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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:Businesses also run the severe risk of losing patrons if they gently caress up how they police their community, both in terms of going too hard or too soft. I would think that skewing towards inclusivity of marginalized communities and ostracizing of toxic predatory assholes is long-term good for business. Judging by the conscious steps the major industry players (Wizards of the Coast, post-Kirby GW) have been making towards inclusivity and increasing visual representation I wouldn’t be surprised if market research bears that hunch out.
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May 22, 2019 04:10
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:Businesses also run the severe risk of losing patrons if they gently caress up how they police their community, both in terms of going too hard or too soft. Right. This was a big part of the discussion surrounding the Zak S debacle when it came out that he was physically and sexually abusing his long time girlfriend in addition to his other lovely behavior. Some people were bemoaning the loss of an RPG hobby "luminary" like him and other people, rather wisely, pointed out how many other talented, creative people might be in the hobby right now if Zak's presence hadn't driven them away. By tolerating Zak's poo poo for so long a bunch of people looked at the OSR scene and/or RPGs in general and went "nah, not worth it." Going out of your way to softball shitheads may make you feel like you're being welcoming and tolerant but what you're actually doing is telling other people that they aren't welcome.
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May 22, 2019 04:12
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:I agree on the female IG (then again that whole sprue could use a revamp), but disagree on the Stormcast Eternals. Also always be aware when looking at the blown up models that the actual things are an inch and a quarter tall in real life. They're going to have a little bit outside proportions to still convey the look at scale.
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May 22, 2019 04:18
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Hustlin Floh posted:This sort of thing (the defending of creeps) sounds really hosed up and is sadly endemic to our hobby. Kai Tave posted:Right. This was a big part of the discussion surrounding the Zak S debacle when it came out that he was physically and sexually abusing his long time girlfriend in addition to his other lovely behavior. Some people were bemoaning the loss of an RPG hobby "luminary" like him and other people, rather wisely, pointed out how many other talented, creative people might be in the hobby right now if Zak's presence hadn't driven them away. By tolerating Zak's poo poo for so long a bunch of people looked at the OSR scene and/or RPGs in general and went "nah, not worth it." Going out of your way to softball shitheads may make you feel like you're being welcoming and tolerant but what you're actually doing is telling other people that they aren't welcome. The phenomenon where nerds in power defend sexual predators is really weirdly prevalent. I’m not a sociologist or anything but there seems to be a pattern.
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May 22, 2019 04:22
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tallkidwithglasses posted:I would think that skewing towards inclusivity of marginalized communities and ostracizing of toxic predatory assholes is long-term good for business. Judging by the conscious steps the major industry players (Wizards of the Coast, post-Kirby GW) have been making towards inclusivity and increasing visual representation I wouldn’t be surprised if market research bears that hunch out. To be explicit this is in addition to the many other virtues of inclusivity. tallkidwithglasses posted:The phenomenon where nerds in power defend sexual predators is really weirdly prevalent. I’m not a sociologist or anything but there seems to be a pattern.
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May 22, 2019 04:26
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tallkidwithglasses posted:The phenomenon where nerds in power defend sexual predators is really weirdly prevalent. I’m not a sociologist or anything but there seems to be a pattern. Same thing happens with sportspeople. Same thing happens with business owners and entrepreneurs. Same thing happens with film directors. It's not "nerds", it's "in power" or "wants to be in power" or "wants to be on the side of the powerful". It's (partly) a function of hierarchies. Several of my friends would go on at length about patriarchy at this point but that's kinda far from my area of knowledge so I won't try. e: beaten.
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May 22, 2019 04:27
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:I agree on the female IG (then again that whole sprue could use a revamp), but disagree on the Stormcast Eternals. yea, the sisters are still kinda 'eeeeh' but Stormcast's aesthetic is comic book bullshit body mold armor, everyone's showing off how jacked and cool they are, for Sigmar of course. I think the lady Stormcast look nice, it's a distinct, 'feminine', form that stands out on the table but it stands out because the Stormcast are a distinct 'masculine' form already, so you can easily pick out who's who in a mixed army. There's no real sexualizing of either side (cowards, give me my banana hammock marines), it's just old fashioned cartoon/comic nonsense of 'MY ARMOR IS THICK ENOUGH TO STOP THE MIGHTIEST BLADE...ALSO IT'S BASICALLY PAINTED ON ME, CHECK OUT MY SIX-PACK'. Which is nice, I like dumb bullshit warhams. I am 100% on team 'put female heads in IG sprues and call it a day' though, yea, since that aesthetic is the faceless lasgun horde with no real distinguishing features unless you're 'lucky' enough to carry the big fuckoff weapon or are giving orders.
