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Conspiratiorist posted:It doesn't work because Aw drat, foiled again.
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May 12, 2019 19:56
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Conspiratiorist posted:It doesn't work because This is exactly the exception that's carved out for spellcasting. You could just as easily say that you're performing the Attack Action on your turn and releasing it with your reaction when the trigger occurs. There's no RAW issue there, since the ready action simply says "choose the action you will take". The Crawford interpretation is just "realism" nonsense and should 100% be ignored because it adds nothing to the game. He has no problem with a wizard "readying" a fireball behind a rock so she can't be seen and countered, popping out and casting it on the same turn, directing their Flaming Sphere around with a bonus action, and then jumping back behind the rock. But if a weapon gets involved then supposedly it's all too complicated. Forget all that and just play the game. Kaal fucked around with this message at 20:40 on May 12, 2019 |
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May 12, 2019 19:59
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Verisimilidude posted:But also, like, in D&D (outside of normal real life interaction) we're strictly talking about different species, not races. I get it, but it's also kinda eye-roll inducing to be like "it's racist that elves are smarter than halflings" It's actually far more interesting to engage with these differences, like say an in-setting bias (and source of prejudice) that Elven lives are more valuable because they live so much longer. But if you want a sanitized game to avoid allusions to real life issues that might bother some people, you can play Ryuutama instead of this elfgame that is literally about living in violent worlds were you accrue power by killing.
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May 12, 2019 20:00
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At its heart D&D is about fighting monsters and having adventures. I think there's definitely room for having adventures while still doing away with poo poo like "orcs are eternally angry savages who create nothing and want nothing but to murder the whi- I mean, civilized races" Like that tweet brings up Strahd and Tomb of Horrors which I think have totally salvageable stuff in them if you pull back hard from poo poo like the Vistani. I think fighting Dracula in his evil castle is totally a thing you can do without being super colonialist about the whole thing. Dracula's a fuckin jerk screw that dude.
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May 12, 2019 20:04
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Verisimilidude posted:But also, like, in D&D (outside of normal real life interaction) we're strictly talking about different species, not races. I get it, but it's also kinda eye-roll inducing to be like "it's racist that elves are smarter than halflings" I also think this is a horseshit argument because the game calls them races and a lot of them can interbreed (and we don't really know explicitly if elves and dwarves can or can't produce children, just that the writers aren't interested in talking about elfdwarves), I don't think it's "eye-rolling" at all to give poo poo like that the side-eye.
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May 12, 2019 20:07
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Josef bugman posted:So, I have a question to ask everyone. Make all your adventures situations where it's ok to murder things and take their stuff. For example, if you are killing literal hell demons who came through a portal just to gently caress up some peasants' poo poo, you're probably in the clear.
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May 12, 2019 20:18
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Glagha posted:I also think this is a horseshit argument because the game calls them races and a lot of them can interbreed (and we don't really know explicitly if elves and dwarves can or can't produce children, just that the writers aren't interested in talking about elfdwarves), I don't think it's "eye-rolling" at all to give poo poo like that the side-eye. I get that, and it's an issue that can be looked at from both angles. The book calls them races incorrectly, since race strictly refers to differences between groups within the same species. An elf is, even within the context of the D&D universe, not an offshoot of other races. They're distinct creations of gods, which just further complicates the topic. I'd much rather do away with the concept of race entirely, at the very least by naming it something else. I think Pathfinder is doing something good by calling it "ancestry", but they also go against that progressive idea by adding "ancestral feats" that are tied strictly to what your ancestry is, and by keeping bonuses/negatives tied to that ancestry.
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May 12, 2019 20:21
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I mean, removing half-(whatever) as things least starts the process.
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May 12, 2019 20:23
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Verisimilidude posted:I'd much rather do away with the concept of race entirely, at the very least by naming it something else. I think Pathfinder is doing something good by calling it "ancestry", but they also go against that progressive idea by adding "ancestral feats" that are tied strictly to what your ancestry is, and by keeping bonuses/negatives tied to that ancestry.
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May 12, 2019 20:35
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Toplowtech posted:The thing is D&D setting is basically an excuse for a western-age frontier game, except you don't give blankets to the native goblins. I like that type of game.
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May 12, 2019 20:53
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Verisimilidude posted:I like that type of game.
