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Pablo Nergigante posted:NSMB2 isn't hard, but it's entirely based around collecting insane amounts of coins Oh sorry, I thought you meant "actual Japanese version of Super Mario Bros 2." Maybe I should get a 3DS.
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May 24, 2019 15:15
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I still don't understand how NSMB2 wasn't a game starting Wario. [Edit: I'm wondering how feasible it would be to remake Wario Land II levels in SMM2.]
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May 24, 2019 15:18
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GreatGreen posted:Oh sorry, I thought you meant "actual Japanese version of Super Mario Bros 2." You should! But be warned that NSMB2 isn't actually that great, I just suggested it because of the coin gimmick
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May 24, 2019 15:19
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Pablo Nergigante posted:You should! But be warned that NSMB2 isn't actually that great, I just suggested it because of the coin gimmick I'm looking at some video of it and it looks fun. Also, as a bonus, it's a modern Mario game that gives Mario a decent running animation instead of the newer, completely idiotic one where he hits himself in the face with his fists every time he takes a step, so that's good.
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May 24, 2019 15:28
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NSMB2's Coin Rush mode is really fun and I hope against hope that it'll show up as an option in this game.
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May 24, 2019 15:40
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PaletteSwappedNinja posted:NSMB2's Coin Rush mode is really fun and I hope against hope that it'll show up as an option in this game. You could make fun "Collect X coins and reach the goal in time" levels.
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May 24, 2019 15:43
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My kokoro wish that will never make it in is more level analytics. Being able to see where players died is nice but I also want to see an overview with lines that shows me where players go in the level. If I hide a secret I wanna see if people find it. If i put an optional power up on as hard to get spot do players go for it? Show me these things reggie
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May 24, 2019 16:10
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Okay, so you've read all about how to create a level, but maybe you're still stymied in the moment to moment experience of design. If you're looking at a the next part of your level and you're saying I don't know what goes here, this essay is for you. Super Mario Maker level design using patterns and beats. What is a pattern?[1][2] On one level, a pattern is a solution for a design problem. Now the main (macro level) design problem in Mario games is "How do I create varied challenges to interest the player?". On another level, a pattern is a portion of design that the human brain can see repeated and varied. It's a language that we construct to be a shorthand for design concepts. This helps us to both understand the design on a deeper level and discuss it more easily. The easiest way to explain is with an example. Example: Enemy Valley Problem: Maybe you haven't noticed, but Mario can jump. It's pretty easy for him to avoid enemies that are on the ground without engaging with them at all by standing on an upper level. Solution: Create an area between two pillars that contains one or more enemies. The distance between the two pillars should usually be too long to jump from one pillar to the other. This forces the player to engage with the enemies. Does that sound familiar? That's because it's used twice in SMB 1-1 right here,  Now, patterns like can contain less complex patterns. Usually because basic patterns are extremely simple. For instance, 'enemy' is considered a pattern, so Enemy Valley nessacarily contains one of the variations of it. When this happens, the largest, most complex pattern is called the 'dominant pattern'. What is a beat? How are they used in Mario games?[3] Gameplay 'beats' are about the rhythm of a games action. The original definition for a beat was a single instance of a player taking an action, like jumping, but the later reference material I'm using considers a 'beat' to be the actions needed to complete a dominant pattern. By analyzing the first world of each Mario game the researcher found some interesting information about the changes in beats over different games. Over time the number of beats per level increased, nearly doubling (from around 16 to 27) between SMB and NSMB. Then a later trend is the increase of beats being overlaid on each other as the NSMB series progressed, overall causing the number of beats to go down. This implies both that later games became more dense with action, but also combined and modified the patterns in new ways. Note that this trend of increased beats really only picks up with the game boy games, and the number of beats in SMB3 and SMW is similarly 'slow' to SMB. If you want to create a more modern game use and combine a number of beats but if you want to make a 'realistic' old style level you'll want to take things slower. What are the failure consequences in Mario games?[4] So, an important part of keeping the player's interest is varying the patterns used. There are several dimensions that an individual pattern could be varied over, length, types of enemies contained, etc. But the one I want to discuss here is failure consequences, as it allows you to more easily vary difficulty and create a difficulty curve over the course of your level. The possible consequences for failure in increasing order of severity are, 1. You miss a reward, such as a dragon or star coin, or a power up. 2. You have to retry the challenge until you succeed. This option is very good for a teaching challenge at the beginning of a stage. 3. You take damage. 4. You immediately die usually from falling. It's easy to see how these failure consequences can be varied over a level, even when the challenge patterns are similar to create changing difficulty. A list of patterns used by Mario Games.[2][3] The left side is patterns used in non-underwater/non-castle levels in SMB. And the right side are additional patterns found the first world of every 2D Mario game up to NSMB2.  Putting the pieces together. Putting pieces together is exactly what design patterns are about. So by choosing a theme (see my previous essay), adding a series of patterns, varying the patterns in length and features, and creating a difficulty arc, now we're on the way to being able to instinctively build a good Mario level. References: [1]The Timeless Way of Building Christopher Alexander [2]Patterns and Procedural Content Generation Dahlskog/Togelius http://julian.togelius.com/Dahlskog2012Patterns.pdf [3]The Fine Line Between Rehash and Sequel: Design Patterns of the Super Mario Series Thompson https://www.researchgate.net/publication/280943816_The_Fine_Line_Between_Rehash_and_Sequel_Design_Patterns_of_the_Super_Mario_Series [4]Deconstructing Mario: How New Super Mario Bros. U handles Difficulty Ceave Gaming https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9NdAao9y_4 DalaranJ fucked around with this message at 20:25 on May 27, 2019 |
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May 24, 2019 23:04
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NSMB2 was an okay game but they could have went way farther with the whole coin collecting idea.
