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Autism Sneaks posted:techno-utopian bullshit nope, sorry dumbass
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May 16, 2019 22:07
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Serf posted:right, but that doesn't seem like you're getting rid of stuff so much as you're changing it. like, we stop eating cows and start eating bugs and vat-grown chicken meat, okay. what's the big deal? we don't need to starve anyone to do that Congratulations you just made an argument for degrowth
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May 16, 2019 22:07
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:You're both imagining some sort of perfectly transformative techno-utopian TED talk that may or may not actually be realized. In any case, "degrowth" only proposes reducing the absolute "size" of human civilization in terms of its material dimensions, by transforming the values of society itself. Like, you could go back to Serf's post about McMansions being something sold to the public instead of being a form of housing that people actually want. A socialist society could easily offer high-density and energy efficient housing as the "normal" alternative to unrealistic suburban sprawl that just keeps going on forever. It costs way more in material terms to service suburban neighborhoods with roads, sewers, water, and electricity than apartments. you're just describing basic socialist policy so why does it have a special name if it's not a cover term for the eco fascists
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May 16, 2019 22:07
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Dreddout posted:Congratulations you just made an argument for degrowth you keep doing this bit as though degrowth were a: the only way to refer to this kind of basic plannign and b: not invented wholecloth in the past couple years by dipshits who nut to images of weeds peeking up through sidewalks
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May 16, 2019 22:09
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*sees all the advances made by soviet science* wow what utopian bullshit get this crap outa here
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May 16, 2019 22:10
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:You're both imagining some sort of perfectly transformative techno-utopian TED talk that may or may not actually be realized. In any case, "degrowth" only proposes reducing the absolute "size" of human civilization in terms of its material dimensions, by transforming the values of society itself. Like, you could go back to Serf's post about McMansions being something sold to the public instead of being a form of housing that people actually want. A socialist society could easily offer high-density and energy efficient housing as the "normal" alternative to unrealistic suburban sprawl that just keeps going on forever. It costs way more in material terms to service suburban neighborhoods with roads, sewers, water, and electricity than apartments. so basically you're saying that we need to concentrate the population into smaller, more easily serviceable areas. i agree Dreddout posted:Congratulations you just made an argument for degrowth when does the population culling kick in?
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May 16, 2019 22:10
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calling rational economics that improves everyones lives "degrowth" is very r-worded
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May 16, 2019 22:10
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DONT THREAD ON ME posted:Im a degrower, not a shower speaking of showers you could use one woah
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May 16, 2019 22:12
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THS posted:nope, sorry dumbass whatever makes you feel better Elon Musk
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May 16, 2019 22:12
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Larry Parrish posted:you're just describing basic socialist policy so why does it have a special name if it's not a cover term for the eco fascists i dunno dude, why don't you read the wikipedia page on degrowth? it's still better than basing all your assumptions on anecdotes like you seem to be doing itt. any planetary socialist society has to anticipate that at some point it has to "degrow" in absolute economic terms to manage its relationship with the ecology. being dogmatically anti-degrowth under any circumstances isn't realistic.
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May 16, 2019 22:13
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Serf posted:so basically you're saying that we need to concentrate the population into smaller, more easily serviceable areas. i agree oh based on current trends it shouldn’t take very long before famine, war and disease kickstart the culling
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May 16, 2019 22:13
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:i dunno dude, why don't you read the wikipedia page on degrowth? it's still better than basing all your assumptions on anecdotes like you seem to be doing itt. wouldn't you then just start growing into space?
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May 16, 2019 22:14
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Maybe it's easier to imagine "degrowth" as planned-recession.Serf posted:wouldn't you then just start growing into space? We can't even grow beyond near-earth orbit. Why are people ITT imagining ourselves as a stellar civilization?
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May 16, 2019 22:14
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Larry Parrish posted:you're just describing basic socialist policy so why does it have a special name if it's not a cover term for the eco fascists fascists! Fascists!! FASCISTS!!!
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May 16, 2019 22:15
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Autism Sneaks posted:whatever makes you feel better Elon Musk you accidentally make a great point here that people really like space and wouldn't you know that was one of the great achievements of socialist scientists, and that elon the paypal dipshit is filling a void left by capitalisms abandonment of the idea of humanity advancing into the stars Pener Kropoopkin posted:Maybe it's easier to imagine "degrowth" as planned-recession. If we dumped as much money into NASA as we did the military we'd have people living in venus' atmosphere rn lol
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May 16, 2019 22:16
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Ecosocialism requires using democratic planning to provide everyone with things like food, housing, and healthcare that are artificially scarce under capitalism. Degrowth (ecofascism) is Flowers For Algeria posted:google pol pot Ecosocialism and degrowth may have certain methods or actions in common but the goals are completely opposite.
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May 16, 2019 22:17
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Autism Sneaks posted:whatever makes you feel better Elon Musk just because idiot libertarians glommed onto "freaking science owns!!", that doesn't give socialists an excuse to be luddite dipshits
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May 16, 2019 22:18
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lol yeah the perfect response must be to let pendulum swing the other way and completely abandon material dialectics, socialistically of coursePener Kropoopkin posted:Maybe it's easier to imagine "degrowth" as planned-recession. The Stellaris start date is only 180 years from now! Zefram Cochrane invents warp drive in 44 years!!
