|
Kawasaki Nun posted:Yeah someone talking about how starvation trumps politics is very unsympathetic and totally counter-revolutionary. Someone thinking that a right-wing coup is going to help end starvation in Venezuela (particularly given how right-wing coups in Latin America have actually played out) is certainly naive. GreyjoyBastard posted:i don't really read that as pro-invasion as such, especially given the temporal context of I mean, hell, if you want a more recent example than that one, they're not hard to find: drilldo squirt posted:I'm pretty sure literally anything would be better than Maduro still. Name one thing that a right wing government would do that Marudo hasn't. You can argue that's not explicitly pro-intervention, but if "literally anything would be better than Maduro still," it's at least pretty strongly implicit. Majorian fucked around with this message at 22:24 on May 12, 2019 |
#
?
May 12, 2019 22:21
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 22, 2024 03:48 |
|
|
Condiv posted:nah we've had studies showing the deleterious effect the sanctions had Yeah the conclusions of that paper have been challenged and discussed in this very thread. Thanks for clumsily reintroducing it though, you certainly have demonstrated that you are knowledgeable on this topic.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2019 22:22
|
|
|
Majorian posted:Someone thinking that a right-wing coup is going to help end starvation in Venezuela (particularly given how right-wing coups in Latin America have actually played out) is certainly naive. Scared people don't think straight? Wow what an indightment of their character
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2019 22:22
|
|
|
Kawasaki Nun posted:Yeah the conclusions of that paper have been challenged and discussed in this very thread. Thanks for clumsily reintroducing it though, you certainly have demonstrated that you are knowledgeable on this topic. by whom? the former minister of planning of the corrupt, pre-chavez venezuelan government?
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2019 22:24
|
|
|
Kawasaki Nun posted:Scared people don't think straight? Wow what an indightment of their character I haven't attacked anyone's character; you're projecting. I've questioned their reasoning.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2019 22:24
|
|
|
Kawasaki Nun posted:Yeah the conclusions of that paper have been challenged and discussed in this very thread. Thanks for clumsily reintroducing it though, you certainly have demonstrated that you are knowledgeable on this topic. Honestly part of why that report makes me kinda mad is that I'm disappointed, CEPR knows better than to make the dumb sloppy arguments and statements they did. One of which is repeated in that tweet! By their official twitter account! Don't do that CEPR!  edit on the plus side that reminded me it exists so I can look at the citations and poo poo Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 22:27 on May 12, 2019 |
|
#
?
May 12, 2019 22:25
|
|
|
lol @ this thread having such a high opinion of itself 'the conclusions have been challenged' literally just means 'eeeeh I don't like the /tone/ there when they said these objective facts...these guys may be biased against people starving because the US is angry' coming from randos itt. Even the loving us government admits the sanctions are harshly affecting life in the country and are using that as leverage.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2019 22:27
|
|
|
i like how the claims that the cepr paper are flawed use hosed up scales and other tricks to mislead https://twitter.com/frrodriguezc/status/1125422353725435904 https://twitter.com/frrodriguezc/status/1125422355486998528 https://twitter.com/frrodriguezc/status/1125422357978517504 sexpig by night posted:lol @ this thread having such a high opinion of itself 'the conclusions have been challenged' literally just means 'eeeeh I don't like the /tone/ there when they said these objective facts...these guys may be biased against people starving because the US is angry' coming from randos itt. Even the loving us government admits the sanctions are harshly affecting life in the country and are using that as leverage. is that the refutation? i thought they had discussed it more in depth than that, or were at least leaning on hausmann's interpretation
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2019 22:29
|
|
|
^^^tbh I'm being nice by ascribing most of the 'refutations' to general skepticism rather than people literally believing the creep who helped drain the country for international powers saying 'actually sanctions are fine'. 'by sanctioning Venezuela and preventing people from getting medicine and food we are, at best, likely making an already bad situation worse for the people while not doing much to our alleged true targets.' me in the corner wringing my hands so hard my wrists pop: 'but...what if you have some kind of agenda?'
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2019 22:32
|
|
|
sexpig by night posted:lol @ this thread having such a high opinion of itself 'the conclusions have been challenged' literally just means 'eeeeh I don't like the /tone/ there when they said these objective facts...these guys may be biased against people starving because the US is angry' coming from randos itt. Even the loving us government admits the sanctions are harshly affecting life in the country and are using that as leverage. speaking for myself and, I think, Discendo (dunno about Nun), it's a cheap easy response especially when something's been litigated over and over and over and over and over and it's frankly kinda tiring to do it a seventeenth time but I try to elaborate at least a little to make this thread a slightly less terrible place Saying the sanctions had a negative impact is almost trivially true; assertions about the actual magnitude of the impact (particularly pre late 2018 horrible horrible sanctions, particularly particularly pre 2016) are more difficult and the tweet's specific conclusion is stupid and unsupported. edit: or rather the reasoning in the report iirc is stupid, but I'll try and go reread it soon so we can have something even more substantive than the Discendo angrypost I can't be bothered to find on my phone Goatse James Bond fucked around with this message at 22:36 on May 12, 2019 |
|
#
?
