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Flavius Aetass posted:PTSD former stormtrooper on a mission to save a loved one and the galaxy upon arriving: WOW CRAPS TABLES lmao
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May 24, 2019 21:37
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Maybe light speed ramming is considered a war crime and that's why no one ever does it
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May 24, 2019 21:38
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It's a pretty scene, but a bad way to resolve a plot because it invites a lot of fridge logic that second guesses why and when someone could do that tactically.
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May 24, 2019 21:55
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light speed ramming isn't normally done because ships are expensive and the enemy usually has their shields up and can shoot you down if they aren't distracted by something else complaining about the ramming is cinemasins-level analysis
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May 24, 2019 22:00
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Brother Entropy posted:light speed ramming isn't normally done because ships are expensive and the enemy usually has their shields up and can shoot you down if they aren't distracted by something else The enemy ships' shields were down?
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May 24, 2019 22:03
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Bogus Adventure posted:The enemy ships' shields were down? admittedly it's been awhile since i've seen TLJ but i recall something about the first order flagship not having shields up because as far at they could tell the resistance were full on in escape mode
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May 24, 2019 22:05
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Brother Entropy posted:admittedly it's been awhile since i've seen TLJ but i recall something about the first order flagship not having shields up because as far at they could tell the resistance were full on in escape mode I haven't watched TLJ so I only know the summaries and spoilers, but everything about it sounds like the story is driven by the incompetence of the First Order. Like, Poe being able to fly around and blow a bunch of crap up because the dreadnaught decided it wasn't worth launching TIES. And if Holdo was relying on them to have their shields down for that maneuver, then it just sounds like bad writing. That's just me, though. 
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May 24, 2019 22:10
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I'm fairly confident nothing about the first order's shields is mentioned. Your brain was trying to fill in the holes left by the extremely sloppy script which is understandable
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May 24, 2019 22:15
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so if the shields were up holdos boat would have bounced off them or something?
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May 24, 2019 22:38
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Brother Entropy posted:light speed ramming isn't normally done because ships are expensive and the enemy usually has their shields up and can shoot you down if they aren't distracted by something else Put the engines on a big rock space is full of big rocks it’s a really stupid plot point
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May 24, 2019 22:46
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Bogus Adventure posted:I haven't watched TLJ so I only know the summaries and spoilers, but everything about it sounds like the story is driven by the incompetence of the First Order. Like, Poe being able to fly around and blow a bunch of crap up because the dreadnaught decided it wasn't worth launching TIES. And if Holdo was relying on them to have their shields down for that maneuver, then it just sounds like bad writing. “I haven’t watched this movie but here is my criticism based on the movie’s Wikipedia page” is some real dumbass poo poo
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May 24, 2019 22:58
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I have never experienced this "cinema" thing but I'm pretty sure it's poo poo.
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May 24, 2019 23:01
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No Mods No Masters posted:I'm fairly confident nothing about the first order's shields is mentioned. Your brain was trying to fill in the holes left by the extremely sloppy script which is understandable i will accept that i'm misremembering details of holdo's kamikaze attack but i still think it's a pointless 'tactical realism' style of nitpick especially when there's plenty of bigger problems with TLJ's narrative to focus on instead
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May 24, 2019 23:05
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There's a lot I don't really care for in TLJ, but the lightspeed ramming was cool enough that I didn't think about its ramifications for the universe as a whole in the moment, which is enough that I feel obligated to give it a pass. It's portrayed as something unusual and unexpected; I don't think the movie is asking too much of us to just accept it as such. General Dog fucked around with this message at 23:24 on May 24, 2019 |
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May 24, 2019 23:15
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celewign posted:It's amazing how much of Finn's character was squandered. He could have been a badass stormtrooper commando that switched sides but instead they made him into a janitor. TFA and TLJ even progressively make him dumber and dumber until his character is a total joke. also the extremely traumatic sacrifice he made for rey/getting diagonally sliced all over his back is basically laughed off after a few hours she just ditche d him as well lmao did they even see each otehr in the movie? gently caress
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May 25, 2019 00:05
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literally loving lol at people nitpicking the lightspeed ramming it's Star Wars, where there is sound in space, swords that are made of pure light/plasma beams yet have real weight, and bombers that drop a payload like gravity exists. literally gently caress off with this poo poo, you cucks. My view is that it's very difficult to pull off because you have to hit the object while your ship is accelerating greatly, but it isn't in actual hyperspace yet (because it would just pass through it in hyperspace like in that Cowboy Bebop episode)  edit: as for "why ain't nobody did it before" -- nobody thought of planes being used as giant cruise missiles until it happened. Use your goddamn brains or stop turning this into Star Trek, cause it ain't. Preston Waters fucked around with this message at 00:42 on May 25, 2019 |
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May 25, 2019 00:38
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General Dog posted:There's a lot I don't really care for in TLJ, but the lightspeed ramming was cool enough that I didn't think about its ramifications for the universe as a whole in the moment, which is enough that I feel obligated to give it a pass.
