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Zypher posted:That’s not how television works. Showrunners have final say over everything. Directors are just guests that get some limited input but ultimately have to run it past the showrunners for their final approval. Same with editors. The editors, directors, and actors are making hundreds of decisions that the show runners are not micromanaging. The show runners get final say, but the product is frequently near completion. Listen to the Breaking Band podcasts and you can hear Vince Gilligan ask directors, actors, editors and even writers about why they made certain decisions. D&D might say that a character made a sudden decision, but the the actors, directors and editors have likely taken that goal post and done work to get there as gracefully as possible. Moving away from film/television, many theatrical productions depend on small choices. For example, many Shakespeare productions depend on actors to set up conflicts that would appear abrupt if only looking at the text. ghostwritingduck fucked around with this message at 10:31 on May 15, 2019 |
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May 15, 2019 10:25
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Chalks posted:You need to understand that the entire reason she's been on this campaign of conquest is because King's Landing is her home and her birthright. Her family built the Red Keep. She conquered dozens of cities on her way here, but her focus has been to reclaim her home because she loves it so much. Yes that's what Dany was after this whole time, the literal buildings. Not the kingdom, the throne, her birthright, or anything like that, she just really liked the architecture in KL. No but really if you pay attention her focus was to reclaim the throne (not the literal throne, it's a metaphor) with "fire and blood" and she would "burn cities to the ground" to get it (things she literally said many seasons ago). She wants to rule, turns out it had to be by fear, and yes some buildings got burned but I think she was ok with that in her turning point moment. "Hell it would be fine if it was just a random city that stood in her path" Riiight so it really wasn't her madness you have a problem with it's that she knocked down buildings she apparently cared about. Did you willfully miss the point this badly or are you just dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb
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May 15, 2019 10:26
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So Dany was in fact bummed out that it didn't require as much fire and blood as she had initially thought so she decided to make up for it?
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May 15, 2019 10:31
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I mean for all we know, she might actually explain herself in next episode.
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May 15, 2019 10:37
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Wandle Cax posted:Yes that's what Dany was after this whole time, the literal buildings. Not the kingdom, the throne, her birthright, or anything like that, she just really liked the architecture in KL. No but really if you pay attention her focus was to reclaim the throne (not the literal throne, it's a metaphor) with "fire and blood" and she would "burn cities to the ground" to get it (things she literally said many seasons ago). She wants to rule, turns out it had to be by fear, and yes some buildings got burned but I think she was ok with that in her turning point moment. The thing I have a problem with is that it's without justification and goes against her entire story arc. As the person I was replying to points out, sacking cities isn't necessarily a sign of madness. It can be a strategic (if obviously callous) decision. It would also be fine if there was some provocation that caused her to lose control and lash out in an irrational way. Literally anything would have been fine in that respect. Her hatred for this particular city has absolutely no basis in the story as we watch it. Why does she burn it down after it has already surrendered? It's her prize. It's the reason she bothered to cross the sea in the first place. She literally says she doesn't want to rule over ashes. The writers had a plot point of "Dany goes crazy and kills everyone" - and this is a great plot point. I love it - but there needs to be at least something beforehand leading up to it to justify the action. Even psychologically unstable person has their own internal logic. It wouldn't have been hard to do, it just wasn't done. Much like many of the other recent plot points, it's like they were handed a list of things that needed to happen and they just filmed them. Any characters not mentioned in those plot points are forgotten, no build up to them, just boom boom boom these are the things that need to happen so here they are happening one after another.
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May 15, 2019 10:40
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BigglesSWE posted:I mean for all we know, she might actually explain herself in next episode. It ends with Ned’s detached head speaking wryly into the camera.
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May 15, 2019 10:42
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this episode is infinitely better if you just mute it and put yakkity sax on repeat for 80 minutes.
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May 15, 2019 10:59
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Ivan Shitskin posted:Dany totally isn't a mad queen at all. She didnt snap or go crazy. Shes just thinking of it like rome total war. When you merely occupy a city then the revolt risk will be really high and you get a red frowny face. If you exterminate the city then the revolt risk will be gone and you get a nice green smiley face. When she heard the bells she was like "nuh uh! You dont get off so easy!" There’s actually some interesting parallels between Daenerys’ burning of King’s Landing and Alexander the Great’s burning of Persepolis. Both leaders had shown mercy up until that point and had advisors begging them not to do it.
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May 15, 2019 11:04
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Dany should have just ruled the eastern lands where slavery is normal and there is no zombie army. Instead she just had to take make sure she got control of the frog people.
