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30.5 Days posted:Honduras' murder rate is about double Venezuela's, but maybe Maduro is responsible for that too? Other way around. Honduras currently has a murder rate of 42 per 100,000. Venezuela is at 81 per 100,000.
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May 26, 2019 13:48
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Darth Walrus posted:Other way around. Honduras currently has a murder rate of 42 per 100,000. Venezuela is at 81 per 100,000. 42 is way low, and the only org claiming 81 is a Venezuelan focused ngo with a shady background (read: obvious cia ties). As far as the idea that we ought to trust Venezuelans about x, y, or z, remember that there were Americans who believed Obama stole the 2012 election because he was so deeply unpopular that of course he couldn't have won. In the absence of real data, how could a single individual tell the difference between Obama "unpopular", Trump unpopular, and Mubarak unpopular?
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May 26, 2019 13:56
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30.5 Days posted:Less flippantly, if your claims are true, then Maduro will be removed by the people if Venezuela, just like Perez was. If that's not happening, then we know why. Your crocodile tears would have more weight if your posting in this thread wasn't filled to the brim with contempt for chavistas, who if they are not the majority of Venezuelans now, were just a couple of years ago. "If the people were really suffering , surely the government would have already been overthrown by now" is the quintessential example of the just-world fallacy.
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May 26, 2019 14:02
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The people and politics of Venezuela being sufficient to solve the problems of Venezuela without foreign intervention is just world fallacy? I wonder if we can apply this thought process to America.
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May 26, 2019 14:04
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Looking more into these murder statistics, and I think this is a perfect example of what people were talking about upthread about "corruption". The UN report on homicide pegs both Venezuela and Honduras at 56/100k in 2016. That is the last year the study provided data. Both country's governments claim that their homicide rate dropped to the low 40's in 2017. In the case of Venezuela the response is "well they're obviously lying in fact the Trevor Wagner Institute For Coup Studies claims it actually shot up to 85 in 2017". In the case of Honduras there are literally dozens of articles about their "miracle".
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May 26, 2019 14:15
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30.5 Days posted:42 is way low, and the only org claiming 81 is a Venezuelan focused ngo with a shady background (read: obvious cia ties). Here's the 2017 stats - the OVV puts Venezuela at 81 per 100,000 for 2018, and I haven't been able to get any Honduran stats for 2018, but 42 is consistent with the steady, rapid drop in murder rates since 2011. As for the OVV having a 'shady background', what exactly do you mean by that? They seem quite open about being a network of Venezuelan academics within law, health, and civics university departments across the country.
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May 26, 2019 14:15
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Darth Walrus posted:Here's the 2017 stats - the OVV puts Venezuela at 81 per 100,000 for 2018, and I haven't been able to get any Honduran stats for 2018, but 42 is consistent with the steady, rapid drop in murder rates since 2011. As for the OVV having a 'shady background', what exactly do you mean by that? They seem quite open about being a network of Venezuelan academics within law, health, and civics university departments across the country. Why would you point to OVV after I already shittalked them as though I have no idea who they are. Yes, it's weird that obvious CIA NGO has venezuela's homicide rate almost doubling the very year a neutral third party stopped producing homicide data. EDIT: Also it sucks rear end that you'd low-key compare government-provided statistics to any NGO-provided statistics as though they're apples to apples.
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May 26, 2019 14:16
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30.5 Days posted:Why would you point to OVV after I already shittalked them as though I have no idea who they are. Yes, it's weird that obvious CIA NGO has venezuela's homicide rate almost doubling the very year a neutral third party stopped producing homicide data. And what makes them an 'obvious CIA NGO', exactly?
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May 26, 2019 14:18
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Darth Walrus posted:And what makes them an 'obvious CIA NGO', exactly? They'are an adjunct of LACSO, which was founded a couple months after perez was removed and basically exists to produce "social science" that says chavez/maduro are strangling venezuela.
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May 26, 2019 14:22
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30.5 Days posted:They'are an adjunct of LACSO, which was founded a couple months after perez was removed and basically exists to produce "social science" that says chavez/maduro are strangling venezuela. That’s a long play, considering Pérez was ousted half a decade before Chavez was elected (albeit that he was significant before that). Almost as long of a play as the people who thought Obama had his birth certificate faked in like 1965 on the Illuminati knowledge knowing this half African boy from Hawaii would some day be needed to destroy America. What was LACSO saying about society in Venezuela in like 2004 when things looked more or less ok by LatAm standards?