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May 25, 2019 01:18
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Preston Waters posted:
Just quoting this so you can't edit it out. Actually, many people had thought of planes being used as giant missiles. In fact, there was an X-Files episode about someone using that exact tactic against the WTC. I feel safe saying that many, many films have had airliners crash into things.
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May 25, 2019 01:24
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Just quoting this so you can't edit it out. Actually, many people had thought of planes being used as giant missiles. In fact, there was an X-Files episode about someone using that exact tactic against the WTC. I feel safe saying that many, many films have had airliners crash into things. Just quoting this so you can't edit it out. Actually, they were talking about kamikaze pilots during WWII.
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May 25, 2019 01:50
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feedmyleg posted:Just quoting this so you can't edit it out. Actually, they were talking about kamikaze pilots during WWII. Just quoting this so you can't edit it out. Actually, there were dedicated aerial ramming attacks as early as 1914, and had been hypothesized by writers before that.
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May 25, 2019 01:58
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Just quoting this so you can't edit it out. Actually, many people had thought of planes being used as giant missiles. In fact, there was an X-Files episode about someone using that exact tactic against the WTC. I feel safe saying that many, many films have had airliners crash into things. Just quoting this so you can't edit it out. You know what the gently caress I meant: no one was prepared / ready for hijackers to utilize a goddamn passenger aircraft to suicide bomb strategic buildings. That's great that it was on Lone Gunman (Not X-Files, you shameful dunce) -- too bad no one watched that poo poo, even most X-Files fans. I also had the idea of using a star destroyer to crash into the Death Star at light speed when I was in like third grade. That doesn't mean everyone considered it, same for the characters in the SW Universe.
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May 25, 2019 02:01
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This guy is completely missing the point that I was making.
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May 25, 2019 02:02
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Ammanas posted:so if the shields were up holdos boat would have bounced off them or something? I doubt it. Shields dont seem to protect star destroyers or the Falcon from asteroids in Empire.
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May 25, 2019 02:08
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banned from Starbucks posted:I doubt it. Shields dont seem to protect star destroyers or the Falcon from asteroids in Empire. Those aren't going at hyperspeed though.
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May 25, 2019 02:09
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Those aren't going at hyperspeed though. so shields work based on how fast something is crashing into you?
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May 25, 2019 02:13
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banned from Starbucks posted:so shields work based on how fast something is crashing into you? The ones the Gungans use do.
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May 25, 2019 02:34
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Shields work however the goddamn story needs them to work. Just like hyperspace. Just like the distance of planets. Just like gravity. Or the Force. Or literally all of physics. It's a space opera.
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May 25, 2019 02:36
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Preston Waters posted:Just quoting this so you can't edit it out. That isn't what you said. You said no one had thought of it. Words mean things. The fact that people weren't prepared/ready for it is a different issue entirely. That issue has more to do with the failures of communication surrounding the FAA and NORAD on 9/11. For example, they were running drills and simulations about a terrorist highjacking leading to the aircraft being used as a missile something like a full year before the attack happened.
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May 25, 2019 02:36
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:That isn't what you said. You said no one had thought of it. Words mean things. The fact that people weren't prepared/ready for it is a different issue entirely. That issue has more to do with the failures of communication surrounding the FAA and NORAD on 9/11. The public at large, much like those watching TLJ, hadn't considered it. So for everyone saying "WHY DIDN'T THEY DO IT ALL ALONG??!" literally the same: why didn't Al Qaeda or the IRA or literally anyone do it before? It's the same goddamn result to a stupid question. If you still really have to ask the question, just give up on all films because you can nitpick anything to death if you want to be that miserable.
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May 25, 2019 02:40
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Watch this: Why did they attack the Death Star at the wrong place and fly down the trench? Why did they want to do that and get shot up by the giant laser turrets? Why not just fly directly at the giant space station vagina and attack it from above, where it would also have been a much easier shot to make? Why did the Empire land on Hoth with giant elephant walkers? Why not just bomb the poo poo out of them from orbit? Why did Lando even dress up when rescuing Han? Luke was going to go there anyway, right? Why not just send the droids with Luke and have everyone waiting somewhere to attack? Why send the entire Rebel Alliance fleet to attack Death Star II without knowing with absolute certainty that the shields were down? Couldn't they just wait in a system nearby and jump in with a moment's notice? Shouldn't they scout the planet for weeks and approach the native Ewoks directly to coordinate an attack on the shield generators? Why even bother with the bunker? Why not send an X-Wing squadron to Endor and blow the poo poo out of the dish and jump back to tell the entire fleet that the shields are down? A: Because all of that would be boring as poo poo and it's a fuckin' movie, not some grand strategic sim.
