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I was browing some wargames in a local game shop today and two covers caught my eyes, for all the wrong reasons:  
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May 17, 2019 23:30
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richyp posted:A few weeks ago there was a thread in here that might have been useful, it dealt with Fascists in Trad Gaming or something? It was pretty good and had a list of bad people and what to look out for and other relevant useful stuff. I meant some of the modern philosophers and sociological and political things you guys referenced when we got off topic. I know how to look at the guy who is gently fondling his german tanks, all hanging a swaztika flag on their barrels, as a crazy person to call out. On topic: looked at compass games website and Im pretty sure you're onto something masam fucked around with this message at 23:42 on May 17, 2019 |
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May 17, 2019 23:38
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New directions in gaming indeed.
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May 17, 2019 23:40
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Zodiac5000 posted:I know people who work at FFG, I play in their corporate game center in Minnesota, it's basically my FLGS. If Jakodee's is correct and we can identify a pattern of this kind of thing, I would/will stop going there and stop purchasing their products and using their space, because that's what you should do when people use money you give them to write justifications or defenses for fascism. I have an actual interest in real evidence for these claims. You should stop using their space anyway, since there much better shops in the cities. FFG is convenient, but it doesn't have much of a sense of community as a whole (granted, that's hard when FFG is practically the size of a Cub). But just because some authors they employed may have taken odd stances with Dark Heresy, it's not like White Wolf, Wizards, and every other company havent. FFG isn't unique here, and the company is blameless. Zodiac5000 posted:Re: blood and soil, yeah, they're watchwords, the slogan isn't actually relevant to the 40k speech as given, is it? Blood in "blood and soil" is not referencing constant death, it is referencing a purity of heritage/ancestry, right? The Great Crusade has similarities, but isn't really allegorical. masam posted:So im going to be a bit off topic but do you all have good sources a person like myself to start reading and learning to pick apart and understand this stuff at a higher level? Ive always followed along on these kind of discussions but have a desire to learn more about this and other topics so i can go out and well, call out the lovely people ive seen and heard in my life time in an effective manner, or preferably for those who are just ignorant rather than malicious, give them an avenue back from the incredibly hosed up beliefs of facism. But read Anti-Semite and the Jew. Don't debate these chuds or turn it into an intellectual debate they won't have authentically anyway. You don't need to know the subtleties to call out dicks who rant about how SJWs are ruining MtG. Just actually call them out on making other people in the store uncomfortable by spewing political garbage, and try to get the store owner to give them the boot. This thread is hopefully for identifying more subtle facists who are public figures because people don't know how trashy they are
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May 17, 2019 23:45
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Lebensraum would work pretty well as a title for a game focused on the Eastern Front in a vacuum, I think? When you also develop a game called triumph of the will and... oofda. It starts looking real bad real fast the more you look at the rest of the catalog. edit - evol262 posted:You should stop using their space anyway, since there much better shops in the cities. FFG is convenient, but it doesn't have much of a sense of community as a whole (granted, that's hard when FFG is practically the size of a Cub). I can get tap beer, hot wings, and they always have terrain and table space! The Source is alright and Tower is too far away, but a full kitchen does a lot of work to get me in the door. evol262 posted:But just because some authors they employed may have taken odd stances with Dark Heresy, it's not like White Wolf, Wizards, and every other company havent. FFG isn't unique here, and the company is blameless. Of course FFG is blameless, they didn't release fascist apologia book in Dark Heresy. The authors also didn't write fascist apologia, and are similarly blameless. Words have meaning, and making a specific, directed statement about FFG and the authors of Dark Heresy is something that I would think the thread would have interest in? or am I the only one who thinks Tucker Carlson-style 'Not claiming anything, just asking questions *wink*" poo poo should be taken out back and shot when you have actual problems to deal with? Zodiac5000 fucked around with this message at 00:02 on May 18, 2019 |
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May 17, 2019 23:47
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Yeah i thought “maybe they're just idiots”. Then i went to the site and saw odes to imperialism and other stuff as the list went down and just kinda noped out. Edit: thank evol 262. Ill check those out and I assume the ones following r/askhistorians are also subreddits? masam fucked around with this message at 23:53 on May 17, 2019 |
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May 17, 2019 23:51
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Zodiac5000 posted:Lebensraum would work pretty well as a title for a game focused on the Eastern Front in a vacuum, I think? When you also develop a game called triumph of the will and... oofda. It starts looking real bad real fast the more you look at the rest of the catalog Triumph of the Will is also about an 1948 war between Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan which is just 
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May 17, 2019 23:55
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masam posted:So im going to be a bit off topic but do you all have good sources a person like myself to start reading and learning to pick apart and understand this stuff at a higher level? Ive always followed along on these kind of discussions but have a desire to learn more about this and other topics so i can go out and well, call out the lovely people ive seen and heard in my life time in an effective manner, or preferably for those who are just ignorant rather than malicious, give them an avenue back from the incredibly hosed up beliefs of facism. This is a pretty good if slightly dated book about the American White Power scene that explains the draw and some of the rhetoric. The ethnographer who did it is Jewish, which from my pov is impressive as hell.