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May 12, 2019 21:00
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Verisimilidude posted:I get that, and it's an issue that can be looked at from both angles. The book calls them races incorrectly, since race strictly refers to differences between groups within the same species. An elf is, even within the context of the D&D universe, not an offshoot of other races. They're distinct creations of gods, which just further complicates the topic. I get where you're coming from but I feel like saying "Oh, Elves are a completely different sort of people created by the gods to be prettier and smarter than the other ones" still kinda runs into the same issues. This isn't like a call to action or something I'm just saying that even if we have elves and dwarves as being distinctly different creations of the gods still falls into the same category of kinda uncomfortable poo poo. It's still these people are stronger/smarter/better? than these others kinds of people except we take a pre-genetics view on it. Honestly taking ability scores away from races and giving them to classes is probably better, but letting everyone keep their cultural/supernatural stuff? Elves still don't sleep, gnomes get to talk to badgers or whatever. From a gameplay concept too I feel like it's better to such that every class isn't just typecast into being an elf/dwarf/orc or whatever just because they're statistically better at it. Makes it so your games are way more varied.
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May 12, 2019 21:15
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Everyone should rip-off 13th Age where races are socially driven. If a bunch of elves go and live in a human city then their kids start looking more and more like humans down the generations, even there's no out breeding.
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May 12, 2019 21:25
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Glagha posted:I get where you're coming from but I feel like saying "Oh, Elves are a completely different sort of people created by the gods to be prettier and smarter than the other ones" still kinda runs into the same issues. This isn't like a call to action or something I'm just saying that even if we have elves and dwarves as being distinctly different creations of the gods still falls into the same category of kinda uncomfortable poo poo. It's still these people are stronger/smarter/better? than these others kinds of people except we take a pre-genetics view on it. Honestly taking ability scores away from races and giving them to classes is probably better, but letting everyone keep their cultural/supernatural stuff? Elves still don't sleep, gnomes get to talk to badgers or whatever. From a gameplay concept too I feel like it's better to such that every class isn't just typecast into being an elf/dwarf/orc or whatever just because they're statistically better at it. Makes it so your games are way more varied. I agree completely
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May 12, 2019 22:22
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I mean you're still advocating for distinct traits for various races/species/whatever, just not the traits that make you uncomfortable I'm not sure what that achieves
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May 13, 2019 00:03
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Glagha posted:I get where you're coming from but I feel like saying "Oh, Elves are a completely different sort of people created by the gods to be prettier and smarter than the other ones" still kinda runs into the same issues. This isn't like a call to action or something I'm just saying that even if we have elves and dwarves as being distinctly different creations of the gods still falls into the same category of kinda uncomfortable poo poo. It's still these people are stronger/smarter/better? than these others kinds of people except we take a pre-genetics view on it. Honestly taking ability scores away from races and giving them to classes is probably better, but letting everyone keep their cultural/supernatural stuff? Elves still don't sleep, gnomes get to talk to badgers or whatever. From a gameplay concept too I feel like it's better to such that every class isn't just typecast into being an elf/dwarf/orc or whatever just because they're statistically better at it. Makes it so your games are way more varied. Gotta agree with all this. Anything that encourages less stereotypical class/race combos is a positive step and that’s an easy way to sidestep the pseudogenetics shenanigans.
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May 13, 2019 00:17
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Adlai Stevenson posted:I mean you're still advocating for distinct traits for various races/species/whatever, just not the traits that make you uncomfortable Yeah, there's some lack of self-awareness going on here. To be fair, there is a compelling argument to be made, but it's not the one I'm seeing.
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May 13, 2019 00:22
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I’m just a fan as an easy, quick fix that goes in the right direction. It definitely doesn’t address the whole problem.
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May 13, 2019 00:50
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Not even final build, but my Assassin 13/Battlemaster 3 on a surprise round is chucking +14 heavy crossbow shots with advantage and a maneuver rider (disarm for the first and trip for the second, usually). The auto-crit for each is 2d10+2d8+14d6+7 which is 25-127 (avg 76), and I snag an extra 4d6 on the first one for being a Bugbear. I can also throw on the -5/+10 from Sharpshooter if I feel like the target's AC is low enough. Worst case, I can force hits with Precision attack if I roll like double 5 or lower. So, total alpha without SS is like... 54-278 (avg. 166). That's just a stock +2 bow, though. Bump it up to a +3, or swap in an Oathbow, or slap in some +2 ammo. It's entirely reasonable to get up to 200 damage on the initial volley. And that's without any attunement slots. I know a lot of folks like to slap a Storm Giant Belt on to get that +9 hit/damage. Makes Sharpshooter more viable. Even then... I still feel outclasses by full casters, so whatever, live your best life.