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May 25, 2019 02:48
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Preston Waters posted:The public at large, much like those watching TLJ, hadn't considered it. So for everyone saying "WHY DIDN'T THEY DO IT ALL ALONG??!" But you said you considered it as a third-grader, so is everyone in Star Wars dumber than an actual child? Anyway, you might have a point about the IRA and Al-Qaeda if they were in the habit of flying airliners around and always had easy access to them and always were flying them near enemy targets and airliners were common place enough to essentially be cars and both of those groups had droids they could use to hyper-bomb their targets. Unfortunately, even a cursory understanding of history would prove how bizarre that comparison is. Just as it would your claim that why didn't they do it before is a question that just can't be answered. So we've gone from 'no one thought of it before' to 'no one was prepared for it' to 'the general public hadn't considered it' - to where will you shift the goalposts next?
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May 25, 2019 03:07
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Preston Waters posted:Watch this: Because there are more guns on the surface than in the trench. The movie tells you this. quote:Why did the Empire land on Hoth with giant elephant walkers? Why not just bomb the poo poo out of them from orbit? Because the Rebels have a shield. Also, Vader wants to capture Luke. Orbital bombardment may have been on the cards but Admiral Ozzel messed it up. quote:Why did Lando even dress up when rescuing Han? Luke was going to go there anyway, right? Why not just send the droids with Luke and have everyone waiting somewhere to attack? Yes, the beginning of RotJ is a weird clown car plot - but a weird scheme to get characters into the action is different to a magic button to get them out of it. quote:Why send the entire Rebel Alliance fleet to attack Death Star II without knowing with absolute certainty that the shields were down? Couldn't they just wait in a system nearby and jump in with a moment's notice? Shouldn't they scout the planet for weeks and approach the native Ewoks directly to coordinate an attack on the shield generators? Why even bother with the bunker? Why not send an X-Wing squadron to Endor and blow the poo poo out of the dish and jump back to tell the entire fleet that the shields are down? Because it had to be a surprise attack before the Imperial fleet could respond. Doing any of those things would alert the Empire, allowing them to reinforce the DS2 or evacuate the Emperor. This is why they sneak a team onto Endor and co-ordinate so the fleet will arrive as the shield goes down - but things go wrong. Please don't do the CD thing of feigning blindness and deafness to win arguments.
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May 25, 2019 03:14
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Maybe take a walk around the block, dude.
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May 25, 2019 03:37
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Preston Waters posted:Watch this: I think the difference is that those instances were handled in dialogue (elephant walkers landed to take out the shield generators, surface guns weren't as effective against fighters, etc.), while Last Jedi didn't bother to offer a technobabble explanation about why it worked *this* time and why they didn't do that against, say the more stationary Death Star or something. That's a fair statement to make, and if that took someone out of the movie for a minute, that's fair.
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May 25, 2019 03:52
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The real problem with the kamikaze is that it puts the lie to Rose's pablum. Most obviously, Holdo's allowed to sacrifice herself to save everyone, but Finn isn't. Granted, it turns out that Holdo's sacrifice isn't a permanent solution, but that doesn't mean it wasn't necessary to rescue the remaining Resistance from being picked off in space. In Finn's case, if the Resistance is to survive they have to destroy that super drill, at least as far as he knows. His desperate charge is absolutely necessary. On another level, it challenges Rose's rejoinder to "not fight the ones we hate, but save the ones we love." Holdo's sacrifice is meant to save the ones she loves, but she does kill a lot of people she doesn't like and it does require the death of someone the Resistance loves: Holdo herself. Indeed, that's Rose's point when she stops Finn. She loves Finn, hence the kiss and hence why she can't let Finn possibly kill himself. I think that's what people are getting at when they complain about the kamikaze attack. We can accept a lot of crazy stuff in a Star Wars movie, but the melange of various kinds of military actions and criticisms of those actions is just nonsensical. We as an audience don't know whether in this story last ditch suicide maneuvers are laudable, acceptable, or even commonly understood by the characters in the story. Does Rose know that Holdo died? When the characters in the movie literally don't understand what they just saw, it's a problem. In a better movie, this would serve to problematize the distinction between violence and pacifism. The better parts of Hacksaw Ridge, for instance, does a lot of this sort of thing. But in TLJ, everything just works out. No one is troubled or disturbed by this kind of insane violence and the movie does all it can to avoid challenging the audience either. edit: To tie this into the actual discussion a bit better, when the American Navy first encountered kamikaze fighters in World War II, the sailors were genuinely shocked and horrified. It had not occurred to them that this was a valid military strategy, and much was made about the uniquely depraved psychology of the Japanese soldier. It's pretty clear in the historical record that this kind of suicide attack was considered abhorrent at the time (and it really still is today). This kind of reaction could have been pretty written into The Last Jedi, and that may have even been the intention, but it doesn't really land. pospysyl fucked around with this message at 04:17 on May 25, 2019 |
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May 25, 2019 04:09
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Preston Waters posted:Watch this: The hole doesn’t point up and it’s easier to shoot ships in a dive which is extrmely basic to air combat The giant space shield points up and the elephant tanks walk under it Luke and the other characters did not make the plan together We see very clearly that they are not successful at getting a covert team onto the ground undetected, hyperspeed is not instantaneous, they do have intelligence reports, the base has air defenses You’re not real smart
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May 25, 2019 04:41
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DeimosRising posted:The hole doesn’t point up and it’s easier to shoot ships in a dive which is extrmely basic to air combat The common note with all of these is that they're largely explained ahead of time in dialog of the film. Even in situations where things go wrong (like the attack on the DS2 shield base) the audience knows what the goal is and can appreciate how things might fail. The lightspeed ram in TLJ is a different thing; it's not just a surprise to the characters, it's a surprise to the audience. This isn't necessarily bad, but it's very unlike Lucas's Star Wars.
