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sunken fleet posted:There's the whole genre of Chinese/Japanese web and light novels that stands in clear defiance of this principle though. People like long meandering and largely open-ended serials that only wrap up when the author dies or gets axed by their publisher. Are you thinking of the xianxia/isekai/generic protagonist man becomes a god and effortlessly wins at everything stuff? If so, I'd actually argue that those have a really rigid and well-defined structure, it's just an excessively simple one: guy wants to get stronger, guy gets stronger, stronger enemies appear, repeat. Practically the entire genre of shounen manga is built around that, because it's an easy-to-understand, easy-to-write structure that you can basically write forever.
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May 10, 2019 07:39
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violent sex idiot posted:ward is about how you absolutely should not ever give anyone a second chance
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May 10, 2019 08:43
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Omi no Kami posted:Are you thinking of the xianxia/isekai/generic protagonist man becomes a god and effortlessly wins at everything stuff? If so, I'd actually argue that those have a really rigid and well-defined structure, it's just an excessively simple one: guy wants to get stronger, guy gets stronger, stronger enemies appear, repeat. Practically the entire genre of shounen manga is built around that, because it's an easy-to-understand, easy-to-write structure that you can basically write forever. I think those probably count too, since stretching out that little four step cycle into 20 volumes make a story's plot completely indistinguishable from not having an overarching plot at all but I was thinking more along the lines of like... Kuma Kuma Kuma. Or Death March. Or Different world with a smartphone. Or the zillion other isekai harem things in that same vein - where the protagonists start off the story having unbelievable godlike power and then just sort of... wander around looking at things. And maybe collecting girls to follow them while they wander around looking at things... There are plenty of stories like that that don't even try to pretend to have an overarching plot - instead they revel in being fantasy just for the sake of fantasy. The kinds of stories where it seems like the author's whole thought process/plot outline is just "It's a magical world. There's a guy/girl. Go."
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May 10, 2019 12:52
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sunken fleet posted:I think those probably count too, since stretching out that little four step cycle into 20 volumes make a story's plot completely indistinguishable from not having an overarching plot at all but I was thinking more along the lines of like... Kuma Kuma Kuma. Or Death March. Or Different world with a smartphone. Or the zillion other isekai harem things in that same vein - where the protagonists start off the story having unbelievable godlike power and then just sort of... wander around looking at things. And maybe collecting girls to follow them while they wander around looking at things... That's definitely true, and I'm not well-versed enough in these genres to think up an informed example, but I'm betting that even in the absurdly simple stuff has some kind of spine, even if it's as simple as "X wants to be the strongest baker in the world," or "Y wants to catch all the pokemon". What matters is that there's an understandable framework for the stories to unfold in, even if that framework is just monster-of-the-week or DBZ-style linear power creep with one fight after another. Where I would argue stuff like Ward differs is that it's not just an issue of there being little to no overarching story, what really hurts it is that there's very little connective tissue between plot beats- the arcs could be randomized and read in almost any order with minimal confusion, because there's very little content that acts to build a narrative foundation or draws on work done by prior content.
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May 10, 2019 14:38
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sunken fleet posted:There's the whole genre of Chinese/Japanese web and light novels that stands in clear defiance of this principle though. People like long meandering and largely open-ended serials that only wrap up when the author dies or gets axed by their publisher. Yeah, people also like lovely litrpg novels but that doesn't mean that those are good lmao.
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May 10, 2019 19:10
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Sampatrick posted:Yeah, people also like lovely litrpg novels but that doesn't mean that those are good lmao. I honestly like more bad things than good things. This includes literature, food, movies, music, and women. I am basically a garbage person. A human raccoon.
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May 10, 2019 21:05
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sunken fleet posted:There's the whole genre of Chinese/Japanese web and light novels that stands in clear defiance of this principle though. People like long meandering and largely open-ended serials that only wrap up when the author dies or gets axed by their publisher. People read Ward, therefore Ward must have no flaws. My mistake.
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May 10, 2019 22:42
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Sampatrick posted:Yeah, people also like lovely litrpg novels but that doesn't mean that those are good lmao. 'They're not badly-written stories, dad! They're Chinese/Japanese web and light novels!'
