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So the reason for the buggy games is that Bethesda just employs lots of old people who love their jobs? Now I feel conflicted, because that is a very nice thing and also not a nice thing at the same time. I certainly want those people to stay employed, of course, but I also think Bethesda needs to really step up on their quality control, which means they’d have to change how they do things. Good for those employees though, I’m happy for em.
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May 10, 2019 19:31
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Meanwhile at bethesda https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNvc9-HBFoU
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May 10, 2019 19:43
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Honestly, do they need to actually step up their quality in terms of actual stability/bugs/etc? Like, I know F76 is the big example staring me in the face but that's because it's a weird multiplayer skinner box and not an actual game. Prior to that, their games being buggy has never slowed the critical response or profitability of any of their releases. No one really cares that Skyrim is still basically running on the Morrowind engine and that if you pick up a fork every other object on the table suddenly shifts a few inches and the bread rockets across the room, and if they do then they gave up a long time ago and the rest of the noise is just variations of boycottcallofduty.jpg. It's more that they're getting lazier at the actual game design part, where there's less and less quests each game that aren't just 'kill X enemy in Y dungeon' and the RPG part is shrinking. It could just be a kind of cynical attempt at trying to pander to a more mainstream audience but on the flipside they've shown a willingness to course correct a little bit in the past few years (both F4 and Skyrim had DLC that was significantly better than the main game) so theres a possibility that the overwhelming negative response of F76 will lead them to do better. Or it could lead to them endless pip-boy reskins at $2.99 a pop to pigs that will eat whatever slop they see in front of them. It's probably the second one but the first one could still happen 
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May 10, 2019 20:07
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Wolfsheim posted:on the flipside they've shown a willingness to course correct a little bit in the past few years (v F4 and Skyrim had DLC that was significantly better than the main game) Why is this a good thing? Not being snarky genuinely curious as to why this is a positive compared to the original game just being good. Sorry i know i sound sarcastic and im not trying to be but if we apply that to f76 would it suddenly be ok if a really good DLC dropped? You still are getting poo poo and then paying more to make it oookay? ZeusCannon fucked around with this message at 20:11 on May 10, 2019 |
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May 10, 2019 20:09
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ZeusCannon posted:Why is this a good thing? Not being snarky genuinely curious as to why this is a positive. Why would the opposite be good 
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May 10, 2019 20:10
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Wolfsheim posted:Honestly, do they need to actually step up their quality in terms of actual stability/bugs/etc? This is a really eloquent way of saying all the poo poo I just had in my head. There's nothing really wrong with Bethesda's janky rear end engine or buggy rear end games. Fallout 4 is the first game they made where I really didn't super duper love, and I'll never buy F76 because gently caress that. But as janky as their engine is, it's the very reason folks can add mods the way they do which hugely increases their games longevity. Folk are still modding Morrowind. I'm sure they could switch to a newer, more moddable engine, but would it increase their sales enough to justify both the cost as well as the time spent learning the new tools, as opposed to just slapping some new shaders and higher res texures on what is basically still NetImmerse? Probably not.
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May 10, 2019 20:20
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"I'm happy for those employees that dont do a very good job but love what they do." *Car made by company with these same criteria bursts into flames* Well, the employees at Bethesda Motor Company were there for years, they're one big family. I'm happy Bethesdas work environment is one of the few nontoxic game companies out there but holy moly someone has to fire grandpa and get some fresh blood in there
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May 10, 2019 20:21
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chaosapiant posted:This is a really eloquent way of saying all the poo poo I just had in my head. There's nothing really wrong with Bethesda's janky rear end engine or buggy rear end games. Fallout 4 is the first game they made where I really didn't super duper love, and I'll never buy F76 because gently caress that. But as janky as their engine is, it's the very reason folks can add mods the way they do which hugely increases their games longevity. Folk are still modding Morrowind. I'm sure they could switch to a newer, more moddable engine, but would it increase their sales enough to justify both the cost as well as the time spent learning the new tools, as opposed to just slapping some new shaders and higher res texures on what is basically still NetImmerse? Probably not. After F76 it might. I know im basically skippin elder scrolls / fallout games for the foreseeable future. These games lack passion any more. And while modders can and do supply some i dont see a reason to keep shoveling money at a middleman who doesnt care much
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May 10, 2019 20:23
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The fatal mistake was making a game that modders couldn't fix for them
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May 10, 2019 20:26
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ZeusCannon posted:After F76 it might. I know im basically skippin elder scrolls / fallout games for the foreseeable future. These games lack passion any more. And while modders can and do supply some i dont see a reason to keep shoveling money at a middleman who doesnt care much Modders can no longer inject creativity anymore due to voice acting. Morrowind has 59493939 quest mods and most of a province done, oblivion and skyrim will never have that. Hell, modders basically game up on fallout 4 pretty immediately. Maxwell's world was one of the few exceptions.