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May 13, 2019 00:58
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Why Trip? It gives you disadvantage. ED: NVM you're setting up for your teammates since your attacks will be done.
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May 13, 2019 01:01
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Yes, I'm ok with dragon people getting the ability to breath fire as a trait for being born as a dragon person in a fantasy game.
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May 13, 2019 01:13
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Adlai Stevenson posted:I mean you're still advocating for distinct traits for various races/species/whatever, just not the traits that make you uncomfortable I would think it's more "not the traits that real-life groups have ascribed to racial groups and used to justify calling themselves superior beings and killing/enslaving others". Granted some minorities have probably been accused of never sleeping/talking to animals at some point in history, but I don't think those are as present in modern discourse.
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May 13, 2019 01:26
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Speaking of uncomfortable implications of fantasy “races,” which D&D race would be the closest equivalent to Italians? I want my kobold rogue to have joined the mafia after living with alley cats behind a restaurant, and getting apprenticed in after they caught him stealing a meatball off someone’s plate. I was thinking gnomes.
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May 13, 2019 01:32
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There's nothing quite as consistent and not racist as the complete erasure of cultural differences
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May 13, 2019 01:33
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Adlai Stevenson posted:I mean you're still advocating for distinct traits for various races/species/whatever, just not the traits that make you uncomfortable I mean you really don't see the difference between "elves magically don't sleep" and "gnomes can speak to animals" and "these people are just more intelligent, by nature, than the other kinds of people"? I feel like this is a bad faith argument. Hint the difference is completely fictional fantasy traits applied to different kinds of beings as opposed to things that are rooted in centuries of bad, racist science. The problem isn't that dwarves are different than elves, it's that applying this mathy inherent differences poo poo has some uncomfortable parallels to real life, and is also kinda lovely game design because it makes people pick their race based on what they want their character to do, rather than just... What you want to be. Focusing on the magical fantasy poo poo and cultural differences rather than bell-curving people is yes, more comfortable. Edit: hot take: do away with ability scores entirely.
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May 13, 2019 01:33
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A lot of that stuff is just a big semantic problem, also. Take "Intelligence", for example. If you call a stat in a game that, people are going to read it and go "okay, so characters who don't have this are stupid", but that isn't even true in D&D. In real life we (people who aren't weird bigots) understand intelligence to be a complicated thing that isn't a single binary or variable, is insanely difficult to accurately conceptualize and measure, and is culture-bound. Several of the other ability scores - particularly Wisdom and Charisma, but also to some extent Dexterity at least - also represent qualities that, in real life, are part of the spectrum of things that constitute "intelligence". So do skill, tool, language, and saving throw proficiency, and some class abilities. Having a penalty to Intelligence doesn't mean your character is "stupid" at all, in any meaningful sense, but it sure reads that way because of the language the ability score uses.
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May 13, 2019 01:39
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Glagha posted:I mean you really don't see the difference between "elves magically don't sleep" and "gnomes can speak to animals" and "these people are just more intelligent, by nature, than the other kinds of people"? I feel like this is a bad faith argument. Hint the difference is completely fictional fantasy traits applied to different kinds of beings as opposed to things that are rooted in centuries of bad, racist science. Nah, you're just electing to draw the line about what level of metaphor is acceptable in a different place. Nobody has to be arguing in bad faith for that to happen.
