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Maneck posted:Traditionally "fascism" meant ultra nationalism, with authoritarian (often centralized) control over a strongly regimented society and economy. But fascism has also traditionally concerned itself with striking blows against feminism in particular, and with the return of women to 'traditional' roles of wife, mother, and sex object. It, more than other ideologies, is in no small way definable by its inherent desire to oppress women.
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May 29, 2019 15:03
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See also all the Nazi propaganda around "traditional German mothers," or for a more modern take, the Spanish fascist party Vox which defines itself as much by its anti-feminism as by its nationalism.
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May 29, 2019 15:25
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:I'm willing to allow this conversation to continue if someone would please explain to me how it's relevant to the topic of fascism in traditional gaming. I'm starting to get the impression that you can't see the parallels between things like female representation in 40K and dudes painting dogwhistle nazi anime robots or whatever. Fascism as a topic isn't just dudes seig heiling and saying the N word its anything that leads to authoritarianism and regressive, harmful stereotypes and ideologies. The logical conclusion of this stuff is that it leads to Fascism or fits very comfortably under the umbrella of fascism. I appreciate that this makes the thread tricky to moderate, but it is an extremely broad topic and I'd suggest checking out the kinds of discussions you'll see in leftist circles on twitter/dnd/cspam. This thread is good because Goons are usually good. Atleast, these days.
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May 29, 2019 15:58
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Loomer posted:But fascism has also traditionally concerned itself with striking blows against feminism in particular, and with the return of women to 'traditional' roles of wife, mother, and sex object. It, more than other ideologies, is in no small way definable by its inherent desire to oppress women. I agree with you about fascism's views towards women, but that cinches the conclusion it doesn't belong in this thread. Fascism categorically rejects the idea of women in the military. Any depiction of women soldiers is anti-fascist. The problem is sexualization of women soldiers in wargaming. Sexualized women soldiers are anti-fascist, but still sexist.
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May 29, 2019 16:13
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Southpaugh posted:This thread is good because Goons are usually good. Atleast, these days.
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May 29, 2019 16:13
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Maneck posted:Fascism categorically rejects the idea of women in the military. Any depiction of women soldiers is anti-fascist. Well, no - not even close. The Nazis of WWII had women in their military, including the infamous SS:  They were generally in subordinate roles, working in administrative or support jobs. But many weren't, performing tasks like working as anti-aircraft gun crews:  And the Nazis also had women in decidedly non-support roles whose activities were made public. The infamous Hannah Reitsch, for example, was a test pilot for the Luftwaffe and was very much a fascist:  But these women were oddities, and none of this invalidates the fact that there was and is a huge tendency towards misogyny in fascism. The idea that it is axiomatic that "any depiction of women soldiers is anti-fascist" is simply incorrect:  Tl;dr - it isn't "are women portrayed in TG." It is "how are women portrayed in TG." Cessna fucked around with this message at 17:26 on May 29, 2019 |
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May 29, 2019 16:34
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Maneck posted:Traditionally "fascism" meant ultra nationalism, with authoritarian (often centralized) control over a strongly regimented society and economy. Also specifically in the context of ttg right now, the fash are deeply tied up in hyper-misogynist stuff like gamergate.
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May 29, 2019 17:21
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:I'm willing to allow this conversation to continue if someone would please explain to me how it's relevant to the topic of fascism in traditional gaming. Perhaps this thread would be better served, and less pigeonholed, with a slight moniker change from fascists in trad games to reactionaries/conservatism in trad games. Because while the venn diagram containing these people is a perfect circle 99% of the time, there are edge cases that would probably make moderating this thread easier if we didn't have to ask "what does this have to do with fascism" every time we veer off-topic. I'm sure there are anti-feminists/homophobes/racists/etc who aren't technically fascists, after all - many of them are liberal in a mainstream sense and just dull as hell.