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May 22, 2019 04:30
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Let's face it, as far as wargame miniatures are concerned it counts as a win if the women aren't actively fondling themselves in battle.
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May 22, 2019 04:43
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As a woman I also don't mind armor that's distinctly feminine. Boobplate is obviously a huge no but at LARPs and such some women want to wear armor but still feel feminine, and that's ok. I understand the water is muddied a bit because many of the designers and audience are male but I dont think "women who look exactly like men in physique" is an ideal solution.
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May 22, 2019 04:46
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Bruceski posted:Let's face it, as far as wargame miniatures are concerned it counts as a win if the women aren't actively fondling themselves in battle. Yet nobody seems to have an issue with my marines that are all cranking their hogs
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May 22, 2019 04:46
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RagnarokAngel posted:As a woman I also don't mind armor that's distinctly feminine. Boobplate is obviously a huge no but at LARPs and such some women want to wear armor but still feel feminine, and that's ok. I think Victoria Lamb's take on the IG is a good perspective for making female models that are obviously feminine without being Franzetta pin-ups, and still keep the GW unit syling aesthetics.
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May 22, 2019 04:59
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Nessus posted:The grim truth is that a lot of people in power have defended and covered for sexual predators for a long time, indeed no doubt to some extent since time immemorial. And it will not go away completely for a long time. But hey, you tend the field you have. Well, yes, but I think the nerd angle is a little unique. It seems like a weird toxic manifestation of downtrodden members of a nominally very privileged group or something- like, I did high school athletics and I’ve seen nerds close ranks around a sexual abuser faster than the meatheads on the football team would have.
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May 22, 2019 05:27
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tallkidwithglasses posted:Well, yes, but I think the nerd angle is a little unique. It seems like a weird toxic manifestation of downtrodden members of a nominally very privileged group or something- like, I did high school athletics and I’ve seen nerds close ranks around a sexual abuser faster than the meatheads on the football team would have. My theory is that it's the combination of standard hierarchical defense of abusers with really low-rent hierarchies defined by a sense of grievance against the rest of society; the Nerd Social Fallacies are a real helpmeet for abusers. Certain nerd circles define social ostracization as the worst thing ever, and in practice treat it as much worse than a whole variety of creepy, misogynistic, abusive behaviors. Therefore, anyone suggesting ostracizing the creeps, especially the creeps who have friends and status, is both going up against the abuser-defending qualities of hierarchies, and against a sense of grievance for suggesting that anyone be kicked out. That grievance is doubled by the sense that some nerds have that they're only able to exist in social groups on sufferance, or where literally nobody is kicked out. Sometimes this is because they are creeps and wannabe abusers! The whole thing's a knot of vipers, and it really made my late college experience... interesting... when I and the other chair of our college Science Fiction Association were at the front lines of getting rid of a creepy, abusive alumnus from the alumni network and from Association events. This ended up basically collapsing the alumni network, effectively killed a con, and dissolved a number of friendships I am now incredibly glad I don't have anymore. None of these were explicitly fascists, though some had weird nerd-reactionary ideas about monarchy and against democracy, but I feel these examples are fascist-adjacent as regards the continuation of fascist membership in nerd groups like TTRPG clubs. After all, the current fascist resurgence has an entire wing in the PUA/MRA internet zone, aka the militant creep brigade.
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May 22, 2019 05:42
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My local group of wargamers has had some problems with white power Pete types and random other bullshitt "jokes". I've tried to call them out on it before but free speech pops up and the conversation shuts down. It has been bad enough that they driven out some of my friends who were interested in getting into the group. Surprisingly the group is pretty open to queer people like myself. They just have no interest in driving out the lovely elements either which has created drama. I would love to give the groups leadership the advice you all just gave. Does anyone have a link with a summary of these points from a site thats not a comedy forum with some solid justification? Maybe they will read it and start policing some of their members a bit better! I know they want to do better but are not informed about anything outside of their little cit het white boy world. Another store i go to for d&d run by a goon does these things and its an amazing experience. Super diverse player base and lots of friendly people.
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May 22, 2019 05:46
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tallkidwithglasses posted:Well, yes, but I think the nerd angle is a little unique. It seems like a weird toxic manifestation of downtrodden members of a nominally very privileged group or something- like, I did high school athletics and I’ve seen nerds close ranks around a sexual abuser faster than the meatheads on the football team would have. There's a number of parts to this, obviously the Geek Social Fallacies to a degree, but an interesting phenomenon about people, men in particular, is a tendancy to ascribe philsophy and action to a thing, rather than what that thing represents. So nerds see the misogyny of say, the stereotypical frat bro sportsball and drinking and behaviour, and think 'Well I'm not like that, so I must not be a misogynist!' while watching fanservice anime and ogling cosplayers and demanding that a woman tell him the length of mario's inseam. That and nerd's inherent 'an attack on [thing I like] is an attack on me!'.
