Pokemon Megathread: I have very strong feelings about pokemons

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Nodosaur: Dec 23, 2014

Zuzie posted:

The earliest iterations of Red and Green didn't really pin down the general sapience of Pok�mon. They were more like animals that needed to be controlled through fear rather then trust (a few trainer sprites had them holding whips and even the beta Player character had one as well). Nowadays their general intelligence puts them in between "trained dog" to "adult chimpanzee" or "human child", making these earlier practices barbaric.

Also the early anime (including earlier drafts) was written so that the world was a very "crapsacky" one. People needlessly being jerks to Ash was part of it. Then you have other aspects like parental abandonment being common, poverty being a common social problem, and 10 being the age one is considered an adult (including all its various trappings).

If their purpose was to do some kind of commentary on it, then it didn't work out very well, because all those early episodes about characters being a jerk to Ash are framed as him needing to learn a lesson and not the people doing it. Ash is the one in the wrong who needs to grow up and change, not the guy who's blatantly abusing his Pokemon, not the guy who interrupted his attempt to capture Weedle by swinging a sword at him, causing the Beedrill to attack them, only for said rear end in a top hat to put all the blame on Ash for it.

A lot of the first season is filled with this kind of dissonance between the morals it tries to present and is otherwise excessively cruel, even for the tone Tajiri wanted to present. For what people consider to be the heyday of the anime, it's not very good.

Nodosaur fucked around with this message at 14:41 on May 13, 2019

# ? May 13, 2019 14:37

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# ? Jun 6, 2024 20:51

Farecoal: Oct 15, 2011; There he go

Is there a website that tells you if a particular move is poo poo or not?

# ? May 13, 2019 15:07

Iron Crowned: May 6, 2003; by Hand Knit

Farecoal posted:

Is there a website that tells you if a particular move is poo poo or not?

https://forums.somethingawful.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=151

# ? May 13, 2019 15:08

Nasgate: Jun 7, 2011

Farecoal posted:

Is there a website that tells you if a particular move is poo poo or not?

You can always ask here. And while some of it's niche, watching competitive can help give an understanding of what's good if you disregard things like stealth rocks/spikes since they're less good when your opponents don't constantly switch Pokemon. Unless you go all in with 3 spikes and stealth rocks so every new enemy starts at half hp.

# ? May 13, 2019 15:40

Gripweed: Nov 8, 2018; Women are wonderful animals, they should be making music and writing novels about having a complex relationship with your mother.

Holy poo poo Diggersby is a nightmare. Worst Pokemon. Worst anything.

# ? May 13, 2019 16:23

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

Farecoal posted:

Is there a website that tells you if a particular move is poo poo or not?

Smogon tells you the good move combinations for PvP for a given Pokemon. In a single-player context you don't really need a website for that kind of thing, unless you're trying to speedrun or something.

# ? May 13, 2019 16:28

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

Nodosaur posted:

A lot of the first season is filled with this kind of dissonance between the morals it tries to present and is otherwise excessively cruel, even for the tone Tajiri wanted to present. For what people consider to be the heyday of the anime, it's not very good.

People remember Indigo League as the heyday of the anime because the first two thirds of Johto were so bad, I suspect.

Edit: Also, might as well repost this:

Silver2195 posted:

Inspired by recent talk in this thread about good vs. bad anime episodes, my top 10 favorite Kanto episodes, in no particular order:

Battle Aboard the St. Anne/Pokemon Shipwreck/Island of the Giant Pokemon: I like the way the episodes tie into each other instead of being one-off, as well as the relatively serious/intense tone; there should be more eps like these. These eps also show the advantages of deviating from the games: it allows for surprising developments like the Anne sinking. The subtitles in Island of the Giant Pokemon were a cool idea that I wish they'd used again; did 4Kids nix the idea because they felt it defeated the point of dubbing, or did the writers just never use subtitles again because they forgot about this episode?

Charmander � The Stray Pok�mon: One of the darker Kanto episodes, but a visceral way (abandonment + threat of death) rather than a "deconstructive" Shudo way. There's a reason everybody remembers this one.

The Flame Pokemon-athon: There may be some nostalgia involved here (the first manga I ever read was the Electric Tale of Pikachu adaptation of this episode), but I also like episodes that focus on Pokemon competitions other than conventional fights. Even though it's technically a character-of-the-day episode, it doesn't feel like one.

Holy Matrimony!: The episodes that humanize the Team Rocket trio are generally pretty good, even if they tend to introduce contradictions (although that's more of a problem with Jessie-centric episodes than James-centric ones). This is a deeply weird episode full of dark humor, but it also establishes some fundamental points about James' backstory and characterization that the show actually sticks to fairly consistently.

The Ultimate Test: Rental Pokemon battles are cool, but I can understand why the anime doesn't show them more often (it would undercut the thematic focus on the bond between Ash and his Pokemon, plus it would take focus away from Pikachu). Like The School of Hard Knocks, this episode focuses on an alternative means of qualification to collecting badges, but here it comes across as a reasonable accommodation for people with health problems or day jobs, as opposed to the more cynical take in The School of Hard Knocks.