May 12, 2019 22:33
|
|
|
GreyjoyBastard posted:the tweet's specific conclusion is stupid and unsupported. what's your reasoning for that?
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2019 22:35
|
|
|
GreyjoyBastard posted:speaking for myself and, I think, Discendo (dunno about Nun), it's a cheap easy response especially when something's been litigated over and over and over and over and over and it's frankly kinda tiring to do it a seventeenth time the tweet, and the study as a whole, are literally just saying that at best our sanctions took an economy already on the downfall and strapped a few weights to it while screaming 'look how fast it's falling proof that we were right about them'. You can't have it both ways, you can't agree that the sanctions having a negative impact is 'almost trivially true' and then say that extrapolating that into tangible results is wrong
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2019 22:35
|
|
|
GreyjoyBastard posted:speaking for myself and, I think, Discendo (dunno about Nun), it's a cheap easy response especially when something's been litigated over and over and over and over and over and it's frankly kinda tiring to do it a seventeenth time No one has a gun to anyones head forcing yous to post about something that you don't want to or have already doneso previously. Maybe others would like to discuss it. It's incredibly arrogant to just handwave away something because its already been "litigated" 
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2019 22:37
|
|
|
sexpig by night posted:the tweet, and the study as a whole, are literally just saying that at best our sanctions took an economy already on the downfall and strapped a few weights to it while screaming 'look how fast it's falling proof that we were right about them'. You can't have it both ways, you can't agree that the sanctions having a negative impact is 'almost trivially true' and then say that extrapolating that into tangible results is wrong "The sanctions caused tens of thousands of deaths [prior to 2019]" is the sort of thing you need to show your work on. And if your work is wrong, it should be called out and people should stop repeating that alleged fact. Condiv: I'll ponder the Rodriguez stuff when I reread the report. Thanks for posting it.
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2019 22:39
|
|
|
sexpig by night posted:lol @ this thread having such a high opinion of itself 'the conclusions have been challenged' literally just means 'eeeeh I don't like the /tone/ there when they said these objective facts...these guys may be biased against people starving because the US is angry' coming from randos itt. Even the loving us government admits the sanctions are harshly affecting life in the country and are using that as leverage. Wait is it this or was there too nuanced of a critique? You don't seem to know exactly what you are trying to say thatfatkid posted:No one has a gun to anyones head forcing yous to post about something that you don't want to or have already doneso previously. Maybe others would like to discuss it. It's incredibly arrogant to just handwave away something because its already been "litigated" If you want to discuss it, go ahead. Sexpig is heeming & hawing because he didn't like the tone of the analysis the last time it was discussed Kawasaki Nun fucked around with this message at 23:09 on May 12, 2019 |
|
#
?
May 12, 2019 23:04
|
|
|
rest assured i am currently pursuing my copy of shattered glass to maintain all standards of journalistic excellence* you have been warned i would have liked to have it be a jayson blair reference but there isn't a jayson blair movie on par with the hilarious hayden christensen one
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2019 23:27
|
|
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R752GGWK_s8
|
|
#
?