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May 18, 2019 00:15
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Zodiac5000 posted:
Because essentially saying "bring me proof, but not from there", when "there" is a pretty relevant is not really arguing in good face? Or, more to the point, if it's necessary to delve deep into the lore of the setting to prove that the first thing you'll read when engaging with the setting is partial and shouldn't be taken at face value, then maybe we can agree that said presentation sucks. That, of course, is in the eventuality in which the writing isn't cargo culting a 30 year old setting, without the satire. E: you know what? It's not to me to prove that. I shown that it's easy to find material that takes 40k's setting at face value, right on their shop. So show some material that show that the setting is a satire. Iceclaw fucked around with this message at 00:39 on May 18, 2019 |
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May 18, 2019 00:20
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Tekopo posted:The rest of the catalogue is pretty standard to other board wargames naming conventions, but those two titles really stand out as being especially bad (and yeah, I guess the colonialism one as well). The only game I own is Crusade and Revolution which is an alright take on the Spanish Civil War. Anyway here is a good Sartre quote which will probably be familiar to everyone, from "the Anti-Semite and the Jew": quote:The anti‐Semite has chosen hate because hate is a faith; at the outset he has chosen to devaluate words and reasons. How entirely at ease he feels as a result. How futile and frivolous discussions about the rights of the Jew appear to him. He has placed himself on other ground from the beginning. If out of courtesy he consents for a moment to defend his point of view, he lends himself but does not give himself. He tries simply to project his intuitive certainty onto the plane of discourse. I mentioned awhile back some remarks by anti‐Semites, all of them absurd: "I hate Jews because they make servants insubordinate, because a Jewish furrier robbed me, etc."
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May 18, 2019 00:22
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For those of you keeping score at home, the thin black strip with silver embroidery saying "LEBENSRAUM" is clearly meant to evoke an Ärmelstreifen ("cuff title"). They were either in printed or cursive script. Guess who else wore those? 
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May 18, 2019 00:43
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Holy poo poo people will defend literal actual fascist regimes with less fury and venom than people who spend too much money on plastic toys will defend those toy’s backstories. Even a thread literally started with the op talking about how they hate all the Nazis in Warhammer will inevitably get 2-5 people with 40k character avatars writing 30,000 word posts demanding several notebooks of cross referenced evidence for fascist ideology existing in 40k. I’ve been accused of hating 40k, not understanding it, being unfamiliar with it, think GW is run by fascists, thinking FFG is run fascists, etc. I’m starting to think people react to thoughts that make them uncomfortable or cause cognitive dissonance by burying the speaker of it in a thousand accusations, demands for conclusive evidence, and misdirections in order to make it go away. Also: I’ve found The Guy. THE GUY. I mean he’s pretty obvious, but he’s THE GUY. https://gamingwhileconservative.wordpress.com/
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May 18, 2019 00:59
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putting the Me 163 on the cover is actually pretty apt, as it was a rocket interceptor that killed more german pilots as allied pilots. it wasn't a kamikaze like the later rocket planes, but it was designed with a flagrant disregard for pilot safety:quote:As the cockpit was unpressurized, the operational ceiling was limited by what the pilot could endure for several minutes while breathing oxygen from a mask, without losing consciousness. Pilots underwent altitude chamber training to harden them against the rigors of operating in the thin air of the stratosphere without a pressure suit. Special low fiber diets were prepared for pilots, as gas in the gastrointestinal tract would expand rapidly during ascent. in addition, every drop of rocket fuel was distilled from potatoes, so it was operating on food stolen from the lower classes and occupied nations during the famine years of 1944-45. a pretty apt metaphor for the nazi "triumph of the will."