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May 15, 2019 11:23
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ghostwritingduck posted:There’s actually some interesting parallels between Daenerys’ burning of King’s Landing and Alexander the Great’s burning of Persepolis. Both leaders had shown mercy up until that point and had advisors begging them not to do it. Also with tgem leaving (or in Alexander's case, dying) and their generals taking over their territories for themselves. For Alexander's case, it worked out for a while. The cities in Essos, though, I doubt we'll hear anything about them again.
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May 15, 2019 11:25
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Steve Yun posted:Does Danaerys wear an evil outfit to show she's evil now One of the funniest things to me has been that ever since last season everyone wears black now for no reason whatsoever. It was particularly noticeable when Dany's party first landed at Dragonstone and her, Tyrion, Varys, Grey Worm and Missandei all looked like they were stepping out of the Matrix. The viewing party that I went to sometime this season had a post-episode bit about earlier seasons of the show, and scenes from Season 1, and in a darkened room it was almost blinding how bright the light was and how colourful everyone's clothes were.
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May 15, 2019 11:25
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Also something I don't see many people talking about, but which seemed really clear to me: Dany was not expecting them to surrender. She had already assumed they would fight to the last and had organised her thought, emotions and plans in anticipation of that. She was already gung-ho that she could burn the city down in the wrack of her grief at losing two of her kids, Jorah and Missandei. When the bells rings and the swords get thrown down she's genuinely shocked, and then pissed off that she's been robbed of her cathartic city burning, and then thinks, gently caress it, she'll do it anyway - a thought process which happens in a couple of seconds.
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May 15, 2019 11:28
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freebooter posted:One of the funniest things to me has been that ever since last season everyone wears black now for no reason whatsoever. It was particularly noticeable when Dany's party first landed at Dragonstone and her, Tyrion, Varys, Grey Worm and Missandei all looked like they were stepping out of the Matrix. The viewing party that I went to sometime this season had a post-episode bit about earlier seasons of the show, and scenes from Season 1, and in a darkened room it was almost blinding how bright the light was and how colourful everyone's clothes were. The costumers have some brilliant things to say with the clothes the women wear. When Sansa and Cersei were maintaining the lives of feminine luxury they wore pastels. When their families were at odds they wore bold colors of their families. Now they’re both wearing dresses that look like armor to emphasize their militarism which is cool, but both of them wearing black seems like a misstep because black is such a vague generic “look out I’m badass now” color
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May 15, 2019 11:36
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Steve Yun posted:The costumers have some brilliant things to say with the clothes the women wear. When Sansa and Cersei were maintaining the lives of feminine luxury they wore pastels. When their families were at odds they wore bold colors of their families. Now they’re both wearing dresses that look like armor to emphasize their militarism which is cool, but both of them wearing black seems like a misstep because black is such a vague generic “look out I’m badass now” color Stuff like the overall color scheme of the outfit is decided by the "head creative people", as in the assholes who come up with all these horrifically awful "creative" solutions to story problems and visual conundrums and think they're utterly brilliant when they hire extremely talented craftsmen and say "dress Cersei in something SCARY and BLACK!" and they come up with that fantastic outfit, D&D get to pat themselves on the back for being brilliant and whatever hugely talented creative force that actually MADE the dress is relegated to a tiny credit that nobody outside of the industry will ever pay much attention to 
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May 15, 2019 11:49
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I just read the wiki entry for DnD's Confederate series and hoo boy are they going to gently caress this up spectacularly. Talk about some tone deaf fuckers. And this is who Disney is going to hand the keys to the Star Wars franchise over to. 
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May 15, 2019 11:56
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJkg-p2K3eI "I've never known bells to mean surrender."
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May 15, 2019 11:59
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Vegetable posted:The next episode will be a mockumentary with talking heads. The only way they could redeem the ending at this point is to have it fade to black after the resolution of the aftermath followed by still frames of all the survivors and locations with Ron Perlman narrating an epilogue
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May 15, 2019 12:03
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Dany going mad with power has been on the cards from the end of book 1 and was telegraphed rather heavily in book 5. The series did a bad loving job of documenting the descent though. In an ideal world Dany would have suffered a series of military mis-steps due to trying to save people and preserve life and then, when finally when backed into a corner with seemingly no way out, would explode in a fiery Targarean madness of blood and fire, unleashing the full force of the dragons without a care for anything but victory. Not only would that have been badass, you'd have the audience almost willing her on. As it was it was just the script plonking the heel turn in the right place with no proper set-up or explanation or good reason and it really sucked and wasted all the character development that been building to a potentially magnificent moment of truly giving in to ultimate power. Randomly burning a bunch of peasants and townsfolk is not that...