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May 13, 2019 01:43
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Glagha posted:Edit: hot take: do away with ability scores entirely. Bonuses for classes are better, but then we get into harder situations because "I can fly" or "I have innate resistance to some damage type" automatically wins in the same way as "I get a free feat" made 90% of 3.x edition players human. In the end, it's a game, and DMs can/should make the world less grognardy No. 1 Apartheid Fan posted:A lot of that stuff is just a big semantic problem, also. Take "Intelligence", for example. If you call a stat in a game that, people are going to read it and go "okay, so characters who don't have this are stupid", but that isn't even true in D&D. In real life we (people who aren't weird bigots) understand intelligence to be a complicated thing that isn't a single binary or variable, is insanely difficult to accurately conceptualize and measure, and is culture-bound. Several of the other ability scores - particularly Wisdom and Charisma, but also to some extent Dexterity at least - also represent qualities that, in real life, are part of the spectrum of things that constitute "intelligence". So do skill, tool, language, and saving throw proficiency, and some class abilities. Having a penalty to Intelligence doesn't mean your character is "stupid" at all, in any meaningful sense, but it sure reads that way because of the language the ability score uses. IQ is culture bound in the sense that it's linked to socioeconomics. But the reality is that it's 6 variables to represent a lot more in person. Surely we all know someone who is book smart but lacks any common sense, someone who's smart but completely unable to relate to people, someone who's wise but couldn't persuade a cop in NOLA to let him out of public intoxication Not everyone is equally smart, strong, nimble, or whatever. That's just life. Yes, D&D takes it to extremes sometimes (as do fantasy novels), but having a penalty to intelligence does mean your character is dumb in the same way as Fry from Futurama, and there's nothing wrong with that. Again, it's a game, and ability scores come with concrete advantages. It is not intended to be representative of whether Joe Dirt has some ancillary intelligence metric at which he'd beat Chomsky
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May 13, 2019 01:50
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Glagha posted:I mean you really don't see the difference between "elves magically don't sleep" and "gnomes can speak to animals" and "these people are just more intelligent, by nature, than the other kinds of people"? I feel like this is a bad faith argument. Hint the difference is completely fictional fantasy traits applied to different kinds of beings as opposed to things that are rooted in centuries of bad, racist science. The problem isn't that dwarves are different than elves, it's that applying this mathy inherent differences poo poo has some uncomfortable parallels to real life, and is also kinda lovely game design because it makes people pick their race based on what they want their character to do, rather than just... What you want to be. Focusing on the magical fantasy poo poo and cultural differences rather than bell-curving people is yes, more comfortable. If we're applying racist origins to these numbers a lot of the "fantasy traits" applied to current DnD races aren't very different from the stigma applied to various Othered groups and indigenous peoples. Tales of mystical abilities and shadowy strengths, you'd do well not to travel there at night, stranger! You're splitting hairs if you treat them differently while viewing the situation under the lens of racism and colonialism. But truthfully I think that if your inclination is to see this world's injustice while gazing into the infinite abyss of possibility that DnD offers then you're wasting opportunities to fashion a better place and use it to enrich your own life. Oh and if you think I'm arguing in bad faith, well, good for you I guess
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May 13, 2019 01:52
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I'm currently homebrewing a D&D ruleset that eliminates stats entirely. Everything is instead tied to your class's saving throws and skills. Skills and saving throws have tiers (trained, skilled, expert, master) that increase based on your character level and class.
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May 13, 2019 01:52
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Adlai Stevenson posted:If we're applying racist origins to these numbers a lot of the "fantasy traits" applied to current DnD races aren't very different from the stigma applied to various Othered groups and indigenous peoples. Tales of mystical abilities and shadowy strengths, you'd do well not to travel there at night, stranger! You're splitting hairs if you treat them differently while viewing the situation under the lens of racism and colonialism. But what do you do when you're applying these traits to fantastical races and beings that actually can do these things?
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May 13, 2019 01:56
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Verisimilidude posted:But what do you do when you're applying these traits to fantastical races and beings that actually can do these things? Well, where are we drawing the line? Is it okay to reflect a gnome's natural talents as an affinity for noodling around with useful objects? Is it okay to reflect an elf's traditional experience and knowledge with higher base INT? Is it okay to reflect a triton's lineal circumstances with underwater breathing? These are all aspects derivative of traditional stories that could still be construed as overly stereotypical. As someone who has no issue with explicitly fantasy races all being fundamentally whackadoo different from one another I think it's all neat
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May 13, 2019 02:04
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Adlai Stevenson posted:Well, where are we drawing the line? Is it okay to reflect a gnome's natural talents as an affinity for noodling around with useful objects? Is it okay to reflect an elf's traditional experience and knowledge with higher base INT? Is it okay to reflect a triton's lineal circumstances with underwater breathing? These are all aspects derivative of traditional stories that could still be construed as overly stereotypical. I think removing physical/mental stat bonuses from race removes stigma regarding racial superiority in certain facets. It also increases creativity by giving players one less barrier regarding what character they want to play, because it's no longer sub optimal to play certain class/race combinations. I like the idea of races still having abilities that make them unique that aren't tied to statistics. I think it's weird, old fashioned and boring to have statistics be the main contributing factor of what race/class combos should be.