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May 18, 2019 01:00
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jakodee posted:
You don't get to claim you've made a point or won a discussion by virtue of the fact people disagree with you or think you're an idiot. That's not how it works, you massive spanner. Really, at this point opening the thread and seeing your posts is like opening a bag of crisps and finding it full of urine. Please pull your socks up. No one wants to eat pissy crisps. Lovely Joe Stalin fucked around with this message at 01:27 on May 18, 2019 |
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May 18, 2019 01:21
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jakodee posted:Also: This is the kind of content I come to this thread for. "Have you introduced our Lord and Saviour to your D&D campaign yet?'
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May 18, 2019 01:30
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40k is good. Fascism is bad. I am very smart.
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May 18, 2019 01:30
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I'm lovely. Fascism is not lovely. It is unlovely.
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May 18, 2019 01:31
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I forget who it was but one of the boffins in the 40k thread wrote a really good effort post about the imperium being a 40s USSR style power.
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May 18, 2019 01:37
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Oh, wow, that horrible blog:doinganythingwhileconservativemeansvictimcomplex posted:Easy. Trad D&D, the manly version preferred by high-T kings, had to be destroyed. It was an element of the hard-core, hard-mode, Western Civilizational model of building, challenging, and striving to make a better world. They couldn’t ban it without making it more popular, as the Satanic Panic of the 80s proved. They couldn’t let it wither on the vine, because its primary fan base is autists who compulsively enjoy things FOR-EV-VER! They tried to supplant its popularity by inviting a bunch of fat chicks that love Anne Rice waaaaay more than she deserves into the hobby, but women are fickle and soon moved on from Vampire: The Fattening. They tried to kill D&D with a death by a thousand story-game cuts, and that failed because the people who write storygames are hideous child-touchers who mistake nepotism and cults for talent and fans. The only thing left to do was contact Big Tabletop and spread some of that sweet lucre around to ensure that the latest edition would inject storygame faffery into the core D&D game itself and slather that soup sandwich with a heaping helping of Everybody Gets a Trophy. As they so often do, they weaponized our own thing against us. about a nominee for a notable award to any SciFi reader posted:Formerly, I was a policy analyst at the Electronic Frontier Foundation, and a lecturer in American Studies at UC Berkeley. I was the recipient of a Knight Science Journalism Fellowship at MIT, and have a Ph.D. in English and American Studies from UC Berkeley. Obviously this person who has a PhD and is associated with great schools is just trying to ruin things for the "high-T kings" of grognard versions of D&D that have naked women in the monster manual A+ actual facist in trad gaming
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May 18, 2019 01:39
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evol262 posted:Oh, wow, that horrible blog: Yeah the more I read the more I can feel my brains oozing out of my ears. quote:Professional grievous monger, victim enabler, and charlatan wordsmith Gail “I Am Become Death, Destroyer of Hobbies” Simone cannot abide the existence of predominantly white-male spaces. The little waves in the surface of your glass of Montain Dew that you see are caused by her lumbering approach. The fat, greasy sausages of her hands are reaching out from under the bed to snatch away all you hold dear. What the actual Christ. Who talks like this? Who thinks that picture is funny or clever? It has to be a mental disorder. Is being a poo poo-spewing wastoid a mental disorder, though?
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May 18, 2019 01:42
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JBP posted:I forget who it was but one of the boffins in the 40k thread wrote a really good effort post about the imperium being a 40s USSR style power. It fits pretty well. A fascist state devoted to the idea of the ends justifying means, riddled with paranoia, and simultaneously surrounded by actual existential threats. The Emperor is a great depiciton of the folly of xenophobia and the idea of the strong man messianic leader. Everything wrong in 40k stems from his behaviour in 30k where his fear of nebulous external threats makes him try to exterminate the other species. If he'd been less of a twat the galaxy wouldn't be turning into jam, humanity would probably be safe in an Eldar sponsored enclave in the webway, and he wouldn't have spent 10,000 years quadra spazzed on a lifeglug. And then the Tyranids would still have eaten everyone. Edit: PinheadSlim posted:What the actual Christ. Who talks like this? Who thinks that picture is funny or clever? It has to be a mental disorder. Is being a poo poo-spewing wastoid a mental disorder, though? I'm pretty sure there is a huge crossover between the far right and untreated mental illness. No offence to the mentally ill. Lovely Joe Stalin fucked around with this message at 01:49 on May 18, 2019 |
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May 18, 2019 01:46
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:And then the Tyranids would still have eaten everyone. They wouldn't have come without the Pharos beacon being lit due to the Ruinstorm blocking the Astronomicon, so this is Big E's fault, too
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May 18, 2019 01:49
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Almost reads like Pundit.