May 12, 2019 23:48
|
|
|
GreyjoyBastard posted:speaking for myself and, I think, Discendo (dunno about Nun), it's a cheap easy response especially when something's been litigated over and over and over and over and over and it's frankly kinda tiring to do it a seventeenth time IIRC Discendo's rebuttal was simply that the paper was categorizing any deaths that happened at all in Venezuela as being caused by the sanctions. I don't know if that's really the case, I haven't read the paper, but if you're planning on reading it do tell us if you agree. Also when a topic that has been covered before comes up you can instead of complaining about it provide a recap of where the discussion had arrived, so that it can be continued rather than restarted. Don't act like the case was closed, it rarely is the case, and the fact that some people were posting itt for a long time doesn't give them the right to shoo away new posters who would like to discuss topics that were already covered, this forum is for everybody. The whole "we've been over this" shtick serves only as a futile attempt to shut down discussion and only just annoys people and degrades the discourse. If as an old time poster you can't be bothered to go over old topics for the benefit of newcomers then maybe just don't post and wait until something that's interesting to you comes along
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2019 00:06
|
|
|
Zidrooner posted:IIRC Discendo's rebuttal was simply that the paper was categorizing any deaths that happened at all in Venezuela as being caused by the sanctions. I don't know if that's really the case, I haven't read the paper, but if you're planning on reading it do tell us if you agree. yeah I agree with all this and was saying that I UNDERSTAND the frustrated low effort posts and here's why, but I strive to be a better poster than that as should we all  Like, if I'm tempted to do the same personally or see someone I respect do it, I'll at least throw in an addendum like "tldr of the discussion, the supreme court declared democracy is for nerds and Maduro's fake parallel legislature is the only legislature, lol get owned oppositionailures" or whatever my one-paragraph unsourced recollection of the topic at hand is. also your first bit is my recollection of the paper's argument too and I thought at the time it was unsupported and therefore bad
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2019 00:27
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/jguaido/status/...ingawful.com%2F
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2019 03:32
|
|
|
Calling for US military intervention, increased world wide sanctions, and takeover of embassies.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2019 03:33
|
|
|
Wait that tweet is talking about the European Union? It doesn't seem to say anything about US military intervention? Do you speak spanish?
Kawasaki Nun fucked around with this message at 06:24 on May 13, 2019 |
|
#
?
May 13, 2019 06:21
|
|
|
Guaido may have completely lost his mind but that tweet says literally nothing about the USA. It's entirely about the EU.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2019 06:29
|
|
|
i, for one, am these days willing to grant that guaido is bad
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2019 06:56
|
|
|
GreyjoyBastard posted:i, for one, am these days willing to grant that guaido is bad He is very bad and doesn't seem to be getting better
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2019 07:16
|
|
|
Vincent Van Goatse posted:Guaido may have completely lost his mind but that tweet says literally nothing about the USA. It's entirely about the EU. Most likely just referencing this from yesterday:  https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...s-idUSKCN1SH0L3 Or possibly this from 3 days ago:  https://www.reuters.com/article/SOMNIA-idUSKCN1SG0GQ
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2019 07:33
|
|
|
Kawasaki Nun posted:Well like another posted pointed out it's a fairly massive industry that, while the major outlets are controlled by a relative few, still consists of the operation of hundreds of different outlets. quote:In a democratic republic, Engels continues, “wealth exercises its power indirectly, but all the more surely”, first, by means of the “direct corruption of officials” (America); secondly, by means of an “alliance of the government and the Stock Exchange” (France and America). you can transpose the analysis of the state here to any industry under capitalism.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2019 08:40
|
|
|
R. Guyovich posted:you can transpose the analysis of the state here to any industry under capitalism. By extension, it also applies to current Venezuela and its "new" wealthy class (and to its "old" one as well). Unless one wishes to argue that corruption and capitalism are totally non-existent there.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2019 08:49
|
|
|
wielder posted:By extension, it also applies to current Venezuela and its "new" wealthy class (and to its "old" one as well). Unless one wishes to argue that corruption and capitalism are totally non-existent there. venezuela has not yet built a dictatorship of the proletariat, it's true. that does not mean the state is functionally identical to the one described by lenin in the above passage.
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2019 10:21
|
|
|
fermun posted:Most likely just referencing this from yesterday: Yeah my bad for assuming people would remember Guaidó calling for us military invasion just a few days prior
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2019 11:28
|
|
|
This appeared in my feed today https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yvh_mCQbExk One of the claims it makes is that there is irrefutable proof that there was CIA involvement in the 2002 coup. Checking online I can find allegations (with the most damning thing being that the CIA apparently knew about the whole coup before it happened) but the only claims that cite is a factual truth is... Telesur  Do you know anything about this, OP? Sorta interested to see if I'm missing something obvious. Best I could find was this, which points out some of the golpistas were well connected with people in the Bush administration.
Azran fucked around with this message at 12:45 on May 13, 2019 |
|
#
?
May 13, 2019 12:38
|
|
|
It's almost like it is very difficult to come up with definitive information regarding secret service activities, as those documents are likely to remain secrets foreseeably for the next 50 years, so you have to go on inference and connections. That obviously means you can't really pierce the layer of plausible deniability, so it's hard to say for sure whether connections are there, but, you know, you do foreign policy analysis, you look at who's involved and who they're friends with and you get a pretty reliable guess. My god, are you guys seriously expecting the CIA to leave a letter around saying "yeah me and my pals (names follow) totally did a coup last week, signed, the director of all the spies". If it did, it'd be like "On [REDACTED for a full page], Signature"
mortons stork fucked around with this message at 12:55 on May 13, 2019 |
|
#
?