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May 26, 2019 15:07
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Last time I pointed out this poo poo that pro-coup posters keep trying to pull about how there's no racism Venezuela, I got told:Squalid posted:Can you quote them? If you can't I will assume you are just making this up. Saying there's no racism in Venezuela is such a ridiculous and absurd statement I can't imagine anyone actually saying it. "No you see, it is the people who oppose imperialist intervention and CIA-backed coups who are the REAL colonialists"
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May 26, 2019 16:03
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Timmy Age 6 posted:It's very unpleasant to see people who will (rightly!) declaim the evils of colonialism immediately make a hard turn to "listen here, you little savages, let me tell you about what it's really like in your country." Yea, obviously we should just uncritically accept obvious nonsense just because a person of the right nationality is spreading it
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May 26, 2019 16:13
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Bob le Moche posted:Last time I pointed out this poo poo that pro-coup posters keep trying to pull about how there's no racism Venezuela, I got told: I'm still waiting for teh quotes btw. Show, don't tell  30.5 Days posted:There are a lot of Venezuelans who know more about America than American right wingers. He repeated the myth of Venezuela being a rich country in the 70s, in the forest page of his posting in this thread, so like, what do you want me to say. This is a weird thing to pick on by why do you say it is a myth that Venezuela was (relatively) rick in the 1970s? True it was never like, Netherlands level rich, but going by UN estimates Venezuela was ranked 48/187 countries, compared to 78/212 in 2015. By 2018 that ranking has also almost certainly slipped farther. The seventies was a period of stable growth for Venezuela that the country has struggled to match. edit: oh also Bob le Moche, since we finally have someone in the thread with a real grasp on Marxian economics, do you have any comments on my recommendations for policy changes to fix some of Venezuela's issues long term? I was hoping at least one person would offer a defense of the Chavez program, but it seems there is nobody left willing to stand up for him. Squalid fucked around with this message at 16:22 on May 26, 2019 |
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May 26, 2019 16:17
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Btw in comparable terms, the oil boom of the 70s and early 80s was even more massive than that of the 2000s. Also, there have been numerous posters from Venezuela that still at least some of the reforms of Chavez even if they current oppose Maduro. That said, if ancedotal evidence doesn’t work, most evidence seems to show that things were improving into the early 2010s. It isn’t that there is a place for criticism btw. Ardennes fucked around with this message at 19:47 on May 26, 2019 |
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May 26, 2019 19:05
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Squalid posted:
A lot of Chavez's reforms were quite good but he hosed up in a few key areas. 1) He saved basically nothing from the oil boom so when the crash hit he had to rely on China to bail him out. He should've created some kind of social wealth fund or something to get through lean times. 2) His nationalisation and land reforms didn't go far enough and left enough of The bourgeoisie class intact to put up a good resistance against him. 3) It's not really possible to have a socialist state based purely on resource extraction. He should've put more effort into a value added goods industry. If you have a strong petrochemical sector it's a logical step to get into plastics, say. A basic tenant of Marxism is that you need a capitalist state first in order to grow into a communist one. Venezuela doesn't really have a big enough manufacturing industry to be self sufficient, as we've seen with their power grid troubles. Programs to create major infrastructure components domestically are vital.
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May 26, 2019 20:32
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Moist von Lipwig posted:A lot of Chavez's reforms were quite good but he hosed up in a few key areas. 1. Isn't quite true, Venezuela actually had fairly large currency reserves (around 30 B + gold) in 2009, but they rapidly dwindled over the next 3 years. If anything Chavez was propping up the Bolivar too much and by 2012, the government was down to 2-3 b in reserves. This initially kept inflation down until 2012 when inflation spiked and become hyperinflation in the next few years. 3. It is a tough one, and something the Soviet Union also struggled with, it isn't just access to raw resources but having the IP and costs low enough to be competitive.