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May 13, 2019 02:18
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Anyone got a ~3rd level adventure with a small town and nearby rear end in a top hat wizard? I've got the kernel of an idea for short adventure where a wizard is "stealing" words from a nearby village (thanks Austin Walker!) I'd like some bones to lay that idea on.
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May 13, 2019 02:25
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Verisimilidude posted:I think removing physical/mental stat bonuses from race removes stigma regarding racial superiority in certain facets. It also increases creativity by giving players one less barrier regarding what character they want to play, because it's no longer sub optimal to play certain class/race combinations. If racial attribute scores are your main factor in deciding what to mix and match then I guess we build characters in a fundamentally different way
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May 13, 2019 02:36
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Adlai Stevenson posted:If racial attribute scores are your main factor in deciding what to mix and match then I guess we build characters in a fundamentally different way Not just me, but the vast majority of people I know who play D&D will only make characters with stats that match their class. This thread alone has hundreds of posts with people looking for optimal character combinations. I'm glad you don't feel the need to adhere to those standards, but it can really take the wind out of your sails knowing that you could've been getting another +1 or 2 to every roll you make if you chose one race over another. And if you don't even consider your racial stat bonuses on character creation, why even bother having them?
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May 13, 2019 02:44
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Adlai Stevenson posted:Well, where are we drawing the line? Is it okay to reflect a gnome's natural talents as an affinity for noodling around with useful objects? Is it okay to reflect an elf's traditional experience and knowledge with higher base INT? Is it okay to reflect a triton's lineal circumstances with underwater breathing? These are all aspects derivative of traditional stories that could still be construed as overly stereotypical. "These people are smarter, those people are stronger, these other people are inherently more likeable" stuff has uncomfortable present-day real-world parallels, while "these people spit fire, those other people breathe underwater, these other people can have conversations with trees" generally does not. Adlai Stevenson posted:As someone who has no issue with explicitly fantasy races all being fundamentally whackadoo different from one another I think it's all neat So reflect that with something fantastic rather than "humans, but a bit smarter on average".
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May 13, 2019 02:48
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Verisimilidude posted:Not just me, but the vast majority of people I know who play D&D will only make characters with stats that match their class. This thread alone has hundreds of posts with people looking for optimal character combinations. This is why I just get rid of them and let my players get a free +2 +1 because the game is built around a specific stat progression and you should never be inherently behind the curve based on your race
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May 13, 2019 02:50
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Verisimilidude posted:Not just me, but the vast majority of people I know who play D&D will only make characters with stats that match their class. This thread alone has hundreds of posts with people looking for optimal character combinations. I get that, and I do appreciate the idea of opening up choices, especially to newer players. I just don't think having a +2 somewhere other than tour main stat is a big deal so long as you put that +2 to use wherever it winds up. And I think having races be more substantially different from one another makes a more meaningful choice than if everything is minor reskins of one another with different suggested starting names. I also put a ton of weight into the non stat racial abilities. I'll take a wonky side ability over maximum efficiency nearly every time.
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May 13, 2019 02:50
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Elector_Nerdlingen posted:"These people are smarter, those people are stronger, these other people are inherently more likeable" stuff has uncomfortable present-day real-world parallels, while "these people spit fire, those other people breathe underwater, these other people can have conversations with trees" generally does not. The latter set of examples remind pretty heavily of tales in certain corners of various indigenous peoples. Having there be any differences at all leads to these comparisons. If you see the parallels more in certain aspects, fine. That tendency is a product of your experiences. They're all there, if you want to focus on them. quote:So reflect that with something fantastic rather than "humans, but a bit smarter on average". I feel like this is a pretty salient criticism. In what may be a bid to make a number of the races more relatable to a human audience their basic natures can be rather samey.
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May 13, 2019 02:55
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