May 13, 2019 12:51
|
|
|
I mean, it's been almost two decades from that and two administrations have since gone by, maybe something popped up in the meantime and I wasn't able to find it? Especially given all the leaks of recent times. There's no denying the US has always had a vested interest in Venezuela, but the "THE CIA IS EVERYWHERE AND WILL NEVER TELL YOU ANYTHING" has been used to justify all sorts of stupid claims made by chavistas during the last decade or so. Just last week I had to hear a two hour long spiel about how the US is currently deploying troops in Venezuela and we haven't heard anything because of CIA interference. But there's a difference between stuff going on now and stuff from almost two decades ago; wasn't the 'Iraq has weapons of mass destruction' argument proven untrue in the last few years? The video I linked, for example, says Leopoldo Lopez is from a well-off family of aristocrats and pretty well connected to both the CIA and high Bush-era government officials, as well as a violent man. Which sounds like justification for the measures taken by Maduro and Chavez against him. So I'm taking it with a pinch of salt and checking what I can.  People in this thread (particularly Chuck) have proven tremendously knowledgeable on the topic before, so... 
Azran fucked around with this message at 13:20 on May 13, 2019 |
|
#
?
May 13, 2019 13:15
|
|
|
The measures taken against Lopez might also have something to do with how, inter alia, during the 2002 coup he took it upon himself to https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/07/27/the-making-of-leopoldo-lopez-democratic-venezuela-opposition/ quote:López’s most controversial episode remains the April 12 arrest and detention of then-Interior Minister Ramón Rodríguez Chacín. López, mayor of Chacao at the time, and Capriles, then-mayor of Baruta (another Caracas municipality), saying they had been tipped off by neighbors, showed up at a house where Chacín was staying, unguarded, to personally charge him with responsibility for the 19 shooting deaths that had taken place the previous day. As opposition supporters and media gathered outside the house in Baruta, the two mayors took him into custody. ETA: sorry if I sound aggressive, I am not having a good day and I should not take it out on fellow forums posters. I'm editing this post down to the fundamentals of information, and dial down on the snark for the future. mortons stork fucked around with this message at 13:42 on May 13, 2019 |
|
#
?
May 13, 2019 13:33
|
|
|
mortons stork posted:The measures taken against Lopez might also have something to do with how, inter alia, during the 2002 coup he took it upon himself to It's all good, don't worry. 
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2019 13:53
|
|
|
Azran posted:wasn't the 'Iraq has weapons of mass destruction' argument proven untrue in the last few years? But we all knew it was untrue at the time. This is the problem with waiting for intelligence agencies and administrations to tell on themselves. You're always going to be decades behind the obvious truth. Same with Chile, we didn't have definitive proof that the US had a hand in Pinochet's coup for decades. The UK's role in the coup against Mosadegh was only fully revealed a few years ago too. This coup is almost unique in how open the US has been in revealing its hand. WhiskeyWhiskers fucked around with this message at 14:01 on May 13, 2019 |
|
#
?
May 13, 2019 13:57
|
|
|
https://twitter.com/marcorubio/status/1127915213775228928?s=21
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2019 14:27
|
|
|
Well Guiado sucks, though Twitter seems to be a dtaunch all of the Maduro regime by enabling this kind of sloppy idiocy it get telegraphed the world round
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2019 14:55
|
|
|
WhiskeyWhiskers posted:But we all knew it was untrue at the time. This is the problem with waiting for intelligence agencies and administrations to tell on themselves. You're always going to be decades behind the obvious truth. Same with Chile, we didn't have definitive proof that the US had a hand in Pinochet's coup for decades. The UK's role in the coup against Mosadegh was only fully revealed a few years ago too. This coup is almost unique in how open the US has been in revealing its hand. It was the inquiry in the UK that we learned that they used the film the rock for evidence of wmds
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2019 14:58
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 22, 2024 03:48 |
|
|
Kawasaki Nun posted:So you're under the impression that they only hire journalistic talent that conforms with their political ideology? And the remaining talented would-be journalists are simply blacklisted from the American media employment system? are you really this uninformed? journalists that don't tow the line are absolutely blacklisted, that's why chris hedges hasn't found a gig in mainstream media since he left the nyt during the lead up to iraq. they reprimanded him for writing a piece critical of the case for war and told him to knock it off phil donahue was also let go from msnbc during the build up for war according to an internal memo because he opposed it no billionaires don't actually dictate the day to day operations of nyt or wapo but the people who land high paying jobs there quickly learn to self-censor if they want to keep them (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
|
|
#
?
May 13, 2019 16:24
|
|