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May 26, 2019 21:05
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Moist von Lipwig posted:2) His nationalisation and land reforms didn't go far enough and left enough of The bourgeoisie class intact to put up a good resistance against him. This is a criticism that I've heard several times, but sometimes it leaves me feeling a bit puzzled. For one thing, you are completely side stepping the issue of production. Why do you think Venezuela's production of corn, sugar, and livestock all began a rapid decline following the second phase of land reform? THS made fun of me for being overly technocratic, but at some point you have to address practical issues like, you know, making food, instead of just destroying your enemies. My second complaint is that in the aftermath of the failed recall referendum, Chavez basically did destroy or coopt nearly all of his bourgeoisie enemies, or at least Venezuela's richest and most powerful. Today almost all of the richest people inside Venezuela are Maduro allies, and not just government ministers fat off smuggling and kickbacks, the media and business owners as well. Some examples to illustrate why I believe this: the media outlet Globovision used to held up as an example of how the bourgeoisie were working to undermine the Bolivarian revolution for its editorial line that was quite critical of Chavez. However, following increasing pressure from the government, Globovision was sold in 2013, likely under government pressure, to group of business people including Raúl Gorrín, known to be close to Maduro. Gorrin was one of the individuals sanctions this January by the US government. Often described as a media mogul, Gorrin made much of his fortune exploiting Venezuela's weird currency exchange system and is now protected from the US government by the Maduro administration. Another of the richest Venezuelans is Alejandro Betancourt. Since the mid 2000s, Betancourt's companies have made hundreds of millions of dollars through contracts with the Venezuelan government, especially to upgrade and provide maintenance on the electricity grid. Given the poor state of the the grid, this has recently raised some questions regarding how much he ever actually did. His fortune was made in the Chavez era and is entirely dependent on state contracts, he is not a political threat to Maduro and is probably an ally involved in various kickback schemes. Then of course there's Alex Saab, a Colombian business man who works in Venezuela. His primary business appears to be assisting in money laundering and other forms of financial operations for the Venezuelan state, its hard to track the network of these individuals but its probably a lot. Meanwhile many of the richest Venezuelans have been politically silent and seemingly irrelevant. Possibly the richest Venezuelan, banker Juan Carlos Escotet, has been a political non-entity. In 2018 the Venezuelan government accused his bank of attacking the currency, arrested 11 executives and placed government officials on the board of directors. This continued for over 90 days before Escotet with the assistance of Spanish officals negotiated their release and got out of government receivership. I'm not sure what exactly went on with that, but my impression is that Maduro felt he had made his point and Escotet had listened. My point is not that no rich Venezuelans oppose Maduro, but rather than Chavez and Maduro after him followed a concerted strategy of creating a new loyal class of the rich Venezuelan elite that they can rely on for political support. The assumption that all of the opposition is driven by still intact bourgeoisie class is I think also a misapplication of class analysis. Chavez did face a lot of bourgeoisie opposition, but the primary base of opposition support always came from the middle class urban professionals. This is why the opposition was able to organize the oil strike in 2002, because they really did have a lot of backing among the industrial workers. Chavez's political rise came through mobilizing those who felt they they had been left out of benefits of the good oil industry jobs and the earlier distributionist policies of the seventies and eighties, which I believe disproportionately favored the middle class. Squalid fucked around with this message at 03:20 on May 27, 2019 |
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May 26, 2019 22:55
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Saladman posted:That’s a long play, considering Pérez was ousted half a decade before Chavez was elected (albeit that he was significant before that). Almost as long of a play as the people who thought Obama had his birth certificate faked in like 1965 on the Illuminati knowledge knowing this half African boy from Hawaii would some day be needed to destroy America. It's not a long play since they were doing the same with caldera, because perez was a stooge for foreign interests to the extent that nobody since has been, and the point is they wanted a new one. They were making things up in 04 and in 95 and 09 and now. That's their job. This was the guy who founded LACSO and is currently running the OVV: https://www.wilsoncenter.org/person/roberto-briceno-leon Again, I want to reiterate that the OVV is claiming that the exact same year there stopped being a neutral third party to produce homicide statistics, Venezuela's increased by 30%, and every other country in latin america with high homicide dropped by 30%, purely on the word of their governments. Squalid posted:This is a weird thing to pick on by why do you say it is a myth that Venezuela was (relatively) rick in the 1970s? True it was never like, Netherlands level rich, but going by UN estimates Venezuela was ranked 48/187 countries, compared to 78/212 in 2015. By 2018 that ranking has also almost certainly slipped farther. The seventies was a period of stable growth for Venezuela that the country has struggled to match. 48 puts it near like, paraguay. By GDP per capita, it was much higher than that in the early 70s. However, GDP per capita doesn't talk about inequality. Venezuela was notable for its "middle class" (i.e. top quintile) in the mid-20th century. But you start looking at statistics that can't be gamed by massive wealth in a single quintile and things look quite bad. It had a very bad caloric intake, lower than Cameroon, bad infant mortality and life expectancy, etc. You can't have a quarter of the society benefit from oil wealth and call yourself a rich country. One quintile is large enough that people in that quintile might come to the conclusion that things are great and not understand what happens next, though. 30.5 Days fucked around with this message at 23:11 on May 26, 2019 |
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May 26, 2019 23:07
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To put it another way, if bin salman was deposed and 20 years went by, in a general sense it would be accurate to say "saudi arabia was a rich country under the house of saud". But when you're talking about poverty under the new government, it would be deeply inappropriate and false to say "wow people are starving- we used to be a rich country under the house of saud".