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May 29, 2019 17:22
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Contextually, the portrayal of women in fascist/nationalist organizations is a complicated one. To quote Teitelbaum, himself quoting Blee:Ben Teitelbaum, Lions of the North posted:”two contrasting models of femininity have prevailed in radical race nationalism: the conservative mother-of-the-nation and the fiercely activist skinbyrd. Scholars have suggested that female insiders’ ability to gain influence in the scene shifts based on which of these broad personas they align with. Women brandishing a more traditional image typically participate in race nationalist organizations by fostering a family-like ethos and by facilitating positive interaction among insiders and with outsiders—roles that sociologist Kathleen Blee calls “familial” and “social.” Though vital to an organization’s functioning, activists often conceptualize these as supportive, background roles. In contrast, women embracing skinhead or militaristic identities have had a greater chance of playing an “operative” role. Here, female insiders directly enact an organization’s central method of activism and achieve formal and informal leadership positions (Blee 2004). The dominant narrative for many nationalist/fascist groups is one that calls to reinforce a gender binary in terms of presentation and role, with the clear preference being for highlighting feminine aspects: however, as the above details, the entry of women into masculine spaces is accepted when they adopt the style and aggressiveness of their masculine counterparts, with some specific labels and signifiers attached to it - contrast the jargon term “skinbyrd” (female skinhead) with common female warrior terms that are co-opted by modern fash: valkyrie, for example, gets stolen because they have a hard-on for Wagner. So, the issue of female representation and roles exists on a wide axis and the aesthetics need to be considered in terms of where they’re originating and the intent. It’s entirely possible to be sexist and non-fash (still a poo poo person, though), just as some fash can be non-sexist and driven by women in self-determined roles. The origins and context behind stuff matters, and there’s way too much stuff that can get tangled up in gender and representation to create a perfect measure of fash. In general, though, if the only models someone makes are women in distress and male gaze models, then they’re part of a different problem with gaming.
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May 29, 2019 17:25
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Deified Data posted:Perhaps this thread would be better served, and less pigeonholed, with a slight moniker change from fascists in trad games to reactionaries/conservatism in trad games. I also miss grognards.txt but for some reason we can't have it back.
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May 29, 2019 17:37
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Liquid Communism posted:Also specifically in the context of ttg right now, the fash are deeply tied up in hyper-misogynist stuff like gamergate. This. Sexism, racism and homophobia are gateways and/or tell-tales of fascism. I think is fine to flag that behaviour for potential all-out fash
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May 29, 2019 18:08
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Cessna posted:Well, no - not even close. The Nazis of WWII had women in their military, including the infamous SS: Women in the military is contrary to the patriarchal ideals from which fascism arose. The Nazis abandoned many of their fascist principals when they became inconvenient. During WWII, they went from tearing down working women to publishing propaganda to get women into the workforce and (non-combat) military because they realized more working bodies were urgently needed. That said, your post shows a completely different route to the same conclusion. Since even fascists managed to portray non-sexed up women military units, sexism in ttg can be independent from fascism. Pacho posted:This. Sexism, racism and homophobia are gateways and/or tell-tales of fascism. I think is fine to flag that behaviour for potential all-out fash Yes and also those are problems unto themselves, irrespective whether the source is fascist. A broader title makes sense. Is grognards.txt is still out?
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May 29, 2019 18:57
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Maneck posted:Since even fascists managed to portray non-sexed up women military units, sexism in ttg can be independent from fascism. Can be, but very often isn't. They are generally two heads of the same hydra of bullshit.
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May 29, 2019 19:06
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I can see how it would seem off topic to some as it's a whole other rabbit hole of badness, but I'd be effectively saying "This thread is for identifying and discussing authoritarian fuckwits who want to oppress others (fascists), unless those others are women, because that's different somehow".Southpaugh posted:Fascism as a topic isn't just dudes seig heiling and saying the N word its anything that leads to authoritarianism and regressive, harmful stereotypes and ideologies. The logical conclusion of this stuff is that it leads to Fascism or fits very comfortably under the umbrella of fascism. Basically this.
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May 29, 2019 19:12
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BIG MEATY SHITS posted:I can see how it would seem off topic to some as it's a whole other rabbit hole of badness, but I'd be effectively saying "This thread is for identifying and discussing authoritarian fuckwits who want to oppress others (fascists), unless those others are women, because that's different somehow". I appreciate the feedback and we can keep things going as they are. The conversation on women in fascism is particularly interesting; the historical context has been great content. Southpaugh posted:I'd suggest checking out the kinds of discussions you'll see in leftist circles on twitter/dnd/cspam. Yeah gently caress that.
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May 29, 2019 19:46
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Deified Data posted:I'm sure there are anti-feminists/homophobes/racists/etc who aren't technically fascists, after all - many of them are liberal in a mainstream sense and just dull as hell.
