|
Elman posted:I mean we are talking about the show. There's certainly no hidden Targs and Robert did have a claim, even if it was a weak one. I mean I'd say this is the book barn so... Truthfully all this is baseless speculation until GRRM comes out with the laws and customs of Westeros sourcebook instead of writing Winds of Winter.
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 07:12
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 18, 2024 21:22 |
|
|
pseudanonymous posted:I mean I'd say this is the book barn so... Truthfully all this is baseless speculation until GRRM comes out with the laws and customs of Westeros sourcebook instead of writing Winds of Winter. It'll be called Come-Into-My-Castle
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 07:14
|
|
|
it'll be funny if varys and illyrio turn out to be Brighflame conspirators rather than Blackfyre conspirators "it turns out that the Dunk & Egg stories were directly driving the main series plot all along, you fools!!!" cackles GRRM's ghost PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 07:25 on May 9, 2019 |
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 07:16
|
|
|
Kylaer posted:They should have cast Idris Elba as Ned Stark, and left all the other casting choices and dialogue the same. Yes, Kit Harrington looks exactly like his father, everyone agrees on it. Nah Idris Elba should be cast as whatever character takes their shirt off the most. Or just a new character who never wears a shirt.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 07:59
|
|
|
PupsOfWar posted:hmm maybe Well, succession order only holds up until someone shows up with a massive army and/or dragons and proclaims himself/herself king. Which the initial Valyrian invaders demonstrated. Might makes right in a medieval world.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 08:02
|
|
|
pseudanonymous posted:I mean I'd say this is the book barn so... Truthfully all this is baseless speculation until GRRM comes out with the laws and customs of Westeros sourcebook instead of writing Winds of Winter. The laws are basically 'whoever can convince the most lords that they're the heir' though.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 08:03
|
|
|
Randarkman posted:
Ned and Howland and the others were actually invited in to see Lyana. I mean - what shithead knights would keep Ned away from his sister for no reason - they were no threat, and explained how Rhaegar hadn't done anything wrong. When Ned spoke to Lyanna, she looked so happy - that she had hosed the son of the king who tortured their father and brother to death - it was more than he could bear. Howland Warged into one of the kings guard, and then they both attacked the remaining Targaryens/Kingsguard. I don't know how Lyanna was killed, but I suspect it was somehow at Ned's hand. I don't know if Ned then killed Howland Reed as the last remaining witness, or somehow was assured of his loyalty - I suspect the former.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 08:07
|
|
|
MikeJF posted:The laws are basically 'whoever can convince the most lords that they're the heir' though. Exactly. People are spending way too long looking at this legalistically, when monarchs were fighting well into the modern period to make male primogeniture stick. In this time period, the only logic is this: 1) Do you have the rest of the nobility supporting you? 2) Do you possess enough military might to suppress any remaining nobles who would oppose you? 3) Do you have some vague connection that provides a pretext for your rule? 3 helps with 1, but it's essentially optional. 1 is also optional if you possess overwhelming force.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 08:28
|
|
Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
|
Gendry still makes a great puppet claimant for any faction who wants to see the Targs ejected again, especially in the long term. Kind of like how the Carlists IRL became less concerned with the legitimate heir to the Spanish throne and more with an overall political vision.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 08:41
|
|
|
PupsOfWar posted:it'll be funny if varys and illyrio turn out to be Brighflame conspirators rather than Blackfyre conspirators Ehhhh, there aren't really Brightflame conspirators so much as one line. It's hard to imagine them being able to conspire, in so much as they lacked any power or established base whatsoever, given how easily Lil Maegor II got tossed over. In re: Succession Chat, Dany making Gendry Lord of Storm's End wasn't stupid because it undermines her claim, it doesn't, it's stupid because he's a dingus who doesn't know how to Knight or Lord and isn't from the Stormlands, and giving it to him means she can't use it as a bargaining piece to secure the loyalty of someone else who is actually good at those things and might have genuine popular/local support. What she should have done was make Gendry Royal Armorer and given him his own smithy