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May 15, 2019 12:18
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Pedro De Heredia posted:... do people think that's a plothole/inconsistency from the writers, and not intentional dramatic irony? "Dramatic irony" sounds like something from an eighth-grade book report.
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May 15, 2019 12:20
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May 15, 2019 12:21
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freebooter posted:Also something I don't see many people talking about, but which seemed really clear to me: Dany was not expecting them to surrender. She had already assumed they would fight to the last and had organised her thought, emotions and plans in anticipation of that. She was already gung-ho that she could burn the city down in the wrack of her grief at losing two of her kids, Jorah and Missandei. When the bells rings and the swords get thrown down she's genuinely shocked, and then pissed off that she's been robbed of her cathartic city burning, and then thinks, gently caress it, she'll do it anyway - a thought process which happens in a couple of seconds. This is sort of along the lines that I interpreted the whole debacle as well. Shoddy and rushed writing aside... She's pissed, and out for blood. She's already "somewhat" unstable due to recent events, and wants to take out her anger and frustration against her enemies. And then the bells start ringing, and she's being deprived of her vengeance. Not due to her own action, in her mind, but due to the machinations of people she no longer feels that she trust. She went in to "unleash the fuckin' fury" on the city, and then the bells ring signaling the surrender. The city has basically stolen her (in her mind) righteous retribution, and she's having none of it. The city defies her wish for fiery destruction, and we all know what happens if you defy "the Queen". King Landing itself is now the enemy, and thus everyone in it. That's my take on the matter anyway.
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May 15, 2019 12:21
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kaworu posted:Stuff like the overall color scheme of the outfit is decided by the "head creative people", as in the assholes who come up with all these horrifically awful "creative" solutions to story problems and visual conundrums and think they're utterly brilliant when they hire extremely talented craftsmen and say "dress Cersei in something SCARY and BLACK!" and they come up with that fantastic outfit, D&D get to pat themselves on the back for being brilliant and whatever hugely talented creative force that actually MADE the dress is relegated to a tiny credit that nobody outside of the industry will ever pay much attention to I care! I have friends in the costume guild and I tag along to their events, and got to listen to the costume designer for GOT a few years ago where she talked about having zip for a budget in the first season so she used ikea rugs for all the Stark family fur capes 
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May 15, 2019 12:22
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King's Landing was a false flag by the 3 eyed raven! Dragonfire can't melt stone walls!
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May 15, 2019 12:35
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Alec Eiffel posted:Probably. The book, City of Thieves, by David Benioff is actually pretty good though. Every time I read this I get all excited that someone is making a City of Thieves movie based on the book by Ian Livingston set in Port Blacksand. And then I am disappointed.
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May 15, 2019 12:52
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Chalks posted:She literally says she doesn't want to rule over ashes. Those words were always empty. The rightful heir stuff went right out the window as soon as it was inconvenient, and so would any other ideals standing in her way. Pretend the last episode never happened, because we can all agree it was handled stupidly, we do a hard reset. Can you think of any circumstance at all in which she'd choose not ruling to ruling over ashes if given the choice? Not the Dany I've been watching.
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May 15, 2019 13:06
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Would be funny if the guys in charge of Star Wars were huge, pissed off GoT nerds and would just tell D&D to gently caress off now: "Hell naw. Get lost, you hacks!"
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May 15, 2019 13:08
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Hey, can I talk for a moment about how much I dislike Jon Snow's treatment this season? I feel like it doesn't get talked about enough because he's not as good a character as Tyrion or Dany and their characters being sold out feels more frustrating. But I feel like they've turned Jon from an honorable man who tries to do the right thing into an honor robot going BEEP BOOP PLEDGED MYSELF TO THE QUEEN BOOP BEEP BOP. When Jon killed Mance, he was stepping out of line and doing what he knew was right despite the fact that he had no authority to do so. When he left the Night's Watch while he had the convenient reasoning that he had technically died and his watch had already ended, the subtext is that Jon is also fed up with the bullshit that his tenure on the Wall had been and needed to dispatch Ramsay. I buy Jon not being willing to actively deceive Cersei, but this rigidity that they're painting him as of now goes against all the character development the character has gone through over the years. The whole story of Jon on the Wall is the story of him learning about shades of gray, the importance of seeing your enemy as people. He doesn't lie, deceive and sneak, but that doesn't mean he isn't willing to compromise or choose what's actually right over his sense of duty. And if you're going to chalk it up to a love story because the love story isn't strong enough especially in a show where Jon was already in a better doomed relationship. And I like where it ends up, the scenes of the honorable Jon Snow realizing that regardless of Cersei's monstrous misdeeds, he's on the side of the bad guys this time, and the only way out of it is dying. But how they got there just really didn't work.