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May 11, 2019 02:40
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I mean, on the one hand, Worm/Ward probably aren't very good, objectively. Even as someone who really, really likes parts or aspects of both, I recognize that. On the other hand, they're the only web serials I've read where I read through the whole thing at a furious pace and was left wanting more. Every other one I've tried, I either fizzle out on almost immediately, read halfway through before realizing I'm not actually enjoying it (PracGuide), or read to last current update, say "That was nice," but never have the urge to check up on again (Iron Teeth, Unsong).  edit: To be clear I'm not at all dissing PracGuide here, what I read of it was definitely better-written then Worm et al. and I'm really glad people like it, I just didn't care for the 'fairytale metaphysics/tropes' aspect. Plus, I hate characters like Akua and my investment in the story ended up being inversely proportional to her prominence in it. Random Asshole fucked around with this message at 03:45 on May 11, 2019 |
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May 11, 2019 03:29
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^^^I mostly agree, though I feel like PracGuide is appealing in the same way as Worm/Ward, except moreso. I feel like a lot of the criticism of Ward isn't wrong, but that it's still better than pretty much every other English-language WN I've read except for PracGuide (PracGuide is, in my opinion, a pretty ideal example of what web serials of this nature should aim for) and maybe Mother of Learning (and Forge of Destiny if you want to count that). I still find it interesting on a chapter to chapter basis and don't really mind that there's no clear overarching thing, since each individual antagonist and subplot has been entertaining to me. As for comparing against other wildbow stuff, I'd say it's definitely better than Worm, but Twig is a bit harder to do a comparison with, since "on paper" I feel Twig is better, but in practice something about Twig felt repetitive/flat to me for reasons I have trouble articulating. The one gripe I actually disagree with is the "misery porn" thing; I don't think it's really excessive with this, and both Worm and Twig gave me far more of a "everything is terrible and depressing and never going to get better" feeling. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 03:32 on May 11, 2019 |
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May 11, 2019 03:30
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Random rear end in a top hat posted:I mean, on the one hand, Worm/Ward probably aren't very good, objectively. Even as someone who really, really likes parts or aspects of both, I recognize that. It's been a few months since I posted so I thought I'd do so again. I write a web serial here on this dead, gay comedy forum. Maybe you might like mine. https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3835049 Ytlaya posted:^^^I mostly agree, though I feel like PracGuide is appealing in the same way as Worm/Ward, except moreso.  So I actually do have an overarching metaplot, but you don't need to understand the intricacies if you want to have a good time. It does give you a fairly different perspective on a number of scenes if you read it a second time. There is actual direction and story. I go out of my way not to waste my reader's time and keep what's on the page relevant to the story. I don't do misery porn. And for cyberpunk I think that stands out. There are small victories, losses, big victories, losses, but things can and do change. Don't get me wrong, poo poo in a cyberpunk story is miserable, but I like to give a feeling that you can actually do something about it. Doom and gloom is depressing. I don't like writing doom and gloom. I write about empowerment. All the while I do my best to write interesting and likable characters with complex motivations who interact with one another and the world around them in a realistic fashion, all while growing and changing as people. I used to write for a living and characterization was one of my strengths. I like to think of my story as YA cyberpunk. And if you know YA, you're dealing with a lot of adult problems like violence and corruption, but I try to address them in real ways rather than kicking explanations down the road or making them simplistic or even nonsensical which is pretty common in YA. Also the average age of someone reading YA is in their thirties, so that's my actual target demographic while writing about teens. I'm probably nearing a million words over five books and a novelette. I'm working on the sixth book now and update usually at least once a week, often several times a week. So you won't be starved for content. And since it's written in a choose your own adventure style, the people in the thread are actual contributors and get to vote on what I do. So they not only improve my story, but keep me from screwing up or being boring. It's basically instant feedback from beta readers who are guiding the story. Also since it's based on the tabletop game Shadowrun, I roll dice to see what happens. The characters have sheets, so it keeps Mary Sue and Gary Stu characters from appearing. Everyone has strengths and weaknesses and it means that failure is a real option, but it also means that the story ends up feeling wild and strange at times. Sometimes weird and unexpected poo poo happens when I roll dice. Not wacky, but surprising. Shadowrun: Blake Island School of Magic - Make friends, learn magic, punch Nazis. Maybe you'll enjoy it. Please let me know if you do.  https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3835049 Ice Phisherman fucked around with this message at 05:27 on May 11, 2019 |
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May 11, 2019 05:23
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Ice Phisherman posted:It's been a few months since I posted so I thought I'd do so again. I write a web serial here on this dead, gay comedy forum. Maybe you might like mine. This is pretty great, I've read through most of the edited version (https://blakeisland.wordpress.com/). I'm not a huge fan of reading through a CYOA formatted forum thread.