within the Red Keep, and allowed him to make crap with whatever the equivalent of a Mark of Imprimatur is in Westeros. But if people are bound and determined to insist that it does undermine her claim, it actually becomes less idiotic as a move. I mean, it's still dumb in the sense of being a misallocation of resources, but it's one way of either likely getting him killed off without actually having to look like she's killing him off, and/or getting the kind of people who would try to use him in a conspiracy to depose her to reveal themselves. Even without trusting Gendry to make a competent double agent, she has enough savvy spymaster people to easily pull off using him as bait. I don't think the show writing is remotely close to clever in that regard, but seriously, it's a dumb plan because the show is dumb, not because it means he can pull a Gotcha! and take her before a Great Council or some poo poo.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 09:10
|
|
|
He's more a threat in the sense he's suddenly a legit claim that other lords could rally behind. You're right on Dany having a good spymaster/etc and that she could theoretically use him as bait, but as we know of both book and show Dany she has no loving clue how to handle the intricacies of politics and/or deception so it really depends on how much her council would want to keep her in power, which in the case of Varys atm (the spymaster in question) he's already ready to hop off her wild ride But yeah it's a dumb thing to argue at any rate b/c D&D surely don't care and just thought it would be a nice reward for Gendry and a way to make Dany seem semi competent by installing someone who will likely be loyal to her in Storm's End.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 09:22
|
|
|
I hope Varys ends up having some sort of agenda other than his "for the people" poo poo because if thats all hes about he looks like a goddamn moron. Im pretty sure the people were fine under King Robby Drunk AF and DTF Baratheon. Why would you disrupt the years of peace with entitled dumbass Viserys? Then your plan falls to poo poo and its a toss up between Serious Stannis and loving Joffrey and you side with Joff? Oh right he hates magic...totally worth keeping Joffrey in power. Then when its Tommens time he clearly knows Marg and Tywin are gonna keep him in check and the very most you'd need to do is take Cersei out of the picture but nope the queen who makes big shows out of helping the poor is just not good enough lets bet it all on the girl with dragons and the army of rapists. I cant wait till he finds out Jon abandoned Ghost and has another reason to jump ship to king Hotpie gently caress i hope hes a merman
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 09:30
|
|
|
There might be some value to in that lords of the Stormlands may be happier to accept a Baratheon instead of a rando, and the dingus part can be handled with a decent castellan. It also demonstrates to everyone else that she's going to respect existing bloodline holdings and titles.
MikeJF fucked around with this message at 09:50 on May 9, 2019 |
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 09:45
|
|
|
esperterra posted:He's more a threat in the sense he's suddenly a legit claim that other lords could rally behind. You're right on Dany having a good spymaster/etc and that she could theoretically use him as bait, but as we know of both book and show Dany she has no loving clue how to handle the intricacies of politics and/or deception so it really depends on how much her council would want to keep her in power, which in the case of Varys atm (the spymaster in question) he's already ready to hop off her wild ride I mean, the real "it fucks with her claim" argument against legitimization is just that any legitmization is no good, very bad, social order upending fuckery from the perspective of the entrenched aristocracy, which is why GRRM specifically had the absolute worst, shittiest Targaryen of them all be the one to literally kick off an entire war by doing it on his deathbed as a double-barreled middle finger to two whole continents. The whole "his claim rests on hers" is pretty much ironclad; no one is going to take a commoner bastard remotely seriously without extremely impressive backing, and the thing is, far more than the Targaryens, all these dudes have mistresses and bedwarmers and poo poo, probably every single one of them has a commoner half-brother or half-uncle running around who would have a better claim to their own personal keep if legitimization becomes common. Hell, there's that whole bit in the books where Tyrion almost bangs a girl who is probably his half-sister until he decides she's too emo.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 09:54
|
|
|