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May 22, 2019 05:54
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I'll be honest, I don't really think there's a lot of merit to be had in trying to determine which particular hobby, industry, or field is more tolerant of sex creeps and predators. It happens everywhere, and it's happened for way longer than RPGs have been a thing. The Geek Social Fallacies are a thing but you don't have to swing a dead cat very far to find evidence of coverups engineered to protect sexual predators and abusers in collegiate and professional sports, the video game industry, Hollywood, academia, science-fiction writers, pick something and odds are in your favor that you'll find this stuff. I say this as someone who's perfectly happy to call out dumb nerd bullshit all the livelong day, this isn't an "oh well the tradgame hobby isn't thaaaat bad" thing, it's an "actually lots of things are exactly this bad" thing.
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May 22, 2019 05:56
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All these groups have humans in them and humans have many flaws, which we could count until the Battle Cattle come home. And yet, it is generally held we can choose to do better. Perfection may never be reached, but we can be like a ratchet, and make all our motion go in one direction - a good one.
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May 22, 2019 06:02
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Nessus posted:All these groups have humans in them and humans have many flaws, which we could count until the Battle Cattle come home. Oh yeah no, 100% in agreement, I just think it's maybe a bit reductive to think "nerds are specifically so much worse about this." In terms of keeping your own hobbies and social spaces clean, toss'em out and tell them to gently caress off forever.
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May 22, 2019 06:06
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e: removed sex abuse stuff, Kai Tave's right and much more succint than I could hope to be. the moose posted:My local group of wargamers has had some problems with white power Pete types and random other bullshitt "jokes". I've tried to call them out on it before but free speech pops up and the conversation shuts down. It has been bad enough that they driven out some of my friends who were interested in getting into the group. Surprisingly the group is pretty open to queer people like myself. They just have no interest in driving out the lovely elements either which has created drama. Does the freeze peach extend to things like "Sieg fail, bonehead bill! Follow your loving leader!"? Same question for things that count as harmless jokes. (e: I'm not advocating you try getting under their skin like this unless you want to start an actual fight, but it's the kind of thing to ask yourself when figuring out if this is worth it.) Anyway, start here with the not-a-comedy-forum take on why that "but but free speech" poo poo doesn't work https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance, but I don't think you're gonna convince anyone. Pointing out that you're not gonna get (list your friends) to come back while those guys are doing their thing might work, but you'll have more success if a bunch of people do it. edit 2: As far as I'm aware, you're not going to find a list of these kinds of points on any website that will be believed by someone who's taking the line that free speech is the most important thing and that actual fascists are entitled to a calm debate in the free market of ideas. Elector_Nerdlingen fucked around with this message at 06:34 on May 22, 2019 |
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May 22, 2019 06:18
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Bruceski posted:That's some nice gear, bit it *is* a Battle Corset. Doesn't invalidate the rest, I just couldn't not point it out. TBF the corset and boob plate read as non-functional decoration similar to the robes they're wearing. It's not perfect but from a modeling perspective it makes sense as a way to differentiate something that's about the size of your thumb from a hundred other things the size of your thumb, and in universe it makes a certain amount of sense that a religious order that explicitly can't include men would add that sort of sense. Personally the important thing is that it feels like it respects the characters and doesn't feel like cheesecake, and the new Sisters (and even AOS Dark Elf Witches) succeed there where some games like Infinity fail imo.
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May 22, 2019 06:34
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To be clear, I don't think nerds are uniquely bad at getting rid of creeps, just that it manifests in particular ways that are informed by nerd culture's particular flaws. Unsurprisingly, just, it's useful diagnostically IMO.
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May 22, 2019 06:43
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Joe Slowboat posted:To be clear, I don't think nerds are uniquely bad at getting rid of creeps, just that it manifests in particular ways that are informed by nerd culture's particular flaws. Unsurprisingly, just, it's useful diagnostically IMO. I think it shows an interesting facet of patriarchy and serves as a kind of compass as to how toxic masculinity functions. I’m not sure I’m good at articulating what I’m thinking about but it’s something along the lines of when you remove the obvious “alpha male” types you see how male power structures form and reflexively perpetuate some nasty stuff.