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May 11, 2019 05:30
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^^^ Oh nice, I guess that answers my question. Thanks for the link! I feel like I've seen your story/thread mentioned before but never got around to reading it. I feel like the CYOA adventure has a lot of potential if it's done well (like in Forge of Destiny, in my opinion), but it relies on the author having a very strong sense of the characters and setting. Is the best way to read it just to filter the thread by your posts?
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May 11, 2019 05:31
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Ytlaya posted:Thanks for the link! I feel like I've seen your story/thread mentioned before but never got around to reading it. I feel like the CYOA adventure has a lot of potential if it's done well (like in Forge of Destiny, in my opinion), but it relies on the author having a very strong sense of the characters and setting. Both of those are true in this case.
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May 11, 2019 05:34
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Tom Clancy is Dead posted:This is pretty great, I've read through most of the edited version (https://blakeisland.wordpress.com/). I'm not a huge fan of reading through a CYOA formatted forum thread. I really need to keep editing that version, but editing sucks out my urge to create new content. I will say that the edited content isn't much different from the original. It's mostly cleaned up in terms of grammar and spelling. Ytlaya posted:^^^ Oh nice, I guess that answers my question. You're very welcome.  quote:I feel like I've seen your story/thread mentioned before but never got around to reading it. I feel like the CYOA adventure has a lot of potential if it's done well (like in Forge of Destiny, in my opinion), but it relies on the author having a very strong sense of the characters and setting. I believe it does too and not just because I'm doing it. Part of being an author is that normally you decide what happens by fiat. It means that authors can fall into predictable patterns. So if you read enough stories over time, you'll be able to predict the outcomes. I read a lot and I'm always happy when something happens that I can't predict because a lot of fiction is predicable. I'm countering predictability by asking the thread for help during the CYOA part and rolling dice. This creates two forces of randomness into my stories. And what's really cool is that the thread will often choose not what's optimal when telling me what to do, but what makes sense for the characters to do and what makes the story most satisfying to read. So sometimes the choices are sub-optimal, but almost always interesting. Shadowrun the tabeltop game is pretty complicated and simulationist, and it's the simulation that I'm interested in. A lot of tabletop games coming out today are rules light and are easy to understand. Not Shadowrun. It is on the higher end of difficulty, especially if you play certain types of characters. While this can be daunting for first time players, I know the rules well enough (eventually, it took time) that I build the physical, mental and emotional attributes, the skills, the contacts/relationships, the positive and negative qualities, even what they own, and I boil them down into a character. And not everything on the character is on the sheet, but it serves as a good template. The sheets are also excellent for establishing general limits for what's possible with these characters. Social rolls are a big part of the game. For example the character that is currently the main character (there's a rotating cast of three main characters over the books) is pretty bad at social rolls and it's going to continually bite her whereas the previous character was great at talking to people and tended to succeed pretty often in social conflict. So one of the themes of this next story is going to be be the current main character just getting owned over and over again whenever she opens her mouth until we decide to spend experience points to make her passable at talking to people. quote:Is the best way to read it just to filter the thread by your posts? Sadly yes, however, I usually have at least one post per forty posts so there's almost always at least one post per page. Often several. Occasionally I'll stop for a bit and you might have two or three pages go by without a post from me, but those are pretty rare. Also if you're interested in the nuts and bolts of writing, I talk a lot about my process outside of those posts. I'm not some New York Times best seller but I have strung words together for money before and made decent money doing it. So you get to see my storyboarding notes (usually filled with dice rolls and explanations about what I'm doing and why) along with explanations and feedback from questions for the thread who are seriously cool people who make my story better. Their questions help me focus and me explaining what I'm doing and why ends up as something of a constant low key writing exercise. I actually storyboard a ton for my story and I can safely say for every one word that is posted, there's one word of storyboarding that doesn't make it into the story explaining what's actually happening. So there is value outside of the story itself if you're interested in writing and the community