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May 16, 2019 22:18
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THS posted:just because idiot libertarians glommed onto "freaking science owns!!", that doesn't give socialists an excuse to be luddite dipshits the luddites were right, though
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May 16, 2019 22:18
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Maybe it's easier to imagine "degrowth" as planned-recession. the timescale involved would seem to indicate that we're referring to like, centuries in the future like it seems to me that the "degrowth" y'all are talking about is just growing alternatives to modern dirty industries something like Cradle in LANCER 
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May 16, 2019 22:19
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Impermanent posted:you keep doing this bit as though degrowth were a: the only way to refer to this kind of basic plannign and b: not invented wholecloth in the past couple years by dipshits who nut to images of weeds peeking up through sidewalks You don't even understand the basic meaning of the term so why should I argue with you? Serf posted:when does the population culling kick in?
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May 16, 2019 22:20
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christ imagine the horror of a world that goes through degrowth: far fewer hours worked equitably shared resources far less pollution, cars, planes, endless consumption an end to the blight that is advertising everywhere reliance on community and social venues for activities and entertainment a semblance of nature left
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May 16, 2019 22:20
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basically every physicist i know hates capitalism because the vast majority of useful/groundbreaking science isn't profitable, or at least you can't convince people to invest in it without a guarantee of return. if you don't think we could rapidly advance our technology in basically every area by removing the idea of needing profit you are a dumbass
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May 16, 2019 22:21
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Microcline posted:Ecosocialism requires using democratic planning to provide everyone with things like food, housing, and healthcare that are artificially scarce under capitalism. They like to throw the word degrowth around a lot
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May 16, 2019 22:21
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Peanut President posted:the luddites were right, though the luddites were against machines taking their jobs, they weren't against growth or the concept of labor saving devices
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May 16, 2019 22:21
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Autism Sneaks posted:The Stellaris start date is only 180 years from now! Zefram Cochrane invents warp drive in 44 years!! lmao Venom Snake posted:If we dumped as much money into NASA as we did the military we'd have people living in venus' atmosphere rn lol No we wouldn't. That's not how technological advancements work. You can't just throw an infinite amount of money at research and get an infinite amount of advancements. There are diminishing returns, because there are real material limits to what we're capable of. Moreover, why would anyone want to live on Venus? It'd be safer and more productive to exploit terrestrial bodies with drones and probes. That's even assuming you can develop the technology to do it within the timespan that our civilization may cause eco-collapse. And even if you did, you might still have ecological collapse anyway during the intervals it takes to actually transport all those resources back to Earth.
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May 16, 2019 22:22
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Venom Snake posted:basically every physicist i know hates capitalism because the vast majority of useful/groundbreaking science isn't profitable, or at least you can't convince people to invest in it without a guarantee of return. if you don't think we could rapidly advance our technology in basically every area by removing the idea of needing profit you are a dumbass
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May 16, 2019 22:23
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Dreddout posted:Oh gently caress off serf, you're smart enough to know that argument is not in good faith bold of you to assume i'm smart maybe it was worded facetiously but i don't think anyone here is actually advocating for genocide in the name of salvaging the climate
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May 16, 2019 22:24
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Dreddout posted:It's pretty dang anti-materialist too assume we'll just innovates are way out of this current catastrophe we're gonna disrupt the cow farting industry
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May 16, 2019 22:25
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Microcline posted:Ecosocialism requires using democratic planning to provide everyone with things like food, housing, and healthcare that are artificially scarce under capitalism. capitalism produces tons and tons of superfluous poo poo (that is also made artificially scarce through the same processes but that’s not really relevant) and that is what’s supposed to be degrown!!
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May 16, 2019 22:26
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Moreover, why would anyone want to live on Venus? boiling hell planet with a body-crushing atmosphere where it rains acid? why would you not want to sign up?
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May 16, 2019 22:26
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I'm gonna be the Stalin of degrowth so everybody has to accept my definition instead of whatever Larry Parish thinks it means.
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May 16, 2019 22:27
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The SpongeBob not my wallet meme but it's manray explaining degrowth to leftists
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May 16, 2019 22:27
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Venom Snake posted:basically every physicist i know hates capitalism because the vast majority of useful/groundbreaking science isn't profitable, or at least you can't convince people to invest in it without a guarantee of return. if you don't think we could rapidly advance our technology in basically every area by removing the idea of needing profit you are a dumbass as a socialist, I also believe that capitalism is blinding the third eye of our intelligentsia, and as soon as the temples to Mammon are torn down the veil between humanity and the noosphere, the Akashic repository of all knowledge, will lift and we'll be enjoying full luxury space communism before you can say "singularity"
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May 16, 2019 22:27
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in funny events today i saw someone who is scared shitless of a command economy but loves market and libertarian socialism
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May 16, 2019 22:28
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no one thinks we will innovate ourselves out of catastrophe, that's the internet libertarian view. only political power in the hands of communists will do that
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May 16, 2019 22:29
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Autism Sneaks posted:as a socialist, I also believe that capitalism is blinding the third eye of our intelligentsia, and as soon as the temples to Mammon are torn down the veil between humanity and the noosphere, the Akashic repository of all knowledge, will lift and we'll be enjoying full luxury space communism before you can say "singularity" Why even be a leftist when the singulairty is right around the corner The best use of your time is giving money to yudkowsky to power the lesswrong forums
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May 16, 2019 22:29
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im very much not a utopian but I think you'd have to be a moron to believe the capitalists when they say we've hit diminishing returns on x or y technology. everything we take for granted today as a technology of the future was publicly funded lol. the capitalist has invented nothing in the last 100 years, if not longer.
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May 16, 2019 22:30
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Serf posted:in funny events today i saw someone who is scared shitless of a command economy but loves market and libertarian socialism That's because libsocs are dipshits who think the economy is magic, not unlike liberals
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May 16, 2019 22:30
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THS posted:the luddites were against machines taking their jobs, they weren't against growth or the concept of labor saving devices then don't take their name in vain 
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May 16, 2019 22:32
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