fwiw I only think it's a dumb idea/potential threat to her in the event she does defeat Cersei and become queen. Then he would be a potential legit claim against her when people realize dis bitch is nearly as crazy as the last queen was. But Dany having no heir opens it up to literally anybody being able to bring someone forward to put on the throne if they have enough power to take it in the first place. So it's a moot point. The reason people find it funny she did this in the show is b/c she's currently angsting about how Jon has a claim to the throne now, so it's funny to have her turn around and legitimize the son of the man who just reigned for a bunch of years.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 10:00
|
|
|
esperterra posted:The reason people find it funny she did this in the show is b/c she's currently angsting about how Jon has a claim to the throne now, so it's funny to have her turn around and legitimize the son of the man who just reigned for a bunch of years. Yeah, but Gendry's and Jon's are literally competing claims. Remove Dany from the equation, and Gendry and Jon's claims would be opposed because they're essentially the claimants of different dynasties. For Dany, the supremacy of the Targaryen Dynasty is supreme, and within that line of dynastic succession, a Baratheon is not a threat. Jon also has popular support that Gendry is never going to have; he knows how to Lord and he knows how to General, and he has an inherent base of support within Westeros in the North and now the Wildlings, who he (and not Dany) put in a position to be saved from the zombie apocalypse in the first place. The jury for us as the audience and book readers is also still kind of out on whether it's was Jon's Targ blood that let him ride Rhaegal, but the show wasn't subtle about Dany pulling his flappety-flap rights as soon as he started babbling about being Rhaegar's kid, so she clearly takes that part of his claim seriously in a way it's somewhat doubtful she'd be worried about from Gendry. I also think what the show might have been trying to do, and IDK whether it's Emilia Clarke or poor writing that's at issue here in how little it comes across, is portray Dany being as much afraid for Jon than she is of Jon. It's not that she legitimately thinks he can or will usurp her successfully, it's that she's worried she's going to be put in a position where she has to barbecque him. Her whole speech about how these things have a life of their own isn't the kind of thing you say to someone you genuinely think can take you out, it's something you say to a dumb teenager doing dumb teenager poo poo as their wary parent warning them about the dangers of peer pressure and falling in with a bad crowd.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 10:24
|
|
|
If this is setting up Cersei, Jon and Dany to all die and leave Gendry the One True King I will be so mad.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 11:54
|
|
|
if anybody can row Westeros into a bright new future without all these dragons and lions and wolves and night kings it's Gendry Ironhart, First of His name, King of the Andals and the First Men etc.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 12:02
|
|
|
HELLO LADIES posted:For Dany, the supremacy of the Targaryen Dynasty is supreme, and within that line of dynastic succession, a Baratheon is not a threat. Jon also has popular support that Gendry is never going to have; he knows how to Lord and he knows how to General, and he has an inherent base of support within Westeros in the North and now the Wildlings, who he (and not Dany) put in a position to be saved from the zombie apocalypse in the first place. The jury for us as the audience and book readers is also still kind of out on whether it's was Jon's Targ blood that let him ride Rhaegal, but the show wasn't subtle about Dany pulling his flappety-flap rights as soon as he started babbling about being Rhaegar's kid, so she clearly takes that part of his claim seriously in a way it's somewhat doubtful she'd be worried about from Gendry. Give me a break, Jon wasn't on that dragon because it was going to be shot down. Nobody pulled his wings. *edit why the gently caress was he ever riding the dragon anyway, he didn't do anything just hold on. It sure didn't seem like the dragons were taking commands or anything.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 13:11
|
|
|
pseudanonymous posted:*edit why the gently caress was he ever riding the dragon anyway, he didn't do anything just hold on. It sure didn't seem like the dragons were taking commands or anything. In a general sense I think they'll respond to the will of their bonded rider via psychic magic bullshit, although verbal commands are more specific. (A dragon will only ever have a single person as its rider, until that rider dies it'll never let anyone else on except as a backseat passenger. Dunno if Dany knew that.) MikeJF fucked around with this message at 13:45 on May 9, 2019 |
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 13:42
|
|
|