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May 22, 2019 06:51
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tallkidwithglasses posted:I think it shows an interesting facet of patriarchy and serves as a kind of compass as to how toxic masculinity functions. I’m not sure I’m good at articulating what I’m thinking about but it’s something along the lines of when you remove the obvious “alpha male” types you see how male power structures form and reflexively perpetuate some nasty stuff.  is not practicing that, indeed hates it, he obviously cannot be engaging in a toxic masculinity at all. Meanwhile, while nuances and details differ, there were doubtless plenty of sportsplayers and sexhavers who grew up to be decent people and were even at the time not actually doing anything particularly toxic.
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May 22, 2019 07:02
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Elector_Nerdlingen posted:First kick the out-and-proud bigots* out. Can't start without that. Nazi punks gently caress off. (google "paradox of tolerance") This is some powerful, productive instruction right here. Quoting this so that I have it in my post history to find and copy in the future. One of the LGSs in my area has way too many missing stairs, and that's driven a lot of people that I know away from it. I may start showing up again with friends (and spending money) in tow to start raising a bit of a ruckus to the owners about the environment they're creating.
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May 22, 2019 07:36
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Hedningen posted:For a counterpoint on female miniatures, check out Bad Squiddo Games. The owner, Annie (who is on these forums and is a good, decidedly non-fash person), has found a niche in producing believable female miniatures and has done a ton to help create women-friendly spaces in wargaming. Quoting this for emphasis. Annie is an enthusiastic goon and will happily chat with you on her stall (which is always hugely successful and crowded at shows). There IS a market for non-sexualised female figures, a big one, especially in historicals. It's just that nobody bothered to make them before she came along. Her female orcs and ogres should be mandatory viewing for the hobby. She'll also sell you plastic box sets with strips of female heads sized to fit them (this is how my Frostgrave crews came to include several women, all of whom are heavily bundled up because Frostgrave is supposed to be above the snowline and very cold). So far she seems to have evaded any creepy backlash, too.
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May 22, 2019 07:52
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Loxbourne posted:Quoting this for emphasis. Annie is an enthusiastic goon and will happily chat with you on her stall (which is always hugely successful and crowded at shows). There IS a market for non-sexualised female figures, a big one, especially in historicals. It's just that nobody bothered to make them before she came along. Her female orcs and ogres should be mandatory viewing for the hobby. She'll also sell you plastic box sets with strips of female heads sized to fit them (this is how my Frostgrave crews came to include several women, all of whom are heavily bundled up because Frostgrave is supposed to be above the snowline and very cold). Bad Squiddo is just so good. My Saga army has one of her models as a Huskarl (well, Huskona I guess  ). It's a fantastic model - Realistic proportions, heavily armored, completely non-objectified, all the usual good Bad Squiddo stuff. I was doing a Saga demo at a FLGS, and this guy observes for a while. He noticed my literally one woman (out of a army of 30 or so), and goes on a mini-tirade against those goshdarn SJWs and their historical revisionism and putting women everywhere even in places where it's so unbelievable etc. This dude ended up getting shut down pretty hard by someone else. This was especially galling, considering that there's ample evidence that women warriors were absolutely a thing that happened rarely but consistently in early medieval northern Europe. Since then I've made a point of trying to include at least one obvious woman in my armies - It's cool for obvious reasons, but also serves as just a fantastic lure to get chuds to out themselves. These poor loving guys just see red if one toy soldier among dozens has long hair. e: here is the heroic chud-outer in question, done no favours by my mediocre at best painting, go to https://badsquiddogames.com/ and give Annie money 
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May 22, 2019 09:10
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Geisladisk posted:Bad Squiddo is just so good. Now this is good poo poo. I haven't painted any minis for ages but I'm gonna do a little set of shieldmaidens vs zombie shieldmaidens for a friend's birthday next year.
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May 22, 2019 10:52
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tallkidwithglasses posted:I think it shows an interesting facet of patriarchy and serves as a kind of compass as to how toxic masculinity functions. I’m not sure I’m good at articulating what I’m thinking about but it’s something along the lines of when you remove the obvious “alpha male” types you see how male power structures form and reflexively perpetuate some nasty stuff. This is off topic.
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May 22, 2019 11:43
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Just loving kill me I guess? https://www.facebook.com/groups/bloodbowlcommunity/permalink/2417592128293300/ I can't be hosed posting this entire thing but please enjoy this thread and it's accompanying discussion. Funny how the thread was on the topic of female minis then fb threw this at me.  This is probably why it's good that GW are at least trying to get rid of bullshit female minis and so should other manufacturers. Posted by a normal man. e: also if there's somewhere else I should have put this like painting unspiration idk it seems like it's home should be here tho (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 22, 2019 12:10
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Elector_Nerdlingen has already posted some fantastic advice on making communities safe, and I'd just like to echo my experience that yes, you do need to be willing to actively and constantly moderate your community - and specifically the part where you should be capable of putting your foot down and sanctioning people even in the absence of an explicit rule that says so.
