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Yes I think it was a side bit in Storm of Iron. Lady gets in space armor goes of to murder.
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May 28, 2019 05:42
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Deified Data posted:Giving some thought to adding some women to my Black Legion - best part is it requires no explanation more in-depth than "chaos did it". Not that I owe anyone an explanation, but "the warp did it" is irrefutable. That's actually a really good point, why aren't there any female chaos Marines? I mean, between the whole "beggars can't be choosers" for replenishing their numbers, warp mutations, Slaanish loving with their followers genders because they can, and Tzeench changing the genders because Tzeench, you would think we would have are least one female chaos marine. I mean, there wouldn't be any noticable change on the minis, but AFAIK it's never really come up in the fluff either.
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May 28, 2019 12:46
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Randalor posted:That's actually a really good point, why aren't there any female chaos Marines? I mean, between the whole "beggars can't be choosers" for replenishing their numbers, warp mutations, Slaanish loving with their followers genders because they can, and Tzeench changing the genders because Tzeench, you would think we would have are least one female chaos marine. Chaos still use sexist gene seeding.
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May 28, 2019 12:48
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My headcanon when I was in 40k poo poo was that Space Marines are gonna look like that after they integrate their stupid alien power-up glands even if they started out as ladies.
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May 28, 2019 12:54
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Randalor posted:That's actually a really good point, why aren't there any female chaos Marines? I mean, between the whole "beggars can't be choosers" for replenishing their numbers, warp mutations, Slaanish loving with their followers genders because they can, and Tzeench changing the genders because Tzeench, you would think we would have are least one female chaos marine. Yeah, it's a strange thing given the nature of Chaos, but I agree that I've never been sure what people want from "female space marine" models. They're juiced-up muscle monsters in huge suits of power armor, it's not like there's a lot of sexual dimorphism or gender expression in that scenario.
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May 28, 2019 13:00
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Idk if I'm comfortable with little girls being abducted and tortured into fascist super soldiers but also give the people what they want I guess.
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May 28, 2019 13:01
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JBP posted:Idk if I'm comfortable with little girls being abducted and tortured into fascist super soldiers but also give the people what they want I guess. Women should obviously do their part for ethnic cleansing too.
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May 28, 2019 13:09
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No. 1 Apartheid Fan posted:I've never been sure what people want from "female space marine" models. Sometimes, just the opportunity to not be denied being part of something because of our sex.
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May 28, 2019 13:27
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No. 1 Apartheid Fan posted:Yeah, it's a strange thing given the nature of Chaos, but I agree that I've never been sure what people want from "female space marine" models. They're juiced-up muscle monsters in huge suits of power armor, it's not like there's a lot of sexual dimorphism or gender expression in that scenario. Does the skull get transformed into a mans shape by default? Why would that be the case? I think insisting that Space Marines have to look like men because the fictional technology dictates it is extremely weak sauce. Punkinhead fucked around with this message at 13:45 on May 28, 2019 |
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May 28, 2019 13:40
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Nessus posted:My headcanon when I was in 40k poo poo was that Space Marines are gonna look like that after they integrate their stupid alien power-up glands even if they started out as ladies. Honestly, I dislike the "Actually there are lady marines but they would 100% be facially hosed up" take as much as "no girl marines". There's been conventionally attractive (and not just in the square jawed he man way) looking marines in recent canon. I can totally buy kind of a square jawish but obviously feminine female marine. I'm thinking those cross fitter ladies, the competitive tiers tend toward the "juiced-up muscle monsters" area anyways. Ronwayne fucked around with this message at 14:10 on May 28, 2019 |
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May 28, 2019 13:58
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This is one of the areas where the fluff is really inconsistent with the presentation. If you try to do some real reading into how Space Marines work, a lot of the background suggests that they are recruited in early adolescence or even childhood because it allows the genemods to work more effectively; then they apparently train and drill 20 hours a day, sleep for 3.75, and get 15 minutes a day for 'introspection'. If you apply that framework, well, yea, probably any kid you recruit at 10 and subject to intense body modifications prior to puberty and then train relentlessly fro decades is going to end up as a sort of aggressively bulky meat potato. But, for lots of the actual presentation, this is not at all what we are shown. For a lot of specific marines, their backstory isn't being scooped up at age 10 (because as a personal narrative that's disturbing as gently caress) it's usually late teens or even adulthood once they have distinguished themselves in some way. Then as marines, sure they train and fight hard, but they also apparently have time for whatever passes for their chapter's culture. If you look at the Space Wolves they definitely have time to have huge boozer parties. They also grow huge beards, muttonchops, and extravagant mustaches. They are very clearly coded as male. The Sanguinary Guard armor is clearly modeled off an idealized male form; it's not a reflection of what a marine might look like under their armor. The background mechanics of becoming a marine are intended to impress how dramatic and difficult the process is, but everything we get in terms of narrative is that these are definitely a bunch of bros; they are not characterized as genderless, sexless, biohuman machines sculpted only for murder.