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May 18, 2019 01:49
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Iceclaw posted:E: you know what? It's not to me to prove that. I shown that it's easy to find material that takes 40k's setting at face value, right on their shop. So show some material that show that the setting is a satire. https://warhammer40000.com/setting/ Games workshop's plot webpage. "To dwell within the Imperium of Man is to inhabit a dystopian nightmare."
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May 18, 2019 01:53
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Zodiac5000 posted:https://warhammer40000.com/setting/ I didn't realise they still used all that really old wording, that's cool.
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May 18, 2019 01:55
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Tekopo posted:I was browing some wargames in a local game shop today and two covers caught my eyes, for all the wrong reasons: What the poo poo is that Me-163 doing down there? Are they positing a ground attack version of a rocket plane? indeed
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May 18, 2019 01:59
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Dawgstar posted:Almost reads like Pundit. And similarly painful! Also, amazing stab-in-the-back theory for how STORYGAMERS are talentless hacks undermining D&D from within. e: I am honestly surprised that I have never seen a version of that anti-semitic image of the 'happy merchant' labeled 'storygamers.' Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 02:04 on May 18, 2019 |
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May 18, 2019 02:00
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I think it's just the fash equivalent to a porn mag putting all the tits on the front cover. Phwoar, look at the kruppstahl on those beauties etc.
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May 18, 2019 02:03
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Madurai posted:What the poo poo is that Me-163 doing down there? Are they positing a ground attack version of a rocket plane?
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May 18, 2019 02:03
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Madurai posted:What the poo poo is that Me-163 doing down there? Are they positing a ground attack version of a rocket plane? It's in its natural state, screaming at high speeds and about to crash.
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May 18, 2019 02:03
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Zodiac5000 posted:https://warhammer40000.com/setting/ None of that read like satire though. If anything, it emphatizes the heroicness of the Imperium's defenders against the villainous outside elements. Here's how it's described as a faction: "Over ten thousand years of constant warfare has honed Mankind’s military might, for the galaxy is a hostile place and only by force of arms is the Imperium held together. It is an age of war and only the strong and the ruthless can hope to survive. Out amongst the stars there can be no mercy, no weakness and no respite from the unending war for survival."
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May 18, 2019 02:18
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Iceclaw posted:None of that read like satire though. If anything, it emphatizes the heroicness of the Imperium's defenders against the villainous outside elements. Here's how it's described as a faction: "Over ten thousand years of constant warfare has honed Mankind’s military might, for the galaxy is a hostile place and only by force of arms is the Imperium held together. It is an age of war and only the strong and the ruthless can hope to survive. Out amongst the stars there can be no mercy, no weakness and no respite from the unending war for survival." The outside elements are actually evil like it says on the box though and they're not allegories for foreign irl human nations/ethnicities. Like, I'm a human. I'd want the imperium to win if I lived in it and think space marines were the loving best.
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May 18, 2019 02:20
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JBP posted:The outside elements are actually evil like it says on the box though and they're not allegories for foreign irl human nations/ethnicities. Like, I'm a human. I'd want the imperium to win if I lived in it and think space marines were the loving best.
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May 18, 2019 02:28
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JBP posted:The outside elements are actually evil like it says on the box though and they're not allegories for foreign irl human nations/ethnicities. Like, I'm a human. I'd want the imperium to win if I lived in it and think space marines were the loving best. But if you create a fictional universe in which the only way to survive is being the nazis, you can be faulted for shilling for them. Because that's precisely how the nazis imagine themselves: good people pushed into a corner by evil outsiders, and turning to desperate measures to survive.
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May 18, 2019 02:28
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Iceclaw posted:But if you create a fictional universe in which the only way to survive is being the nazis, you can be faulted for shilling for them. Because that's precisely how the nazis imagine themselves: good people pushed into a corner by evil outsiders, and turning to desperate measures to survive. I don't think there's any mistaking the imperium's hell of their own creation element even with the universe being a dangerous place.