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May 29, 2019 20:22
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Pacho posted:This. Sexism, racism and homophobia are gateways and/or tell-tales of fascism. I think is fine to flag that behaviour for potential all-out fash There’s also a pretty clearly observed “pipeline” for radicalizing libertarians and mainstream conservatives that I think is worth discussing, especially because fascists like to play coy about their beliefs as long as it remains tenable to do so:  The conservative media ecosystem pretty heavily cross-pollinates, so you end up with a web of connections starting with “respectable” conservatives like Ben Shapiro and Candace Owens bringing their audiences to the mainstream “alt-light” types like Steven Crowder and Molyneux, and then in turn those guys offering a portal to the cryptofascists like Warski and Sargon who in turn will do stuff with open Nazis like Richard Spencer. So, while Shapiro would never say he aligns with Spencer, his audience has a clear pipeline to doing so and that’s how you end up with stuff like this. The right wing bubble starts in a place most find to be an acceptable point of discourse and then gradually introduces fringier and fringier elements until you end up with open fascism. You start with people ranting about how AOC wants to turn us into Venezuela and then they find some YouTuber that activates a pet issue for them (gamergate was a huge recruitment tool to turn sexists into full on chuds) and before you know it they’re embracing all sorts of far right garbage. It’s all deeply interrelated and there’s tons of it happening in nerd culture right now.
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May 29, 2019 21:33
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And to tie that back in, Carl Benjamin (and by extension Nazis like Spencer) gets signal boosted to the wargaming community, through people like Arch Warhammer and The Quartering. "Mansplaining Warhammer 40,000" is one example that nobody should look up.
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May 29, 2019 21:41
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:
Maybe you should consider asking someone who is willing to take the time to understand the context to moderate this thread. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 29, 2019 21:42
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BIG MEATY SHITS posted:And to tie that back in, Carl Benjamin (and by extension Nazis like Spencer) gets signal boosted to the wargaming community, through people like Arch Warhammer and The Quartering. "Mansplaining Warhammer 40,000" is one example that nobody should look up. TheQuartering/Unsleeved Media/Jeremy Hambly is a good person to talk about in this thread. He started as a somewhat annoying Magic: the Gathering YouTuber who started leaning pretty hard into 4chan flavored extremism as a way to build a following, then got permabanned from competitive play by WotC for leading a harassment campaign against a cosplayer. Since then he’s been trying to find a place in right wing YouTube and was involved in some sort of incident at GenCon last year where he claimed that antifa tried to beat him up or something. A good example of what the fascist recruitment pipeline looks like in a specific traditional games context.
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May 29, 2019 22:00
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:
To be fair to those sub forums, they read pretty much like this thread, for the good and the bad.
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May 29, 2019 22:03
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tallkidwithglasses posted:TheQuartering/Unsleeved Media/Jeremy Hambly is a good person to talk about in this thread. He started as a somewhat annoying Magic: the Gathering YouTuber who started leaning pretty hard into 4chan flavored extremism as a way to build a following, then got permabanned from competitive play by WotC for leading a harassment campaign against a cosplayer. Since then he’s been trying to find a place in right wing YouTube and was involved in some sort of incident at GenCon last year where he claimed that antifa tried to beat him up or something. A good example of what the fascist recruitment pipeline looks like in a specific traditional games context. The alt right modus operandi: earn a lifetime ban from the platforms from which your entire livelihood is derived, then blame the liberals, women and minorities.
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May 29, 2019 22:13
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tallkidwithglasses posted:TheQuartering/Unsleeved Media/Jeremy Hambly is a good person to talk about in this thread. He started as a somewhat annoying Magic: the Gathering YouTuber who started leaning pretty hard into 4chan flavored extremism as a way to build a following, then got permabanned from competitive play by WotC for leading a harassment campaign against a cosplayer. Since then he’s been trying to find a place in right wing YouTube and was involved in some sort of incident at GenCon last year where he claimed that antifa tried to beat him up or something. A good example of what the fascist recruitment pipeline looks like in a specific traditional games context. At time of writing he’s nearing in on almost 50 videos screaming about Captain Marvel. Fascism’s horror is only matched by it’s pettiness.
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May 29, 2019 22:20
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BoneMonkey posted:To be fair to those sub forums, they read pretty much like this thread, for the good and the bad. I was more concerned about having to read liberal Twitter.
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May 29, 2019 22:21
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:I was more concerned about having to read liberal Twitter. I think a lot of posters in this thread were suggesting a leftist perspective, not a liberal one. Liberalism tends to appease fascism instead of confronting it outright or building resilient communities to deny it purchase, which is the recommended course of action the thread suggests if you find fascists and their friends congregating within your hobby.