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May 28, 2019 14:32
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Nessus posted:My headcanon when I was in 40k poo poo was that Space Marines are gonna look like that after they integrate their stupid alien power-up glands even if they started out as ladies. See I used to assume this too but then I think of Fulgrim who's basically Griffith from Berserk and figure there's got to be some room in the geneseed for androgyny.
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May 28, 2019 14:57
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The 20 hours a day thing is Codex marines only, I think woofs and others get extended sabbaticals to go dire woof hunting on the woof ice and etc etc.
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May 28, 2019 15:03
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No. 1 Apartheid Fan posted:Yeah, it's a strange thing given the nature of Chaos, but I agree that I've never been sure what people want from "female space marine" models. They're juiced-up muscle monsters in huge suits of power armor, it's not like there's a lot of sexual dimorphism or gender expression in that scenario. As long as women are not represented within the game's iconic faction, it's always going to be that much harder to make the game feel inclusive.
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May 28, 2019 15:07
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2022 - GW releases new Guard plastic kit with 50/50 gender split 2023 - Guard becomes the new "perspective faction" with Marines becoming occasional big-boy helpers in the background
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May 28, 2019 15:12
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Ashcans posted:Then as marines, sure they train and fight hard, but they also apparently have time for whatever passes for their chapter's culture. If you look at the Space Wolves they definitely have time to have huge boozer parties. They also grow huge beards, muttonchops, and extravagant mustaches. They are very clearly coded as male. The Wolves also recruit adults. Their whole recruitment method is to pick up deathworlders from the tribal society of Fenris who have distinguished themselves in the eyes of the Chapter, because nobody else would survive the initiation.
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May 28, 2019 15:31
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My memory is that different books don't talk to each other that well. The cool 'we pick the hardest warriors from feudal worlds and make them SPACE KNIGHTS' thing is clearly favored in talking about heroic-ish Marine Chapters, while the dehumanizing child abduction and tons of failed candidates version shows up when the Imperium's evil is being emphasized. There's two different narrative goals, and two versions of 'what Space Marines are like.'
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May 28, 2019 15:46
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Deified Data posted:2022 - GW releases new Guard plastic kit with 50/50 gender split I unironically would love this. To be honest, I don't think the bodies are too unwomanly, you'd probably only need more feminine heads. I haven't seen a decent set of helmeted female heads for 'guard online, though. Victoria Miniatures probably do some, but ordering from Australia to the UK... The early Horus Heresy novels had a bit where a regular human noticed how hosed up Marines look out of their armour. Something to do with the gigantism (obviously different to how it appears in humans, as the Space Marine 'gigantism' is genetically altered to be more stable/not cause an early death and, frankly, weaponised) and how their ribs are more bone armour plates than actual ribs. As said earlier, it isn't shared among all the books.
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May 28, 2019 16:35
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LashLightning posted:I unironically would love this. To be honest, I don't think the bodies are too unwomanly, you'd probably only need more feminine heads. I haven't seen a decent set of helmeted female heads for 'guard online, though. Victoria Miniatures probably do some, but ordering from Australia to the UK... Victoria, Staturesque, and a couple others do female imperial guard models and conversion bits now.
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May 28, 2019 16:48
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Steel Legion sculpts have been 50% female from day one. 
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May 28, 2019 17:31
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Liquid Communism posted:The Wolves also recruit adults. Their whole recruitment method is to pick up deathworlders from the tribal society of Fenris who have distinguished themselves in the eyes of the Chapter, because nobody else would survive the initiation. I thought the Wolves recruited children, just that the criteria for recruitment was the same as their passage of "adulthood" that they take when they're... 12? 13? Either way, they're still preteens by our standards.
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May 28, 2019 20:11
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40K Lorechat is not the topic of this thread.
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May 28, 2019 20:21
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lol for anyone who's been online around 2008 until today, the two topics are obviously intertwined though.
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May 29, 2019 00:40
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We've been through the traditional "Is 40k fash?" to "Why no girl marines?" Next up: "Slaanesh and the overlap with things 4chan nerds get horny about"
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May 29, 2019 00:42
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Ronwayne posted:We've been through the traditional "Is 40k fash?" to "Why no girl marines?" Next up: "Slaanesh and the overlap with things 4chan nerds get horny about" Hence me cutting it off.
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May 29, 2019 02:08
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There's arguments to be made that putting a woman in a traditionally masculine violence role (ala GI Jane), is no less sexist than not doing that. You defeminize the woman while masculinising her violence. It's a sort of dehumanising change.