Volcanic Panic: One of only three times Ash actually earns a Kanto badge by beating the normal gym leader in a fair fight. The focus on exploiting the battlefield is a good example of anime characters using tactics that don't work in the games but still make sense (and follows an infamous bad example in the previous episode: "Pikachu! The horn!").

Go West Young Meowth: Another episode that humanizes the Rockets. Also another example of those episodes introducing contradictions (are Meowth normally bipedal or quadrupedal?), but who cares?

The Fourth Round Rumble: A tournament episode that features a Bellsprout, of all Pokemon, being totally awesome.

Honorable mentions for Who Gets to Keep Togepi?, Electric Shock Showdown (the one with Lt. Surge), The Ninja Poke-Showdown, and Showdown at Dark City (the Yojimbo one).

And my top 10 least favorite:

The School of Hard Knocks: Unlikable characters of the day, a weirdly anti-intellectual message, and cynical undertones that don't really go anywhere. Also Brock's creepiest moment.

Hypno's Naptime: There are episodes that revolve around Ash and his friends being idiots, there are episodes that revolve around everyone except Ash and his friends being idiots, and there are episodes like this one, that revolve around everyone including Ash and his friends being idiots.

Beauty and the Beach: In questionable taste and rather pointless.

The March of the Exeggutor Squad: Another unlikable character of the day.

So Near, Yet So Farfetch'd: Unlikable character of the day, weird plotholes.

Attack of the Prehistoric Pokemon: Rather pointless; as Dogasu points out, we don't really learn anything about the fossil Pokemon in this episode except that they never actually went extinct (which defeats the whole concept of fossil Pokemon). Also a good example of how underutilized Gary is (perhaps because many of the most significant moments involving Blue in the games are tied to the Rocket-centric plotlines the anime omits, so there's not much left for him to do).

The Ancient Puzzle of Pok�mopolis: Dogasu views this as basically a less coherent first draft of the second movie, but it would be more accurate to say that they're both examples of one of the anime's standard stock plots, and the second movie just happens to be pretty much the only good version of it. (The Advanced Generation episode Me, Myself, and Time is another example, which combines this plot with elements of the fourth movie's plot and manages to be memorably weird, although I still wouldn't call it good.)

Dig Those Diglett!: One of the anime's weaker stock plots (humans are disrupting Pokemon's habitats, the adults change their minds after being lectured by Ash and friends). Also has a wonderfully absurd moment where Gary claims that Diglett move at the speed of light, and actually gives the speed of light (in metric units in the original, in imperial units in the dub) to make clear that this isn't even intended as hyperbole.

A Chansey Operation: The doctor's behavior towards Misty in this episode makes it feel even skeevier than Beauty and the Beach.

To Master the Onix-pected: Meh.

I actually had to stretch a bit to find 10 I really disliked, although there are a couple (like The Problem with Paras and Make Room for Gloom) that fall into the same "meh" category as To Master the Onix-pected. I guess Kanto was better than I remember.

Silver2195 fucked around with this message at 16:52 on May 13, 2019

# ? May 13, 2019 16:35

less laughter: May 7, 2012; Accelerock & Roll

Gripweed posted:

Holy poo poo Diggersby is a nightmare. Worst Pokemon. Worst anything.

https://twitter.com/rabbit_thing/status/956449854909186048

# ? May 13, 2019 16:56

oddium: Feb 21, 2006; end of the 4.5 tatami age

Gripweed posted:

Holy poo poo Diggersby is a nightmare. Worst Pokemon. Worst anything.

diggersby though ??

# ? May 13, 2019 17:02

oddium: Feb 21, 2006; end of the 4.5 tatami age

ah dang beaten kind of

# ? May 13, 2019 17:03

Ignite Memories: Feb 27, 2005

Diggersby is an offensive monster and I love him

# ? May 13, 2019 17:20

Ziddar: Jul 24, 2003; Time Travel: Not Even Once

okay maybe a few times

Ignite Memories posted:

Diggersby is an ~~offensive~~ cute monster and I love ~~him~~ her.

# ? May 13, 2019 17:25

less laughter: May 7, 2012; Accelerock & Roll

Yeah with her Hidden Ability she's the best of the regional rodents after Bibarel

# ? May 13, 2019 17:27

Gripweed: Nov 8, 2018; Women are wonderful animals, they should be making music and writing novels about having a complex relationship with your mother.

less laughter posted:

https://twitter.com/rabbit_thing/status/956449854909186048

Ziddar posted:

See how they have to drastically change at least it's face to make it's cute

# ? May 13, 2019 17:28

YaketySass: Jan 15, 2019; Blind Idiot Dog

does it have hand bones in its ears

# ? May 13, 2019 17:30

less laughter: May 7, 2012; Accelerock & Roll

they turn into a drill

# ? May 13, 2019 17:33

Flopsy: Mar 4, 2013

Geostomp posted:

Early Pok�mon had a nasty tendency to introduce rear end in a top hat characters of the day that caused the episode�s problem, but still blame Ash for it all when he dared react reasonably. Remember that samurai kid from the Buttefree episode? Yeah.