MikeJF posted:In a general sense I think they'll respond to the will of their bonded rider via psychic magic bullshit, although verbal commands are more specific. (A dragon will only ever have a single person as its rider, until that rider dies it'll never let anyone else on except as a backseat passenger. Dunno if Dany knew that.) That sounds like some Anne McCaffrey bullshit, but even her dumb dragon riders rode saddles and were all about straps and things.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 14:07
|
|
|
pseudanonymous posted:That sounds like some Anne McCaffrey bullshit, but even her dumb dragon riders rode saddles and were all about straps and things. It's the same bond the starks have with their wolves, except for the full-on possession part. I dunno if the old targs wore saddles, actually. Dany in the books isn't up to saddling yet anyway. It's kinda weird the show never did though. MikeJF fucked around with this message at 14:15 on May 9, 2019 |
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 14:12
|
|
|
No matter how psychically and/or magically bonded you are, it seems like Danny and Johnny should be spending most of their time hanging on for dear life if the dragon is doing anything other than flying slowly in a straight line. Any fight like we saw in ep3 would be impossible without a saddle of some kind. That's without taking into account the fact that it would be cold as hell up there. I realize this is extremely  and I don't actually care that the show ignores such things, but I felt like nitpicking.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 14:16
|
|
|
pseudanonymous posted:That sounds like some Anne McCaffrey bullshit, but even her dumb dragon riders rode saddles and were all about straps and things. Remember the scene where dragon rider A rode on Dragon B because dragon A was tired. Then she rode it too hard and during a teleport they vanished from existence. So dragon rider B and and Dragon A committed suicide together because they had both lost their bond mates.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 14:18
|
|
|
Why, the second Missandei was killed, did no one kill Qyburn?
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 16:14
|
|
|
thumper57 posted:Why, the second Missandei was killed, did no one kill Qyburn? Because the archers could've trivially killed all of them, Danny and her single remaining dragon at any time. It was a really dumb scene as shot.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 16:17
|
|
|
MikeJF posted:It's the same bond the starks have with their wolves, except for the full-on possession part. They did wear saddles! One died because his dragon was killed and crashed into the God’s Eye and he couldn’t get out.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 16:20
|
|
|
So here's my current status, I haven't seen seasons 7 or 8 but I've been spoiled on most of the major storylines and watched many clips on youtube of important scenes. My question is this: Is Euron Greyjoy as one dimensionally evil as he seems to be? He seems to be based more on book Victarion than book Euron, but has little in common with either.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 16:21
|
|
|
chaosapiant posted:So here's my current status, I haven't seen seasons 7 or 8 but I've been spoiled on most of the major storylines and watched many clips on youtube of important scenes. My question is this: Is Euron Greyjoy as one dimensionally evil as he seems to be? He seems to be based more on book Victarion than book Euron, but has little in common with either. I'm not sure if evil is the right word. Ruthless maybe? Does he go out of his way to do evil at the cost to himself or his cause? I mean he goes to great lengths to capture important characters alive where a notable evil character like The Mountain rapes and kills his prisoners for giggles. Euron even let Theon escape. Katt fucked around with this message at 16:31 on May 9, 2019 |
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 16:28
|
|
|
Katt posted:I'm not sure if evil is the right word. Ruthless maybe? Does he go out of his way to do evil at the cost to himself and his cause? Kinda? I mean that's exactly what Cersei is doing and he's following her.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 16:31
|
|
|
chaosapiant posted:Kinda? I mean that's exactly what Cersei is doing and he's following her. Euron himself seems surprisingly competent at whatever task he takes on. Winning practically every major fight he takes part in. When faced with Daenerys dragons and her entire army as well as the undead. He fakes cowardice very convincingly then goes off to pick up the Golden Company even when the odds are against Cersei.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 16:34
|
|
|
I'll need to actually watch the episodes I suppose to see how things play out. I'm starting the series over again with Season 1. He definitely seems competent but he's hard to relate to I guess. Cersei's hard to relate to as well, but she didn't start out that way and we have seen her journey into madness so her evil nature is understandable.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 16:51