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May 26, 2019 23:14
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I do really appreciate the narcissism in this thread that comfortable and rich white people in the developed world are telling actual Venezuelans about if the food crisis is real or the racial politics of the country. But but but my google reviews prove the country is doing A-OK!
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May 26, 2019 23:34
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how dare you argue with real venezuelans btw obama was an illegal president cause he was born in kenya, I know because actual americans told me so
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May 26, 2019 23:48
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536 posted:I do really appreciate the narcissism in this thread that comfortable and rich white people in the developed world are telling actual Venezuelans about if the food crisis is real or the racial politics of the country. Google review man aside, did you expect the Venezulan racists to admit a problem with racism in their country?
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May 27, 2019 00:02
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Keeshhound posted:Is there a word for well off people pulling this "If things are so bad, why aren't people trying to change it?" horseshit? I used to just see it from the antiimmigrant fuckers in regards to Syria, but I'm not surprised to see it getting rehashed into Maduro apologia, either. The criticism isn't "but nobody is doing anything" the criticism is "but lots of people are doing big pro-Maduro rallies?" Moridin920 fucked around with this message at 00:13 on May 27, 2019 |
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May 27, 2019 00:09
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AFancyQuestionMark posted:"If the people were really suffering , surely the government would have already been overthrown by now" is the quintessential example of the just-world fallacy. No it isn't. "If there was widespread starvation there would be more civil unrest" is a valid observation given that in the past usually those two things go hand in hand. It's not definitive by itself obviously but it is a piece of evidence that is not in support of the US narrative.
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May 27, 2019 00:11
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Huh. Guess the sanctions aren't hurting people that much then
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May 27, 2019 00:33
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30.5 Days posted:48 puts it near like, paraguay. What no Venezuela was much wealthier than Paraguay throughout the seventies, according to world bank statistics Venezuela's GDP per capita was well over double Paraguay's in 1980. The only wealthier independent Latin American nations at the time were the Bahamas and Trinidad and Tobago. Anyway, the raw statistics here are less important than popular impressions. Like I'm sure everyone here is aware that Americans are massively better off than they were in the fifties, but that period is still idealized for its stability and growth. Popular memory is really what we are talking about, and a cursory look at World bank data shows the seventies were a period of rapid improvement in Venezuelan quality of life indicators like life expectancy and educational attainment. You are probably right the economic benefits were highly unequally distributed, high inequality has long been the norm in Venezuela and the rest of of Latin America. Where did you get your statistics though, because the World Bank numbers show Venezuela with an infant mortality rate 1/3 that of Cameroon in 1980. There were lots of social programs that benefited large swaths of Venezuela's population, including gas subsidies and the land reform of the 1960s.
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May 27, 2019 00:40
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Squalid posted:What no Venezuela was much wealthier than Paraguay throughout the seventies, according to world bank statistics Venezuela's GDP per capita was well over double Paraguay's in 1980. The only wealthier independent Latin American nations at the time were the Bahamas and Trinidad and Tobago. Yes, venezuela's GDP per capita wasn't #48, it was like 4 or 5. You said they were ranked 48 on some ranking, and that puts them near paraguay generally. You're arguing with yourself here. quote:Anyway, the raw statistics here are less important than popular impressions. Like I'm sure everyone here is aware that Americans are massively better off than they were in the fifties, but that period is still idealized for its stability and growth. Popular memory is really what we are talking about, and a cursory look at World bank data shows the seventies were a period of rapid improvement in Venezuelan quality of life indicators like life expectancy and educational attainment. I think you're telling on yourself here. If someone says "things used to be better in america in the 50's", that's not "popular memory" for the majority of the country, it's popular memory for a double digit percentage of the country who run the nation's news-media and control all the resources. It is also that way in venezuela. If a person who says venezuela used to be rich also says "no, maduro is deeply unpopular, nobody I talk to likes the guy", we can now qualify that opinion with some context and decide "gee actually a foreign-backed coup probably wouldn't have a lot of support".