surrounding my work is super cool too as they are active participants in my writing process. You don't have to passively consume the story if you don't want to, though that's totally fine if you do. If you get to the end of the story, it can be a depressing moment for web serials, but that means that you can start participating and guiding the story. Even if your idea fails to get the votes, I often engage in the "yes, and" style of collaborative storytelling. If I feel like an idea is good, I'll often put it in anyway. Not against the will of the thread, but I'll blend it together to make what I hope will be better than simple majority rules CYOA style play. Also, and because I've read a ton of web serial fiction so I like to put this out there. I'm not a creep. I don't put down women. I don't have really vile poo poo like sexual assault on screen, and I don't really want it to happen at all. Trauma is additive, not defining of characters, and it can be overcome or at least a health equilibrium can be achieved by learning to live and deal with trauma in a healthy way.. Few people are "saved", they save themselves, but often get help in the process. Also as I'm a former romance writer, I do write romance subplots, but between equals. And I feel like I'm not as interested in the chase part of romance, but what happens afterwards. People are not trophies to be obtained, but actual living people with thoughts and feelings and agency. Tons of media goes on and on about the chase in romance, but doesn't really show what a healthy relationship looks like. And I write about what a healthy, functional relationship should look like because Western media is just full of dysfunction and the chase and not really modeling what a healthy relationship looks like. Especially with young people. I feel like it's fallen so out of fashion that displaying what emotional intimacy between partners is artistically transgressive. That said, they're subplots. They're not the focus. So if that's not your thing it's not going to take up a ton of your time. You'll also find a measure of drama, horror, humor, mystery, near future sci-fi and the cyberpunk genre with its talk of politics and rebellion and corporate dystopia and corruption. And I do my research and take my time so I break down naunced topics like say, fascism and terrorism and shamanism and education theory and history all of that stuff into something that most people can understand. Also as someone who read a lot of Redwall growing up I will go on about food now and again. So recently I talked about barbecue and how involved it is without doing so much that it would become cumbersome and boring to the story. And in the previous story I had a chapter about Indian food. And before that, Cantonese dim sum. And I do a lot of research on topics to create authenticity, so everything should hopefully feel right. So yeah, lots of stuff in my story. It's my baby. Ice Phisherman fucked around with this message at 06:29 on May 11, 2019 |
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May 11, 2019 06:01
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TWI Patreon: For all that the world building sucked in the previous chapter, the world building in this one was  Orjin the Strongest is Extremely Royal.
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May 12, 2019 03:09
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A big flaming stink posted:TWI Patreon: For all that the world building sucked in the previous chapter, the world building in this one was I love meeting new heavy hitters, the probable level 50+ types. I hope we see more of him.
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May 12, 2019 03:55
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MoL: Man, the structure of the post-loop wrapup continues to be super-weird. Like, it feels like Z&Z were allowed to get far too powerful in maybe the last 25% of the story that took place in the loop- they have so many ways of potentially ending the threat right away (most of which rhyme with "call the army"), and I really wish that they had a more natural reason to not invoke the zillions of cool but boring and unsatisfying options that we saw them use successfully in the loop. Also, nobody has mentioned it for like 90 chapters, but remember how the invasion was originally going to be backstopped by mass demon summonings, and one of the reasons their order of battle tended to collapse was because they were cut off from the infernal plane? I really hope nobody on the jerkass angels' side has forgotten about that.
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May 13, 2019 03:36
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Omi no Kami posted:MoL: Man, the structure of the post-loop wrapup continues to be super-weird. Like, it feels like Z&Z were allowed to get far too powerful in maybe the last 25% of the story that took place in the loop- they have so many ways of potentially ending the threat right away (most of which rhyme with "call the army"), and I really wish that they had a more natural reason to not invoke the zillions of cool but boring and unsatisfying options that we saw them use successfully in the loop. Yeah, I feel like it's getting rushed a bit because the author is trying to keep some form of a schedule, but I hope before it gets thrown onto Kindle that this part gets some decent amount of rewrite attention.