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May 29, 2019 06:12
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Edit : Nevermind, it's not worth the blood pressure and Beer is cutting off the discussion anyways
Punkinhead fucked around with this message at 06:24 on May 29, 2019 |
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May 29, 2019 06:22
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Marneus Calgar: what makes a space marine, Mr Cawl? Is it the will to carry the light of the emperor, whatever the cost? Isn't that what makes a space marine? Bellisarius Cawl: Um sure... That and a pair of testicles. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 29, 2019 07:27
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Kokoro Wish posted:There's arguments to be made that putting a woman in a traditionally masculine violence role (ala GI Jane), is no less sexist than not doing that. You defeminize the woman while masculinising her violence. It's a sort of dehumanising change. What, because it would "taint" her precious womanhood with violence, and violence for some reason being inherently masculine? I clearly do not agree. Is an Amazon less of a woman? What is a "traditional masculine violence role", and why would putting a woman there not automatically, per definition, remove the "traditional masculine" part?
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May 29, 2019 09:09
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That was a bad framing on my part and I apologise. I mean this argument within the space largely of male focussed, male gazey creation, like some film (hence the mention of GI Jane) or a game like Warhammer 40k. Largely it's a male focussed version of the woman in the military. Either it's they become "one of the guys" ("suck my dick") a variant on "one of the good ones" where she entirely sublimates herself to male judgement of value where her womanhood is only a facile cosmetic difference after stripping herself of as many gender signifiers as possible, or a sexualized male fantasy version of a woman soldier, ala old Sister of Battle or Clan Escher. Both of these are male oriented fantasies, one of submission and the other of sexualization. What I am saying is that if not handled well, keeping in mind why the woman as a person would do what she's doing, male nerds are largely going to go to one of these kinds of tropes. What they're doing with the new Sisters of Battle to de-token/male gaze them will be interesting to watch, but unless it's handled with care I don't think just making female chapters of space marines, without their own motivations in this male power fantasy created universe is necessarily an answer, especially if it falls into that first trope. I guess it came out the way it did because I was trying to avoid referencing 40k again, even though it's a post involving it that spurred my response. Plus really is largely a film/cinema focussed critique. Again, apologies. Kokoro Wish fucked around with this message at 11:09 on May 29, 2019 |
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May 29, 2019 10:41
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Aha, ok good. Now I agree with you for what it's worth.
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May 29, 2019 12:37
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Kokoro Wish posted:That was a bad framing on my part and I apologise. How do you resolve/navigate the issue then? What would be a male presentation of a woman combatant that isn't either of those things?
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May 29, 2019 13:00
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Ronwayne posted:How do you resolve/navigate the issue then? What would be a male presentation of a woman combatant that isn't either of those things? 
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May 29, 2019 13:17
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Yes, this is actually one of the top examples in film.
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May 29, 2019 13:20
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Yes, but this is a broken comparison. In reality, female soldiers or marines just look like soldiers or marines when in combat dress. From a game POV, "this female Space Marine is a space marine with a female head who's a little shorter" exactly matches reality, and in no way has anything to do with the male gaze. Combat heels are garbage in every way, but games don't cover personal lives, where female soldiers are regular women. From tradgames, male and female being more or less identical is spot on. Their identity is "soldier"
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May 29, 2019 13:27
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I'm willing to allow this conversation to continue if someone would please explain to me how it's relevant to the topic of fascism in traditional gaming.
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May 29, 2019 13:31
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Ronwayne posted:How do you resolve/navigate the issue then? What would be a male presentation of a woman combatant that isn't either of those things? Look to real world examples of women who fight. 
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May 29, 2019 14:33
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:I'm willing to allow this conversation to continue if someone would please explain to me how it's relevant to the topic of fascism in traditional gaming. Fascism and sexism are inextricably intertwined. How women are represented in games is important. If they're competent protagonists, good! If they're helpless objects or sex toys, not good, and there's something that needs fixed.
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May 29, 2019 14:35
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Cessna posted:Fascism and sexism are inextricably intertwined. 
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May 29, 2019 14:45
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Cessna posted:Fascism and sexism are inextricably intertwined. Traditionally "fascism" meant ultra nationalism, with authoritarian (often centralized) control over a strongly regimented society and economy. It's absolutely correct to say that sexism is intertwined with fascism because regimentation of society basically always included telling women what to do (comfort the manly men and have their babies to make the country stronger). But basically all cultures and systems of government had the same sexist trait - and to a certain extent still do. So while it's a fundamental part of facsim, sexism is not a defining feature. Equating sexism with fascism lets non-fascist sexist societies off the hook. Also a sexism in tabletop gaming thread could easily stand on its own.
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May 29, 2019 14:57
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