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May 25, 2019 00:28
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SeANMcBAY posted:NSMB2 was an okay game but they could have went way farther with the whole coin collecting idea. Why do you want to hurt us?
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May 25, 2019 00:31
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NSMB2 is best understood as a score attack game, in which you're meant to repeat levels and optimize your coin-collecting route.
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May 25, 2019 01:49
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It should've had even more coins, and also Mario can't die, and also replace Mario with Wario
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May 25, 2019 01:51
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Bongo Bill posted:NSMB2 is best understood as a score attack game, in which you're meant to repeat levels and optimize your coin-collecting route. Coin Rush is the best part. Some of the courses are pretty hard too and may actually be the hardest official courses in a Mario game. Speaking of hard courses, I hope it'll be possible to make a decent 2D appropriation of Champion's Road in the 3DW theme.
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May 25, 2019 01:54
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SeANMcBAY posted:Coin Rush is the best part. Some of the courses are pretty hard too and may actually be the hardest official courses in a Mario game. Lacking bowser's casino level theme would be a crime
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May 25, 2019 02:18
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Great post DalaranJ, really interesting. I'm sure I'll reference it is a month or so.
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May 25, 2019 02:20
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I checked out NSMB2 and yeah the golden powerup that lets you shoot golden fireballs that turn everything into coins is like crack.
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May 25, 2019 02:28
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DalaranJ posted:Excellent stuff This is all excellent stuff, and likely why I can't stand playing Donkey Kong Country. I never owned a Super Nintendo so I didn't / couldn't buy into the hype at the time. Playing it years later, I found the platforming either boring or incredibly frustrating. Rupert Buttermilk fucked around with this message at 03:30 on May 25, 2019 |
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May 25, 2019 02:57
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Rupert Buttermilk posted:This is all excellent stuff, and likely why I can't stand playing Donkey Kong Country. I never look owned a Super Nintendo so I didn't / couldn't buy into the hype at the time. Playing it years later, I found the platforming either boring or incredibly frustrating. I admit, not really sure where DKC comes from here. Does it not have a similar setpiece structure?
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May 25, 2019 03:03
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The Bee posted:I admit, not really sure where DKC comes from here. Does it not have a similar setpiece structure? Not from my memory, and that's why I bring it up. I was reading this and immediately remembered a bunch of places in almost every 2d Mario game I've played that were similar. And then I tried to think of other platformers that had at least some form of this logic. I was reminded of how DKC wasn't fun (for me) to play whatsoever, and it was due to the reasons I mentioned.
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May 25, 2019 03:28
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Gin posted:Great post DalaranJ, really interesting. I'm sure I'll reference it is a month or so. I'll be putting my  posts in the release OP. I think I screwed up modifying the image so I'll look into cleaning that up.Rupert Buttermilk posted:Not from my memory, and that's why I bring it up. I was reading this and immediately remembered a bunch of places in almost every 2d Mario game I've played that were similar. Oh, I wasn't saying that Mario has the secret sauce. Patterns are a thing that exists in every work created by humans (and if you agree with Christopher Alexander everything in nature, as well). The point is that if you know they exist, you can see them being used, and then you can use them to your advantage. You will use a solution that fits your problem, and not some worse solution. Personally, I think there's evidence that the makers of Super Mario Bros. understood patterns on some level, although the terminology wasn't in vogue at that time. I don't think we have any particular evidence that the makers of Donkey Kong Country didn't understand it. They definitely were using consequence levels intentionally to make DKC 'harder' than the Mario series and differentiate it.
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May 25, 2019 03:52
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If you compare DKC to the Rare games that immediately preceded it, like Battletoads or whatever, you can tell they were very consciously mimicking SMB's flow in a way they'd never attempted before.
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May 25, 2019 04:11
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DKC1 sometimes manages to have well-structured levels, but just as often is just arbitrary sequences of obstacles. DKC2, however, is like a textbook of classically sound level design.