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May 27, 2019 01:28
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It seems like you're moving the goalposts from "well he knows more about venezuela than some randos" to "well the bullshit he believes in is venezuelan bullshit so we can be assured that everyone else in venezuela believes it too" without regard to social factors that cause some insular groups to believe bullshit not accepted by the population at large. If you can't understand why this is more condescending than just telling the guy he's wrong then I don't know what to tell you.
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May 27, 2019 01:31
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536 posted:But but but my google reviews prove the country is doing A-OK! The purpose was to try and gauge the distribution/intermittency/severity of food issues with data available, without relying on biased/compromised sources because there were pretty wild (not implying false) claims of zoo animals being consumed and so on. You are reading too much into it if you thought I was implying everything is fine.
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May 27, 2019 01:45
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Corky Romanovsky posted:The purpose was to try and gauge the distribution/intermittency/severity of food issues with data available, without relying on biased/compromised sources because there were pretty wild (not implying false) claims of zoo animals being consumed and so on. You are reading too much into it if you thought I was implying everything is fine. But you don't know anything about the means of the people eating at those restaurants, so you haven't actually learned anything.
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May 27, 2019 02:00
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Look, if restaurants exist how food shortages? This is unassailable logic.
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May 27, 2019 02:04
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The Google review posts were pretty dumb I'm Not as dumb as calling for US invasion of your own country though
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May 27, 2019 03:18
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30.5 Days posted:Yes, venezuela's GDP per capita wasn't #48, it was like 4 or 5. You said they were ranked 48 on some ranking, and that puts them near paraguay generally. You're arguing with yourself here. You've totallly lost me, this reads like it was generated by an algorithm. I have no idea how to interpret your first sentence, while your second is just wrong. Venezuela ranked 48th highest in the world in UN per capita GDP estimates for 1970, while Paraguay ranked 139th, with a per capita GDP of less than 1/5th of Venezuela's. I have no idea what you mean when you say Venezuela was "like 4 or 5". Your point about popular memory is strange as well. Personally I don't have any strong opinions about what historical narratives are or aren't popular today in Venezuela because I have no information about that other than a few things said in this thread. As you have not shared anything that shed light on popular narratives, it seems likely that you do not have any information either, so I am confused as to why you even have an opinion on this subject. If you have a source you should share it. If you have no basis for these arguments you should keep them to yourself. 30.5 Days posted:It seems like you're moving the goalposts from "well he knows more about venezuela than some randos" to "well the bullshit he believes in is venezuelan bullshit so we can be assured that everyone else in venezuela believes it too" without regard to social factors that cause some insular groups to believe bullshit not accepted by the population at large. If you can't understand why this is more condescending than just telling the guy he's wrong then I don't know what to tell you. I think you have misinterpreted me. I'm not defending some specific statement Fnox may have made years ago since as you haven't quoted it I have no idea what statement you were even criticizing. However by many metrics Venezuela was relatively well off for Latin America in the seventies, a decade in which the country experienced rapid growth (a different variable from wealth, but obviously related), widespread improvements in quality of life, and took in large numbers of immigrants from poorer nations like Colombia. To say that it is a myth that Venezuela was rich in this period strikes me as weirdly pedantic, even if it was only relatively rich compared to its neighbors. I'm not sure why you read so much into this statement which on its face is reasonable if perhaps somewhat exaggerated.
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May 27, 2019 03:54
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Vincent Van Goatse posted:Look, if restaurants exist how food shortages? This is unassailable logic. The "Great Famine" of Ireland is also just propaganda, because you could get a nice steak and chips in Dublin in 1848. Why don't the starving Venezuelans just eat brioche, ffs. E: I do kind of appreciate the idea of getting independent data from Google Reviews, but they're so rare they're almost completely useless in terms of aggregating anecdotes into data.