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May 18, 2019 02:35
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Iceclaw posted:None of that read like satire though. If anything, it emphatizes the heroicness of the Imperium's defenders against the villainous outside elements. Here's how it's described as a faction: "Over ten thousand years of constant warfare has honed Mankind’s military might, for the galaxy is a hostile place and only by force of arms is the Imperium held together. It is an age of war and only the strong and the ruthless can hope to survive. Out amongst the stars there can be no mercy, no weakness and no respite from the unending war for survival." Do you even play 40k or read the lore? This is "Join the Navy, see the world" for new players who want to give GW  , and they make all the factions sound like thisThey're not gonna say "The Imperium is maintaining stuff they forgot how to build 10000 years ago like Red Green, and they know they're completely hosed if they stop sacrificing people to the corpse keeping the lighthouse on, so they're slowly losing the war".
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May 18, 2019 02:36
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JBP posted:The outside elements are actually evil like it says on the box though and they're not allegories for foreign irl human nations/ethnicities. Like, I'm a human. I'd want the imperium to win if I lived in it and think space marines were the loving best. I think this is the whole argument, though, that 40K's universe* is isomorphic to the one fascists want us to think we live in. There are outside entities that are not human at all, they're horrible and alien and they want nothing but to horribly eat your brains or subjugate you. Meanwhile, inside society, there's constant cults to totally evil, ludicrous gods who pretend to have high ideals but just want to ruin you - and mutants, who are supposedly human but really not. So there's a brutal military machine, an inquisition, all the fascist state elements that make the Imperium a dystopia... and the fiction often presents them as justified. Horrible, sure, you wouldn't want to live there (and the authors aren't fascist, they don't think they live there) but if you lived there, if these assumptions about the world were true fascism would be the only choice. That's precisely why 40K raises hackles, because it's a thought experiment on the lines of 'what if... the fascists were right.' It's not intended to be that, but various forces like 'we don't want our flagship army to be evil' and 'we want to sell more toys' have made GW's marketing and writing lean more and more towards 'this is horrible but only because the universe at large forces the Imperium to be horrible, all other options are somehow worse.' And GW writes that universe. The universe has no prior existence. The fact that it perfectly reifies fascist assumptions, because of its satirical roots, is a lot like Judge Dredd: If you start playing it straight, you end up with a lot of fascist fans. Judge Dredd is about a world so horrible, so ridiculous, that the hero is the most openly fascist superhero imaginable, a murderous policeman in a society without rights. And any work that presents Dredd seriously, that believes in the universe of Mega-City One, ends up either rewriting the setting or declaring Dredd justified in all that he does, because that is what the setting is for. You're right, any right-thinking person would rather the Imperium win than the Tyranids or the Orks or Chaos! And that means the game is rigged to make fascists look like the good, sensible option. *40K has a bunch of authors and different voices, though, so it's mostly just a jumbled mess of themes and HEAVY METAL imagery, but this particular element is worth keeping in mind. Fiction that reifies fascist assumptions is either making a huge mistake or actually trying to present fascism as an acceptable response to bad circumstances, which is a prime fascist argument for having all the minorities shot. There are 40K products that present the Imperium as just plain bad and wrong and the universe would do fine without them, but that's not how either the marketing copy or the codexes from back when I played presented it. Joe Slowboat fucked around with this message at 02:40 on May 18, 2019 |
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May 18, 2019 02:37
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Iceclaw posted:But if you create a fictional universe in which the only way to survive is being the nazis, you can be faulted for shilling for them. Because that's precisely how the nazis imagine themselves: good people pushed into a corner by evil outsiders, and turning to desperate measures to survive. They're not shilling for them, they're pretty goddamn clearly saying that the imperium is a lovely, broken, disfunctional empire thats in the middle of losing and would be in a much better place if not for a bunch of excess authoritarianism 10k years ago.
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May 18, 2019 02:39
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Thanks for that post it was really good. Honestly I still colour 40k as a second and third edition player would, so I probably have a lot of old headcanon that forms an interpretation of the game setting. I think it skirts a fine line, but I also think fash will make anything their thing if they try hard enough and that a regular player can enjoy it for what it is.
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May 18, 2019 02:39
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Wait, when did Gail Simone murder Old Country Buffet and can we give her an award for it
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May 18, 2019 02:41
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