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May 29, 2019 22:29
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Could someone explain the key differences between leftism and liberalism? I tried googling but the first few results were poo poo like PragerU and I’m not going to subject my eyes to that sort of thing. E: you can’t even search for things on the internet without having to worry about an insidious political spin
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May 29, 2019 22:34
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:I was more concerned about having to read liberal Twitter. God forbid someone having to think about new ideas and other perspectives. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 29, 2019 22:38
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tallkidwithglasses posted:I think a lot of posters in this thread were suggesting a leftist perspective, not a liberal one. Liberalism tends to appease fascism instead of confronting it outright or building resilient communities to deny it purchase, which is the recommended course of action the thread suggests if you find fascists and their friends congregating within your hobby. Fair enough, and thank you for the clarification. I feel like if people want me to understand their perspective then they should share it here or via PM.
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May 29, 2019 22:39
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Mr. Humalong posted:Could someone explain the key differences between leftism and liberalism? I tried googling but the first few results were poo poo like PragerU and I’m not going to subject my eyes to that sort of thing. At its most basic, reductionist level I’d say that leftism fundamentally rejects market economics while liberalism embraces it. A canonical liberal tends to believe in a foundation of inalienable human rights that should serve to guide the protections the state offers, while the commercial exchange of money, goods and people between sovereignties should be restricted as little as possible. A canonical leftist would question the necessity of the state in the arrangement at all, and would likely argue that the commerce component of the liberal ideal is so inherently exploitative of the disadvantaged that the human rights component of the liberal model is a fig leaf at best and intentional hypocrisy at worst. In practice today, most major political parties are “liberal” with a fringe on both the left and right showing up around the world.
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May 29, 2019 22:42
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Mr. Humalong posted:Could someone explain the key differences between leftism and liberalism? I tried googling but the first few results were poo poo like PragerU and I’m not going to subject my eyes to that sort of thing. Liberals are people on the centre-left/left who are insufficiently left/too establishment for the people who think of themselves as "leftists".
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May 29, 2019 22:44
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LatwPIAT posted:Liberals are people on the centre-left/left who are insufficiently left/too establishment for the people who think of themselves as "leftists". 
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May 29, 2019 22:47
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Ilor posted:The biggest example of this that leaps immediately to mind are the "Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminists" (aka TERFs), where you essentially have a militantly liberal ideology that just happens to want to marginalize a segment of potential allies because reasons. Natalie Wynn (ContraPoints) did a nice analysis of this recently that's absolutely worth checking out. For even more fun, groups of them are being manipulated and funded by churches from the States (see: Hands Across the Aisle). A number of UK TERFs tried to influence the vote on repealing Ireland's 8th Amendment (a ban on abortion)... on the pro-ban side.
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May 29, 2019 22:50
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Yeah, TERFs are slowly having the 'feminist' portion of the acronym squeezed out through this influence. A lot of their spaces are more tradwife than radfem these days.
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May 29, 2019 23:11
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I like Philosophy Tube's series on liberalism as a kinda introduction, but it doesn't help that the alt-right (and basically everyone else) is neoliberal while calling everyone to the left of them dirty liberals while centrists describe themselves as liberal.
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May 30, 2019 00:38
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I will make one post about this and never bring it up again, but I am attempting to build a place on facebook where lefty Hams can congregate and talk hobby, make fun of chuds, etc. Goons are largely good people and I generally trust everyone's intentions, so if you'd like to help a group like that grow, shoot me a PM or quote me if you can't and I'll link you. If this is against the rules/spirit of the thread let me know and I'll just delete it.
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May 30, 2019 01:07
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Deified Data posted:quote me if you can't and I'll link you. I'll take a link to this
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May 30, 2019 01:11
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Doorknob Slobber posted:I'll take a link to this I'll just post it for folks without PMs https://www.facebook.com/groups/tideoftraitors/
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May 30, 2019 01:16
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I'd love to join, but I don't do Facebook because I'm a filthy counter-culture Luddite. 
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May 30, 2019 01:18
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You have the right idea. Pity those if us who still use it for whatever reason.
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May 30, 2019 01:24
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Beer4TheBeerGod posted:I was more concerned about having to read liberal Twitter. The stuff of nightmares.
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May 30, 2019 02:07
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