have the autobiography of the most famous dictator who ever lived. Eh. First of all, Hitler wrote Mein Kampf after being imprisoned by a Democratic state after attempting a coup with fascist thugs so idk if you really want to be resonating with that. Second, it is just a badly written trash book with nothing really original in it and even contemporary fascists thought it was boring. Also it's not, "the autobiography of" it's a grand conspiracy theory about the racial superiority of the Germans and that they only lost WW1 because of Communists and Jews. The autobiographical bit is pretty quick and he gets to Vienna and it gets all... 'the Jews are worse than the black plague.' Hugoon Chavez posted:Treating the fact that a political leader has a copy of mein Kampf as some kind of smoking gun that he's a total Nazi despite all of his career being the opposite is one of the dumbest arguments I've seen in this thread, and believe you me, there are some dumb poo poo arguments in this thread. It's not, but just lol that they have it. Like if you're a studying it for school fine whatever but it's not like part of a sane person's home library. Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 17:04 on May 3, 2019 |
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May 3, 2019 16:45
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