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May 15, 2019 13:09
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Comstar posted:Every time I read this I get all excited that someone is making a City of Thieves movie based on the book by Ian Livingston set in Port Blacksand. And then I am disappointed. I was thinking the same thing.
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May 15, 2019 13:10
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tooterfish posted:Words are wind. That’s part of the problem though. They could have done literally anything to trigger Dany’s murder rampage. But they chose instead to let her sit there for a hard second making an anguished face to signify her switch being flipped. I really have enjoyed Emilia’s acting this episode though. She works so much better whenever she’s not just smugging at everyone.
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May 15, 2019 13:15
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Let's not forget Sam literally told Jon "she burned my family and you're supposed to be king, do you think she'd step aside for what's right?" She won't. Because she's a bad guy. And always has been. If keeping the slaves had given her the army she needed she would have done it.
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May 15, 2019 13:16
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eviltastic posted:There's also the perpetuation of the PoC-free medieval Europe idea, which is a parallel but separate problem.
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May 15, 2019 13:27
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U-DO Burger posted:imo people itt are taking for granted that the bells meant the battle was 100% over with zero chance of trickery Both sides both sides. Those orphans could have grown up and murdered that dragon.
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May 15, 2019 13:29
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tooterfish posted:Words are wind. Yeah, but that wasn't the choice. She'd won the fight easily in less than a day. She knew the bells meant they would surrender - she even waited for the bells. The bells rang, the city was hers. Her home that she was fighting for all this time had bent the knee. Then she burnt it down. I happy for her to raze the city given even the slightest provocation. The slightest reason. Some kid fires a crossbow at her then runs off into a crowd of civilians. Maybe she sees Jamie with Cersei and realises she's been betrayed again. Maybe she doesn't wait long enough for the bells and starts attacking thinking they will never ring. Maybe the Lannister army starts using human shields and she won't let that stand in the way of her victory. I'm open to any excuse, anything at all. Her going mad and burning the city to the ground was cool, it was an interesting plot development. I'm all for it. They had some interesting plot points but they just didn't do the vital part of blending those points into their characters with believeable motivations They had a plot point of "Dany goes mad and burns the city" and said OK now go mad and burn the city *ticks the box*. There was a plot point of "Euron gets killed in a fight with Jamie" and they just said OK now fight Jamie and get killed *tick*. Jamie and Cersei get killed during the dragon attack *spat* *tick*. What's next? "Arya rides out on a horse", ok here's a horse.... Chalks fucked around with this message at 13:33 on May 15, 2019 |
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May 15, 2019 13:31
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Game of Thrones should end like Monty Python's Holy Grail ended.
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May 15, 2019 13:33
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Chalks posted:Yeah, but that wasn't the choice. I'm not talking about the choice presented in episode 5, I'm talking about the choice presented in her words "I don't want to be queen of ashes". Your entire reasoning for why she shouldn't have turned fire hitler is bullshit, because you're taking her past words at face value and ignoring her past actions. Almost everything she's done has been self serving, the good and the bad. Because good and bad have never mattered to her, it's the throne that matters. Even the notion that she shouldn't be queen of ashes was self serving, because Tyrion convinced her the best approach to gather allies was a tempered one. tooterfish fucked around with this message at 13:44 on May 15, 2019 |
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May 15, 2019 13:39
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I was walking through the city streets/ And some men walk up to me and wish to surrender/ "Stop, don't, we yield!"/ Maaaan, I'm not gonna let you poison me I burned them to the ground
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May 15, 2019 13:45
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Dazerbeams posted:That’s part of the problem though. They could have done literally anything to trigger Dany’s murder rampage. But they chose instead to let her sit there for a hard second making an anguished face to signify her switch being flipped. The weird almost snarl like kiss she gave Jon was wonderfully unhinged. I'd have paid good money for a whole season of that.
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May 15, 2019 13:54
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Vegetable posted:The next episode will be a mockumentary with talking heads. Did Ned's bones ever get returned to Winterfell? He'd have been one of the Crypt Zombies if so. Lyanna was one for sure.
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May 15, 2019 14:08
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Yass, Queen! Melt the civilians! Slay queen!
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May 15, 2019 14:12
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Darkrenown posted:Did Ned's bones ever get returned to Winterfell? He'd have been one of the Crypt Zombies if so. Lyanna was one for sure. I think he was returned to Cat by Littlefinger at some point in Season 2 maybe? I wanna say this was when she was still at Renly's camp.
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May 15, 2019 14:13
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