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May 10, 2019 20:26
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lmao implementing silicon valley ageism will fix bethesda 
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May 10, 2019 20:34
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ZeusCannon posted:Why is this a good thing? Not being snarky genuinely curious as to why this is a positive compared to the original game just being good. Hey, you wrote more! That's a bad example because whether or not you liked them F4 and Skyrim were huge, complete games and the DLC that improved upon them (Far Harbor and the Solstheim one) were just good expansions that just refined the gameplay of the base game, but like if you hated the core experience of Skyrim it wouldn't change that or anything. F76 is an unfinished beta test to see if Bethesda could get in on this MP lootbox grift other devs have going on. Its still extremely damning and has basically destroyed any goodwill the public may have had towards them (and then they followed it up with that POS Blades mobile game, jfc) but it doesnt retroactively make Morrowind/etc bad when 'buggy but vast open world RPG' has always been the draw.
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May 10, 2019 20:35
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ZeusCannon posted:After F76 it might. I know im basically skippin elder scrolls / fallout games for the foreseeable future. These games lack passion any more. And while modders can and do supply some i dont see a reason to keep shoveling money at a middleman who doesnt care much So far (and I hope it stays this way) F76 is a game that shows all of their weaknesses and none of their strengths. It's not the game I'd use as an example. It's half baked at best and at worst is a cynical and lazy cash grab shits all over both the Fallout IPs and the company as a whole. It's definitely not a direction I hope they continue in.
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May 10, 2019 20:39
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Wolfsheim posted:Hey, you wrote more! That's a bad example because whether or not you liked them F4 and Skyrim were huge, complete games and the DLC that improved upon them (Far Harbor and the Solstheim one) were just good expansions that just refined the gameplay of the base game, but like if you hated the core experience of Skyrim it wouldn't change that or anything. Yeah agree with the f4 and skyrim as examples i just used them since they were your examples of dlc being used to change the flavor of the game away from the more mainstream shoot everything quests. And again not arguing just didnt understand that you were saying that f76 may lead to a course correction back towards a more narrative , varied etc game.( I think thats what your saying. Ill be honest i got a hosed up cold messing with me today so im just trying to figure that post out not take shots at people) Edit: also why i keep editing im typing waaay slower abd less coherent than i think i am.
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May 10, 2019 20:40
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Donovan Trip posted:Bethesda is one of the rare games companies with a large number of decade+ employees, they definitely are treated well and have a good company culture. One of the reasons they stick with their engine is they tend to keep people who aren't necessarily gamers and may generally be light on tech skills, but they like the person. I distinctly remember in the Oblivion deluxe edition making of documentary, they showed a room of their level designers and it was majority senior folks who seemed like they were having a really good time at work bumping around elements in what looked as accessable as user-level mod tools. Huh, I'd never heard this before but it's good to hear.
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May 10, 2019 22:53
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BMan posted:The fatal mistake was making a game that modders couldn't fix for them No, they tried to have mods for it. There were big tit mods in like the first few weeks. But Betehsda, scared it wouldn't get money from its cheap rear end in-game store, cracked down on mods. THEY KILLED THE THING THAT TYPICALLY SAVES THEIR PIECES OF poo poo FOR THEM, EVEN AS IT STILL TRIED TO DO SO. Grandpa Howard finally smacked the kids on his lawn doing his taxes, chores and grocery shopping for him for free and look what happened when that unpaid labor is destroyed.
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May 10, 2019 23:22
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Crabtree posted:Grandpa Howard finally smacked the kids on his lawn doing his taxes, chores and grocery shopping for him for free lol'ing cause it's true
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May 10, 2019 23:23
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Bethesda is still salty that paid mods for skyrim on steam never took off.
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May 10, 2019 23:39
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89sOyZdtVA0 Spend some time watching the places the west coast fallout games are based on.
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May 11, 2019 00:10
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Crabtree posted:No, they tried to have mods for it. There were big tit mods in like the first few weeks. But Betehsda, scared it wouldn't get money from its cheap rear end in-game store, cracked down on mods. THEY KILLED THE THING THAT TYPICALLY SAVES THEIR PIECES OF poo poo FOR THEM, EVEN AS IT STILL TRIED TO DO SO. Grandpa Howard finally smacked the kids on his lawn doing his taxes, chores and grocery shopping for him for free and look what happened when that unpaid labor is destroyed. No, there are tons of mods for 76. https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout76 What they cracked down on are mods that require code injectors to work because it's a multiplayer game.
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May 11, 2019 00:40
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Oh jesus christ, there are still people modding for 76?