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May 22, 2019 12:50
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Loxbourne posted:Quoting this for emphasis. Annie is an enthusiastic goon and will happily chat with you on her stall (which is always hugely successful and crowded at shows). There IS a market for non-sexualised female figures, a big one, especially in historicals. It's just that nobody bothered to make them before she came along. Her female orcs and ogres should be mandatory viewing for the hobby. She'll also sell you plastic box sets with strips of female heads sized to fit them (this is how my Frostgrave crews came to include several women, all of whom are heavily bundled up because Frostgrave is supposed to be above the snowline and very cold). Not sure of the timeline or which came first, but Oathsworn also has a range of sensibly dressed female adventurers - http://www.oathswornminiatures.co.uk/c/4555399/1/sensible-shoes.html
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May 22, 2019 13:28
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For their Enforcer and GCPS lines, Mantic also mix and match female heads with the same body types, and make a point of painting their display minis with different skin tones: http://www.manticgames.com/mantic-shop/warpath.html
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May 22, 2019 13:41
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gradenko_2000 posted:Elector_Nerdlingen has already posted some fantastic advice on making communities safe, and I'd just like to echo my experience that yes, you do need to be willing to actively and constantly moderate your community - and specifically the part where you should be capable of putting your foot down and sanctioning people even in the absence of an explicit rule that says so. I wonder if there is some overlap here with the idea of games and how they are generally all defined by an explicit set of rules. A lovely person can maybe feel more justified doubling down when there "isn't a rule that says I can't".
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May 22, 2019 14:49
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Hedningen posted:For a counterpoint on female miniatures, check out Bad Squiddo Games. The owner, Annie (who is on these forums and is a good, decidedly non-fash person), has found a niche in producing believable female miniatures and has done a ton to help create women-friendly spaces in wargaming. I have some of her women infantry and tank crew in my 28mm Soviet army. They're good models and an excellent chud-detector. Geisladisk posted:Bad Squiddo is just so good. I really should get some of her viking women for Saga. Let me go over to that site and ... ... Well, there's another $50 gone. Cessna fucked around with this message at 14:59 on May 22, 2019 |
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May 22, 2019 14:51
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General Olloth posted:I wonder if there is some overlap here with the idea of games and how they are generally all defined by an explicit set of rules. Fortunately for everyone, the Air Bud Defense is not actually real, and makes an excellent lovely person detector as well.
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May 22, 2019 14:52
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Kai Tave posted:As someone who spent a year moderating RPGnet, which does have a rather extensive list of rules and guidelines for users, this is 10000% correct. Trying to nail down what constitutes acceptable behavior in a social space with a specific set of itemized rules is begging to have every dickhead in existence try to game them as hard as humanly possible. The end result is you wind up throwing them out anyway (hopefully) but then you have to answer a bunch of other peoples' questions about "why did user gasthejews1488 get banned, they didn't violate rules 1, 3, or 17 that I can see." It is vastly superior, in my opinion, to have a short and simple set of rules first and foremost of which is "don't be a bigoted rear end in a top hat, or even a garden variety rear end in a top hat to the point that you're making GBS threads the place up." I think you're right.
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May 22, 2019 14:53
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Mors Rattus posted:Fortunately for everyone, the Air Bud Defense is not actually real, and makes an excellent lovely person detector as well. Yeah funny how it also lines up with people I wouldn't want to play games with as well, even without the being lovely to fellow humans part.
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May 22, 2019 14:59
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:This is off topic. Conversations in threads flow naturally from topic to topic that can sometimes be tangentially related to the main topic, however this kind of call out when the rest of the thread is talking about it seems petty and unnecessary. Please don't post like this. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 22, 2019 15:01
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General Olloth posted:I wonder if there is some overlap here with the idea of games and how they are generally all defined by an explicit set of rules. I think this is true on both sides of the coin, with lovely people saying "but there's no rule that says I can't do that", and also community organizers hesitating to get rid of people because they can't name a specific rule that's being broken, even when everyone knows they're poo poo and unwanted. I think it may stem from people spending a lot of times in games with well defined rules and struggling to shift into a world more defined by nuance.
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May 22, 2019 15:15
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ijyt posted:Please don't post like this. Sometimes you just need a strong authoritarian figure to control the discourse. That is pretty clearly a good thing very much needed to keep the thread appropriate to what the higher powers want to see.
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May 22, 2019 15:46
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