Oh they never really stopped. Remember Paul and his "alternative training?" yeaaahhhhhhhhh

# ? May 13, 2019 17:49

Paul.Power: Feb 7, 2009; The three roles of APCs:
Transports.
Supply trucks.
Distractions.

I've never used Diggersby (actually I think that's a lie, I think I used one once for the Cyllage City gym but I had a bunch of other anti-rock Pokémon for that so eh) but I kinda like that it's just this slobby construction worker rabbit with excavator arms for ears.

Paul.Power fucked around with this message at 18:53 on May 13, 2019

# ? May 13, 2019 18:50

less laughter: May 7, 2012; Accelerock & Roll

And her shiny is based on Bugs Bunny so that's automatic cool points.

# ? May 13, 2019 18:53

Nodosaur: Dec 23, 2014

YaketySass posted:

does it have hand bones in its ears

it's a cartoon rabbit

# ? May 13, 2019 19:00

Pentaro: May 5, 2013

Diggersby is Homer Simpson after a tragic teleporting accident. I love him.

# ? May 13, 2019 19:04

Ignite Memories: Feb 27, 2005

There is no Pokemon cooler than my diggersby Dirt McGuirk

# ? May 13, 2019 19:07

Fantastic Foreskin: Jan 6, 2013; A golden helix streaked skyward from the Helvault. A thunderous explosion shattered the silver monolith and Avacyn emerged, free from her prison at last.

Pentaro posted:

Diggersby is Homer Simpson after a tragic teleporting accident. I love him.

Simpsons did it.

# ? May 13, 2019 19:07

Farecoal: Oct 15, 2011; There he go

Gripweed posted:

See how they have to drastically change at least it's face to make it's cute

Verdict: it's cute

# ? May 13, 2019 19:12

Iron Crowned: May 6, 2003; by Hand Knit

Ignite Memories posted:

There is no Pokemon cooler than my diggersby Dirt McGuirk

Thats a funny way to spell "my Jigglypuff Violent J"

# ? May 13, 2019 19:13

indigi: Jul 20, 2004; ^{how can we not talk about family

when family's all that we got?}

Iron Crowned posted:

Thats a funny way to spell "my Jigglypuff Violent J"

this is truly embarrassing

# ? May 13, 2019 19:58

Iron Crowned: May 6, 2003; by Hand Knit

indigi posted:

this is truly embarrassing

I've been naming Jigglypuffs Violent J since RBY

# ? May 13, 2019 20:01

Farecoal: Oct 15, 2011; There he go

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_8Wg3vXHfg

:3:

# ? May 13, 2019 20:13

Fur20: Nov 14, 2007; すご▞い！
君は働か░い
フ▙▓ズなんだね！

Gripweed posted:

Holy poo poo Diggersby is a nightmare. Worst Pokemon. Worst anything.

diggersby is a disgusting ossan with a belly warmer band which makes it amazing

i hope the fire rabbit follows the same aesthetic, his base form is like "soccer enthusiast," his T2 form is "soccer professional," and his T3 form is "balding fatass alcoholic ex-pro burnout who goes to soccer games to start fights"

# ? May 13, 2019 20:25

Nasgate: Jun 7, 2011

Farecoal posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_8Wg3vXHfg

This is great. Joey is a champ

# ? May 13, 2019 20:31

Dehry: Aug 21, 2009; Grimey Drawer

https://twitter.com/pokebeach_wpm/status/1128014492623880192

ARMORED MEWTWO

# ? May 13, 2019 20:38

100 degrees Calcium: Jan 23, 2011

That looks totally badass.

# ? May 13, 2019 20:42

Countblanc: Apr 20, 2005; _{Help a hero out!}

What else was on that leak that mentioned armored mewtwo months ago

# ? May 13, 2019 20:44

Dehry: Aug 21, 2009; Grimey Drawer

Countblanc posted:

What else was on that leak that mentioned armored mewtwo months ago

Metal Snake and Wood Horse legendary
Armored Mewtwo, Charizard, Flygon, Zeraora
Meltan is a part of the armored evolution and legendaries

The only post you can trust because the user didn't have a tripcode.

# ? May 13, 2019 20:50

Silver2195: Apr 4, 2012

Interesting to see that they haven't forgotten Ancient Mew. Didn't Shudo admit that the Ancient Mew card was a leftover plot element from an early draft of the second movie that they forgot to take out? The idea of some Pokemon having Ancient Formes that reflect what they looked like before undergoing Darwinian evolution into the forms we know today would be cool, assuming that was the idea (it probably wasn't, since alternate-form stuff didn't really start until Gen IV). Someone on another site has suggested that Voltorb and Electrode were Electric/Grass back when people used Apricorn-based Poke Balls instead of mass-produced ones. Or maybe there's an Ancient Pichu that evolves into the appropriate Pikaclone based on the region.

# ? May 13, 2019 20:50