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May 11, 2019 00:45
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In the various NoClip Bethesda documentaries, it shows a bit about how BGS and to some extend, Zenimax are full of people that have either spent their entire career or huge chunks of it there. Employees seem to genuinely enjoy working there... I mean they obviously aren't going to show 2am crunch on screen or whatever, but people don't hang around for a decade at a company if they are treated like garbage. I'll jokingly make the argument that siphoning money from gamers and creating a healthy working environment in the video game industry is enough.
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May 11, 2019 00:45
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Wasn't 76 done by an outside studio that Bethesda purchased?
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May 11, 2019 00:55
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StandardVC10 posted:Wasn't 76 done by an outside studio that Bethesda purchased? Based on the doc, development was spread throughout the studios and different teams. They brought in a team of industry vets (BGS Austin aka Battle Cry Studios) to completely re-architect the engine for the network, multiplayer side of things. But they continuing reference about how it's a huge mindset change for the existing staff doing content creation; design/quests/art and presumably the rest of the "meat" of the game. They also directly interview designers and leads from BGS Maryland/HQ. I think the summary is: BGS Austin (Battle Cry Studios) - "primary" dev/network architecture BGS Montreal and BGS Marland (Old guard and mobile devs) - design and content until release Back to BGS Austin for ongoing maintenance/post release support while the others work on the big boy projects and more mobile games. The NoClip docs are pretty interesting in my opinion, better then game itself.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi8PTAJ2Hjs
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May 11, 2019 02:52
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Clark Nova posted:lmao implementing silicon valley ageism will fix bethesda Todd will start chipping their employees with crystals. The crystals lose colour over time. When the crystals turn clear the employee then has to commit honourable sepukku or choose to renew. The renew option is a lifetime working on the Fallout 76 team.
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May 11, 2019 07:20
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Wolfsheim posted:F4 complete game I strongly disagree on this point. The game was physically large, but they didn't do anything with most of it. Aside from a couple of set pieces the game was nothing but procedurally generated content. They leaned so heavily onto radiant quests and those have been implemented from their very first elder scroll game and they haven't done anything with it. Bethesda at this point is basically the Madden NFL of RPGs. You get the exact game every time with slightly better graphics and new rosters.
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May 11, 2019 07:58
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I don't remember hearing the Madden engines being worse every game, but then again, I never played them.
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May 11, 2019 08:00
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rodbeard posted:Bethesda at this point is basically the Madden NFL of RPGs. You get the exact game every time with slightly better graphics and new rosters. I've been reading post after post about 76. I just started playing a week ago and I'm honestly having fun. I was going to say "but I like exploring and finding the little stories and completing the side quests. They are new and interesting." I pretty much caved on that once I saw the madden metaphor. Similar stories, new voices, new locations. I'll still play, but now I'll wonder what story from what game are they repeating.
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May 11, 2019 09:55
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ZombieCrew posted:I've been reading post after post about 76. I just started playing a week ago and I'm honestly having fun. I was going to say "but I like exploring and finding the little stories and completing the side quests. They are new and interesting." I pretty much caved on that once I saw the madden metaphor. Similar stories, new voices, new locations. I'll still play, but now I'll wonder what story from what game are they repeating. I mean the formula definitely works once, but when I bought the fallout 4 season pass based on how much I liked fallout 3 and new vegas I was expecting something new. I tried out the original elder scrolls out of curiosity because it's free and it's amazing how similar their first game is to their most recent one.
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May 11, 2019 10:12
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To be fair these games aren't so much about the gameplay, but more about the lore and stories you experience within them; your personal journey as a character through the world with the decisions you made and the lives you affected. That doesn't happen in Fallout 76 because you're not changing the world at all because everyone is loving dead so all the "story" comes down to is god drat robots without personal conflicts or wants to factor in when you're choosing how to mold the world. Oh, and Holotapes that lead you to a corpse, there's that too. It's like being in a sandbox but other kids have already build their castles everywhere and you can only look at them and not build your own.