|
|
|
Euron is a pretty bad character on the show, imo. Even his funny parts wear out fast edit: plus the casting choice was weird: he should be a lot older
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 16:56
|
|
|
Jim Carrey would make a good Euron. Anywho, is the Telltale GoT game any good? And is it even available anymore? The complete lack of good ASOIAF games is baffling.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 17:07
|
|
|
chaosapiant posted:Jim Carrey would make a good Euron. Anywho, is the Telltale GoT game any good? And is it even available anymore? The complete lack of good ASOIAF games is baffling. the telltale got game might be the worst telltale game. also euron is a massive disappointment in the show because in the books he was way edgier, he's meant to look like the frontman to an emo band not a vikings extra.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 17:18
|
|
|
chaosapiant posted:Jim Carrey would make a good Euron. Anywho, is the Telltale GoT game any good? And is it even available anymore? The complete lack of good ASOIAF games is baffling. Viggo Mortensen would be my choice of Euron. The Telltale game is terrible. You play as a totally-not-Starks family and the degree to which your choices don't matter is the most blatant it's ever been. At the end of the first episode, Ramsay asks to enter your castle under a flag of truce, and you can choose to let him in or deny him and parley at the gate. If you deny him, he magically appears inside anyway two minutes later. Cyanide's janky-rear end ARPG from 2012 was unironically a better game. It had mediocre gameplay, some poor quality environments, and ~~SECRET TARGS~~, but at least it had interesting set pieces and it showed basic respect for the player. edit: obligatory plugs for the CK2 mod:   
NihilCredo fucked around with this message at 17:40 on May 9, 2019 |
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 17:33
|
|
|
chaosapiant posted:So here's my current status, I haven't seen seasons 7 or 8 but I've been spoiled on most of the major storylines and watched many clips on youtube of important scenes. My question is this: Is Euron Greyjoy as one dimensionally evil as he seems to be? He seems to be based more on book Victarion than book Euron, but has little in common with either. Someone a couple pages back described Cersei as "Trumpian", in that she'll just ignore the unwritten laws of society and loving go for it, and that's pretty much the nucleus of this version of Euron, as well as being the nucleus of what makes book Euron a great villain. There's a lot more to him in the books, but the scariest thing is that he has the incredibly ruthlessness and disdain for society's rules that Roose and Ramsay has, but without the nihilism that comes from the fact that they're pretty much stand-ins for male-dominated warrior/conqueror societies vs (the worst aspects of) patriarchy, and the relationship between the two. Euron has actual plans for the future and goals beyond "continue being a cackling, nihilistic sadist for as long as you can hold on". Basically, yes, he's one dimensional, but I wouldn't call it evil per se, the same way Cersei isn't evil, just a deeply flawed human with motivations that aren't that too far off of, say, Tyrion's, just like Cersei's aren't that too far off of Dany's. They both just lack the veneer of self-righteous moral justification that doesn't actually line up with much of the reality. His misty motivation towards some kind of future glory obviously functions that way in the show, because he's an antagonist, but he's not a cackling sadist like Ramsay. It's definitely a piss poor performance by Pilou Asbaek's standards, but he's clearly doing his best to deliver what D&D want and chew all of the scenery.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 17:39
|
|
|
Viggo is a good choice, didn't think of him. As for games, i'm currently replaying The Witcher 3 for the fourth time, Kingdom Come Deliverance, the CoK mod for Mount and Blade, and the mod for Crusader Kings 2. The Witcher 3 is the best Game of Thrones game every made. Kingdom Come is drat close. I'm still trying to figure out how to play Crusader Kings, game is deep. I DO think that the Dunk/Egg stories (what I've read so far, I'm working through them now) would be easy to adapt well to an HBO series or even a movie per story. They have a much tighter character focus and a more broad appeal. Triple H could play Dunk. Also, as a collector of ASOIAF poo poo, is The Ice Dragon a good book? Or is it strictly a kiddy/children's book?
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 17:39
|
|
|
Mads Mikkelsen woulda been a kickin' rad book Euron, too.
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 17:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 18, 2024 21:22 |
|
|
esperterra posted:Mads Mikkelsen woulda been a kickin' rad book Euron, too. Agreed
|
|
#
?
May 9, 2019 17:44
|
|