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May 25, 2019 06:05
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GameXplain have a new video going over some miscellaneous info from the direct and other material. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TorfLfzXAHU Nothing earth shattering but they had some good info on how vertical levels work that I hadn't noticed before. More importantly, they hint that the preview embargo should be up very shortly, so we may be getting more info and impressions this week.
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May 27, 2019 17:31
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Mario Maker is £16 for 3Ds at the moment and good god I'm tempted to go for it. Just to take the edge off waiting/play about with some ideas while this interminable month ticks over. In other news, I wonder why I'm always loving broke?
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May 28, 2019 00:01
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Do it; it has a wonderful campaign mode with 100 official Mario levels, some of which are very clever.
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May 28, 2019 00:12
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J-Spot posted:More importantly, they hint that the preview embargo should be up very shortly, so we may be getting more info and impressions this week. No! There was time now! There was time!
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May 28, 2019 03:06
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I got Mario Maker Will U, and drat is the Expert 100 Mario challenge crazy. I consider myself a drat good Mario player, and even experimented with SPEEDRUNNING in college, but since of these are just abusive.
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May 28, 2019 04:35
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yeah, turns out, most people should not be game designers lots of good levels tho too
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May 28, 2019 05:14
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Hey since we're getting more music tracks as placeable sfx, what music do you want in the game? Here's my picks: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXskX4QFiAU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FH99_W3qn4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-3ssVgTkUM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1Xv2lGfh3k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBLcln_UF58 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uFpYEOGqV4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vyuwc5KCaF0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0PVPMLhxdQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYzcRxd5RDQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkoDgh1bTFA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koddd8Kd1LE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLladxRSjnY
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May 28, 2019 05:43
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F. Lobot posted:Hey since we're getting more music tracks as placeable sfx, what music do you want in the game? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAtd6NBvVA0
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May 28, 2019 11:47
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less laughter posted:Do it; it has a wonderful campaign mode with 100 official Mario levels, some of which are very clever. Done. Good lord I am easily led. Then again, I'm resetting an escape room all this week, and could do with something to distract me while the players are bumping into walls and trying to rip bookshelves apart.
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May 28, 2019 12:23
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Preview embargo is up. Sadly I’m at work and can’t spend my day getting hyped. Here are the GameXplain videos: https://youtu.be/8DhE3VJTSLQ https://youtu.be/cnRlWSBWx6A https://youtu.be/vHhQCvwi8-0 I’m sure other outlets are posting previews as well. Among other things the previews have confirmed same-screen local multiplayer is in, online with friends is not, and Amibo/mystery shroom are for sure gone. Also almost everything in the course maker is unlocked from the start, and the tutorials are more in depth and go into how to make your courses actually enjoyable. J-Spot fucked around with this message at 14:54 on May 28, 2019 |
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May 28, 2019 14:29
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J-Spot posted:online with friends is not. That is such a bizarre choice
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May 28, 2019 14:52
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DrManiac posted:Hell, I don’t know why Nintendo didn’t add some kind of sprite editor. How much do you like penises in your Mario games?
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May 28, 2019 14:59
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Flint_Paper posted:That is such a bizarre choice They claim it’s because of leaderboards but that doesn’t explain why they can’t do it in co-op or simply allow the same unranked option they have for local lobbies. It’s just Nintendo being Nintendo.
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May 28, 2019 15:03
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No overworld option, huh? I'm still buying this 100% though.
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May 28, 2019 15:18
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J-Spot posted:the tutorials are more in depth and go into how to make your courses actually enjoyable. I hope that if you place a thwomp or whatever directly above the spawn point, the game says "ARE YOU SURE YOU WANT TO DO THIS?????" I loved Mario Maker 1 but if you played online levels at random, literally like 50% of the levels drop poo poo on your head at the spawn.
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May 28, 2019 15:26
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I never played Mario Maker 1. Does anybody know if Mario Maker can start levels out with a pre-populated ground plane? Seems like it would be easier to make levels by just erasing to make ground holes and drawing elevated platforms where you need them rather than having to first drag the ground stamp across the entire level and also filling in below that EVERY TIME you start. If not, can you at least duplicate level files? So like, can you make a level you want to use as a template and name it TEMPLATE, then duplicate that file, rename it LEVEL 1, and then start editing that level? GreatGreen fucked around with this message at 15:35 on May 28, 2019 |
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May 28, 2019 15:31
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The ground starts premade.
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May 28, 2019 15:41
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GreatGreen posted:I never played Mario Maker 1. Does anybody know if Mario Maker can start levels out with a pre-populated ground plane? Seems like it would be easier to make levels by just erasing to make ground holes and drawing elevated platforms where you need them rather than having to first drag the ground stamp across the entire level and also filling in below that EVERY TIME you start. IIRC in MM1 you started with a very small level and would have to place your own ground tiles once you expanded it. Your template idea would absolutely work though.
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May 28, 2019 15:43
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