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May 11, 2019 10:25
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rodbeard posted:I tried out the original elder scrolls out of curiosity because it's free and it's amazing how similar their first game is to their most recent one. Arena to Skyrim? I mean they both have radiant quests but...eh
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May 11, 2019 14:11
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Meyers-Briggs Testicle posted:Modders can no longer inject creativity anymore due to voice acting. Morrowind has 59493939 quest mods and most of a province done, oblivion and skyrim will never have that. There's actually tons of huge, fully-voiced Skyrim mods including an entire new game, Enderal
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May 11, 2019 17:09
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corn in the bible posted:There's actually tons of huge, fully-voiced Skyrim mods including an entire new game, Enderal I imagine the voiced protagonist is what it makes it worse. Unless modders hired the original voice actor--which seems exceptionally unlikely-- it'd be kind of jarring to have a completely different voice actor for a story based mod. And as far as total conversions like Endereal-where that'd be a lot of commitment for an unpaid role. It's certainly possible, and the modding community has done a ton for the games without remuneration, but it does add an extra hurdle. I loved pretty much every Bethesda game until Fallout 4. Bethesda game story-telling is different from what you get with Obsidian, Bioware, or CDProjekt, but I still got a lot of satisfaction from making my own character and exploring the world. Now, Bethesda games weren't perfect--Fallout: New Vegas is the best synthesis of strong plotting combined with an open world and ability for the player to define the character that I've seen. But Fallout 4 leaned into Bethesda's biggest weaknesses, by putting a conventional video game narrative front and center. I like stories in video games. But Fallout 4's was just exceptionally poor. I have a little bit of a hard time believing that Bethesda's decisions are driven purely by their love of the franchises and game-making. Fallout 4 seemed to ape Mass Effect games, and was developed at a time when that was the biggest player in the industry. Fallout 76 seems like something that no one invested in the series really wanted, but that aped other megahits. I remember being excited when there were rumors abuzz of a new Fallout product, then having my excitement somewhat dampened when I learned Obsidian wasn't involved, and then completely shattered when Bethesda announced what Fallout 76 actually was.
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May 11, 2019 17:31
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corn in the bible posted:There's actually tons of huge, fully-voiced Skyrim mods including an entire new game, Enderal We have different ideas of 'tons' lol Enderal is a different beast entirely. Falskaar was god awful and wyrmstooth was boring. Yes some exist but you cant deny the barrier of entry is now way beyond what normal people can do. The BIGGEST downside is you cant edit / add to existing npc lines unless your voice acting is 1:1
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May 11, 2019 17:56
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Are there any mods that remove the player voice acting from Fallout 4 while simultaneously adding depth to what the protagonist is saying? The NPC responses could still be the same, but it’d give the illusion at least of having a touch more reactivity and depth.
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May 11, 2019 18:08
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Wolfsheim posted:Honestly, do they need to actually step up their quality in terms of actual stability/bugs/etc? i played fallout 4 on the PS4, GOTY complete edition. fire support popped up and I ignored it to go do some other stuff. i came back to do it and paladin danse was stuck in an infinite loop of telling me that we were under attack still. i installed a mod to fix it. i get to the rocket labs with him then he wanders off back to the police station. i had to make a new character. this was in the game's final completed edition and was a quest for one of the biggest players as far as companions go i'm fine with janky physics and NPCs doing some weird/funny stuff, but bethesda relying on modders to fix their poo poo to make the game playable on the most basic level is atrocious. bethsda keeps getting a pass for it, but if Daggerfall is just as buggy I don't see the critics being too kind since FO76 has evaporated a lot of the company's good will Blast of Confetti fucked around with this message at 19:41 on May 11, 2019 |
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May 11, 2019 19:39
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I think we are seeing a company trying to "modernize" to stay relevant but just failing spectacularly. Their attempts to implement more conventional/popular features feels like a grandmother trying to learn how to use an iPhone. I think it all comes down to mismanagement. I cringe just thinking about what a train wreck Starfield is going to be.
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May 12, 2019 00:17
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SwitchbladeKult posted:I cringe just thinking about what a train wreck Starfield is going to be. I have high hopes for Starfield. I have no idea what its gonna be, but I love scifi themed games and I also play No Man's Sky occasionally. Between Bethesda and Hello Games I'm firmly entrenched in a glitchy hoarders heaven(hell).
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May 12, 2019 06:39
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SwitchbladeKult posted:I think we are seeing a company trying to "modernize" to stay relevant but just failing spectacularly. Their attempts to implement more conventional/popular features feels like a grandmother trying to learn how to use an iPhone. I think it all comes down to mismanagement. I cringe just thinking about what a train wreck Starfield is going to be. That’s what I’m seeing. A lot of the missteps I’ve seen Bethesda make with these past few games struck me as coming from a place where they are either trying to respond to common criticisms for their games, or chasing a popular trend. Sometimes both, but very rarely do I see an improvement. The factions in Fallout 4 feels like it was their attempt at doing what Obsidian did with the four factions in New Vegas, what with the main character’s meteoric rise and “You get to pick who rules
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May 12, 2019 13:10
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SwitchbladeKult posted:I think we are seeing a company trying to "modernize" to stay relevant but just failing spectacularly. Their attempts to implement more conventional/popular features feels like a grandmother trying to learn how to use an iPhone. I think it all comes down to mismanagement. I cringe just thinking about what a train wreck Starfield is going to be. You are *to be implemented as story DLC later....probably...
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