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May 13, 2019 19:38
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Ice Phisherman posted:It's been a few months since I posted so I thought I'd do so again. I write a web serial here on this dead, gay comedy forum. Maybe you might like mine. Blake Island School of Magic is really good. Ice Phisherman does a good job of bringing the characters and their evolving relationships to life. Their previous writing experience shines through. There were some scenes that moved me as much as any AAA movie or best seller. The story has been going for years now. LLSix fucked around with this message at 21:28 on May 13, 2019 |
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May 13, 2019 21:23
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Does the edited stuff get updated frequently? Reading stories on SA literally drives me insane with rage.
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May 14, 2019 15:46
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Sampatrick posted:Does the edited stuff get updated frequently? Reading stories on SA literally drives me insane with rage. Yes and no. Not frequently for the last few months, but I've been starting up editing again as I want to promote it past SA. I'm currently working on editing the last of book two. I'm also considering dumping the unedited stuff on the website and just putting up a kind of sign that says something to the effect of "Here be Dragons". Edit: LLSix posted:Blake Island School of Magic is really good. Ice Phisherman does a good job of bringing the characters and their evolving relationships to life. Their previous writing experience shines through. There were some scenes that moved me as much as any AAA movie or best seller. Wow, thank you. Ice Phisherman fucked around with this message at 01:26 on May 15, 2019 |
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May 14, 2019 18:15
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I mean that's basically what web serial authors already do. Anyway re: MoL, is it me or is this newest chapter like, 1/4th the size of the normal one?
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May 14, 2019 21:13
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I've been catching up on the latest PracGuide chapters, and I like this situation where Cat is hanging out with these heroes. I feel like there's actually hope for Grey Pilgrim coming to some kind of understanding, since he was clearly kinda troubled by the points Amadeus made and wasn't just dismissing them out of hand. It's good that Cat realizes that her anger/irritation at the advantage heroes have is largely due to her own biased upbringing, since it is a pretty distorted perception. While it's true that heroes inevitably bring down a villain in the end (except, uh, when they don't, or when they take a lifetime to do so, which is basically the same thing), any individual in a heroic band is totally capable of dying, and villains often have bigger guns in exchange for burdening themselves with narrative disadvantages (like Black mentioned at one point, the previous Black Knight leaned into his role and became capable of toppling towers with a gesture as a result, but that also made him vulnerable to being beaten by heroes). edit: Also caught up with Ward. Looks like Sveta got herself a body. Seems like a kind of convenient resolution to her plotline and it's a bit strange that the whole biotinker angle hadn't already been explored (honestly it's not clear to me why Bonesaw couldn't figure something out). The criminal guy who did the procedure's power confused me, though; he's a tinker, but also can produce needles or something? I'm not sure if we've seen any other tinkers with other powers. Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 00:07 on May 16, 2019 |
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May 15, 2019 06:37
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I’m starting to get rather bored of the Saint’s whole shtick.
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May 17, 2019 06:10
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At a guess you won't have to put up with it too much longer.
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May 17, 2019 07:26
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Larry Parrish posted:I mean that's basically what web serial authors already do. You're right. I've been sitting on them for too long. I just spent the last day getting my website up to snuff and now all four books are there. I'll begin publishing book five on Mondays and Thursdays until I finish book six to keep a backlog, at which point I'll dump all of book five and use book six as the backlog. After reading Wildbow's comments about backlogs, he's made a big point on multiple occasions about having backlogs and staying constant on their releases in order to help promote a following. https://blakeisland.wordpress.com/ Anyway, I spent a bunch of hours getting the website ready. For those of you who don't want to read everything over the forums, most of the story is there for you to enjoy.
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May 17, 2019 09:12
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New Worth the Candle out.
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May 18, 2019 17:40
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It's probably not the story WtC guy wants to tell, but given how the latest update has a whole chapter semi-dedicated to Juniper's thoughts about how the DM is going to use his mechanics abuse to screw him, it's a bit weird to me that nobody has ever suggested or tried playing the game as it's intended. Like, everyone seems to take for granted that the DM expects them to behave like munchkins and min/max, twist, and break the game as hard as possible, but isn't it just as possible that if they actually go out of their way to play their roles and tell a fun story, the DM would have significantly fewer reasons to actively screw with them?