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May 25, 2019 05:13
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DeimosRising posted:The hole doesn’t point up and it’s easier to shoot ships in a dive which is extrmely basic to air combat That's not true at all, unless you have a gun placed right in the angle of attack the ship is diving at (just like the guns in the trenches aimed at the horizon!) quote:The giant space shield points up and the elephant tanks walk under it ok but how'd they get past the shields then  quote:Luke and the other characters did not make the plan together Yes, they literally did. We know this when Chewie and Lando take off at the end of ESB. quote:We see very clearly that they are not successful at getting a covert team onto the ground undetected. Until they are??? They get zero help from space but win because they become allies with the VietCong, which I see you completely ignored in my op. quote:hyperspeed is not instantaneous, Correct, it is merely near-instantaneous from that distance in ROTJ.  quote:they do have intelligence reports, the base has air defenses So? Overwhelm it... kind of like the attack on the.... death... star.... ...... ....... quote:You’re not real smart  You're literally nitpicking with me over the fact that I quite literally said all of this to argue that you can nitpick anything to death and be a miserable husk of a person at all times. I never said I was "real smart." But I can definitely conclude that you're "real dumb."
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May 25, 2019 05:15
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Schwarzwald posted:The common note with all of these is that they're largely explained ahead of time in dialog of the film. Even in situations where things go wrong (like the attack on the DS2 shield base) the audience knows what the goal is and can appreciate how things might fail. The lightspeed ram in TLJ is a different thing; it's not just a surprise to the characters, it's a surprise to the audience. This isn't necessarily bad, but it's very unlike Lucas's Star Wars. You mean like when Luke accepts that he'd rather die than join Vader and lets go so he can fall to his death in Empire? The Holdo kamikaze is essentially the same type of thing. She resorts to literally dying in order to give her friends and army a mere chance to survive and continue the fight. Both were decisions made over seconds, if that. How could you plan for that? And I would like to point out that the audience should have been able to realize what was going to happen as soon as the ship started turning, especially taking into account the film's score.
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May 25, 2019 05:22
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pospysyl posted:edit: To tie this into the actual discussion a bit better, when the American Navy first encountered kamikaze fighters in World War II, the sailors were genuinely shocked and horrified. It had not occurred to them that this was a valid military strategy, and much was made about the uniquely depraved psychology of the Japanese soldier. It's pretty clear in the historical record that this kind of suicide attack was considered abhorrent at the time (and it really still is today). This kind of reaction could have been pretty written into The Last Jedi, and that may have even been the intention, but it doesn't really land. Well it has that one shot of Poe and everyone looking shocked / saddened as the lifeboats sail on toward the planet, but then it cuts to Hux about to draw his blaster while standing over a KO'ed Kylo Ren, which was arguably well placed comic relief. I hear what you're saying and pretty much agree w/r/t feeling the weight of it all, but I don't know exactly how to do that because the audience needs to process what just happened, itself (rather than jump into dialogue). Keep in mind, this was a character who we'd only met recently, so I think it was handled as well as it could be as far as pacing is concerned (that shot of Poe feeling crushed and full of regret). Now, if you're asking me which character death was royally hosed up? Han. Like what the gently caress??! We get a goddamn hug from Leia to Rey and get to see a split second of Chewie in agony, but nothing else? And then it's all handled off-screen when Rey has to tell Luke about it? Literally  JJ? That poo poo was on him more than Rian Johnson because the mourning as far as the audience is concerned should have happened at the end of TFA. Then it would have been completely acceptable to have it all explained to Luke off camera.
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May 25, 2019 05:34
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