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May 27, 2019 11:01
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Is quite obvious that we cant take the few Venezuelans posters here as representative of all Venezuelans. Societies are unequal and divided, and I would said thats even more true in latin america. If you ask a rich white southern brazilian about Brazil and then ask a poor black brazilian from the north, chances are you are going to get very different stories, they lived very different lives. Im pretty sure that holds true for Venezuela too. Its nice that we have people from Venezuela here to share their experience, but that does not means we have to take their word uncritically as if it was representative of The Venezuelan People And yes, I was reading here when people like fnox started arguing about "no racism in Venezuela" and it raised huge red flags for me too, cause I knew most of those arguments ("we dont have races here as in the USA, is different", "we are all mixed", "our national food as created by slaves") from white brazilian racists Thats my hot take as a neighbour latin american Elias_Maluco fucked around with this message at 12:22 on May 27, 2019 |
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May 27, 2019 12:15
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Elias_Maluco posted:And yes, I was reading here when people like fnox started arguing about "no racism in Venezuela" and it raised huge red flags for me too, cause I knew most of those arguments ("we dont have races here as in the USA, is different", "we are all mixed", "our national food as created by slaves") from white brazilian racists I agree with you generally, but alluding to fnox being a white racist is pretty dumb, considering that iirc his RL nickname is "el negro". Not that dark-skinned people can't be racist and/or unaware of societal issues. I'm not going to bother looking back in the archives, but IIRC the discussion was more that it's about colorism and not racism in Venezuela. I have no idea how accurate either is for VZ, but in any case colorism is far more prevalent worldwide so I'd tend to side with that, even though my only understanding outside this thread is from Wikipedia entries about Venezuela and a handful of Chuck's links.
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May 27, 2019 12:57
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Saladman posted:I agree with you generally, but alluding to fnox being a white racist is pretty dumb, considering that iirc his RL nickname is "el negro". Not that dark-skinned people can't be racist and/or unaware of societal issues. colorism is a subset of racism as it is based on the association of skin color to race, especially in proximity to whiteness, and would not exist if these associations did not. it's weird to treat it as a distinct thing.
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May 27, 2019 13:09
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Let me just clarify so that you have something else to possibly quote ad nauseum as a way to diminish the experience of millions of Venezuelan expats. What I meant was, it's not the sort of racism you talk about in the US. Venezuelan society is not sharply divided by racial lines like America is, and it never has. And I don't think anybody's experience in Venezuela was remotely similar to how things are like in America, that type of systemic, insidious racism where everyone's scared shitless of each other hasn't been a thing in modern day Venezuela. I'm not denying the upper classes are mostly conformed of European and Asian immigrants and their children, what you'll find is just that the class divide is a lot sharper than the race divide, particularly now when there's so many boliborgeoisie noveau riche. You can see this for yourself, go to the fancier areas of Caracas, and literally just look around, you'll see what I mean, you'll see rich people of all races, and then poor people of mixed race stuck in supermarket queues for 6 hours of the day. The constant equating of American societal problems with Venezuela results in an obvious distortion. This is what I keep saying to these loving people and they never listen. There is no majority race group in Venezuela, most Venezuelans are mixed race, this is the result of a completely different racial dynamic, that doesn't mean there isn't racism, it just means it's not the same. Turns out you can have a lovely unequal society even without a race divide, who would've thought! As for the Venezuela of the 70's, you would have to be completely and absolutely blind to not claim that the Venezuela of the 70's wasn't better than what life is now over there. Those were times where the social programmes that eventually fell apart in the 80s and 90s actually worked, the government was bankrolling education abroad through Fundayacucho and that had lasting effects in reducing inequality. The current government has so completely abandoned this initiative that their site doesn't even work, despite it once being a cornerstone of Chavez' educational approach. I mean I'm not even sure why that is being contested. Is the alternative supposed to be that the current state of affairs in Venezuela is a more equal society than what it was before? Really? Is this what you want to achieve? Just complete loving despair? My friend Daniel Guerrero died 2 weeks ago from meningitis. He could've been treated, he would've lived, if only we had been able to find the medicine for his treatment in due time, however it's nigh loving impossible to find antibiotics in the entire country because of the Bolivarian revolution's handling of the health care system, and by the time treatment arrived due to donations from friends abroad, he was already comatose. Dude my age dies a horribly loving death, just because he wasn't one of the lucky ones to make it out. This is the problem with you pieces of poo poo. This crisis doesn't hurt you, it hurts my friends, it hurts my family, it hurts me. The desperation does not reach you, the consequences do not reach you, you have no stake in this other than just your loving posturing. We will never be on the same terms, we will never see this the same way, because you can choose to ignore the suffering, and I can't, so while I'm willing to settle for just anything that will make this poo poo end, you can live on your life happy as ever riding on your high loving horses. fnox fucked around with this message at 13:30 on May 27, 2019 |
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May 27, 2019 13:28
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US military invasion will not make the bad times end, friend
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May 27, 2019 14:53
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Sigh this entire thread is people strawmanning each other and misrepresentation. Like dude no one ever said Venezuela's race relations were like the USA's and btw classism was mentioned too and that was also denied. Fuckin' colorism lol. What is it that you want? Besides just to keep calling people itt rear end in a top hat moralists???
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May 27, 2019 16:46
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