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May 18, 2019 18:33
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For everyone except Juniper, though, life isn't a game, and normal games still have huge body counts even if the protagonists have plot armor, mostly. By trying to powerlevel Juniper as much as possible, they're pretty much trying to skip past as much of the game as possible to avoid giving the GM even more chances to cause hundreds or thousands or millions of people to die. Also, pen and paper games are much easier to 'fail' compared to a real video game - the plot armor a DM gives any individual character is relatively thin, especially an rear end in a top hat DM like this - they need to use his cheatiness as much as possible to avoid another one of the party dying.
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May 18, 2019 20:09
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also iirc the dungeon master explicitly tells him to stop trying to meta-game his intentions and just do what he thinks is right. what juniper thinks about the exclusionary principle being the DM nerfing things is completely conjecture. it could also be just another wacky law of physics in Aerb, or it is controlled by an intelligence but it's not the DM, etc
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May 18, 2019 20:36
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Plus there's the whole thing where something that might take weeks or months or years 'normally' can be quickly and instantly solved, and if he willingly goes to sleep, giving up his temporary near-godhood, the plot has to stop escalating after that, even if he got a few essential things done.
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May 18, 2019 21:15
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TWI patreon: The adventures of Selys becoming bourgeios scum and using this position to bring about the transformation of society into a capitalist mode of production  Her entire fortune is funded literally by rent-seeking behavior!seriously this sort of chapter is pretty fun to read but Krschia sounding almost Adam Smithian in talking about rent control was kind of a what the gently caress
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May 18, 2019 23:02
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Omi no Kami posted:It's probably not the story WtC guy wants to tell, but given how the latest update has a whole chapter semi-dedicated to Juniper's thoughts about how the DM is going to use his mechanics abuse to screw him, it's a bit weird to me that nobody has ever suggested or tried playing the game as it's intended. Like, everyone seems to take for granted that the DM expects them to behave like munchkins and min/max, twist, and break the game as hard as possible, but isn't it just as possible that if they actually go out of their way to play their roles and tell a fun story, the DM would have significantly fewer reasons to actively screw with them? It's written by a /r/rational guy, there's literally no way that it could end up not having some degree of ~optimization~ in it
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May 19, 2019 01:44
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A big flaming stink posted:TWI patreon:seriously this sort of chapter is pretty fun to read but Krschia sounding almost Adam Smithian in talking about rent control was kind of a what the gently caress I suspect that was just her playing to the Selys's increased cost of rent to rope her in.
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May 19, 2019 02:47
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Yo please spoiler discussion of patreon chapters
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May 19, 2019 04:51
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it's not any sort of substantive discussion of what actually happens.
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May 19, 2019 05:33
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Wolpertinger posted:For everyone except Juniper, though, life isn't a game, and normal games still have huge body counts even if the protagonists have plot armor, mostly. By trying to powerlevel Juniper as much as possible, they're pretty much trying to skip past as much of the game as possible to avoid giving the GM even more chances to cause hundreds or thousands or millions of people to die. Also, pen and paper games are much easier to 'fail' compared to a real video game - the plot armor a DM gives any individual character is relatively thin, especially an rear end in a top hat DM like this - they need to use his cheatiness as much as possible to avoid another one of the party dying. Hmm, looking at the potential for collateral damage is interesting, I definitely hadn't thought about that. I think the real issue is that everybody inside the game world seems to be acting as if there's an adversarial relationship with the DM, and I don't think that's ever been established. Some of the plot twists in the back half definitely reek of bad DMing, particularly the way that Fenn was killed, but at least up until the big dumb bottle deer pregnancy adventure the game felt like a fairly reasonable fantasy thing- get plot hook, follow up on it, have big, violent adventure, get loot. It wasn't until the party started doing weird nonsense and trying to game the system that the game started scaling up super-fast. Although to be fair, all of those D&D flashbacks showed that Juniper himself enjoyed having a somewhat competitive relationship with his players, so I guess it makes sense that his own personal D&D purgatory would be structured in the same way.
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May 19, 2019 14:59
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Yeah they assume that the DM is hostile not by his actions but because Aerb is based almost entirely on Juniper's work and Juniper loved to be a hostile DM. Especially since a lot of the stuff in Aerb is from when he was spiraling into depression, specifically
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May 19, 2019 20:06
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TWI Patreon: 
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May 21, 2019 19:49
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