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rhaegar was close enough to joncon for jon to be in love with him and barristan at least really respects him and doesnt view him as a weirdo or anything so im not sure where you are getting rhaegar was super distant to everyone but arthur
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May 29, 2019 01:37
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Josuke Higashikata posted:The Father didn't save his children. Thus negating his father status. The Father works in mysterious ways.
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May 29, 2019 01:58
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PupsOfWar posted:irl like half the world converted to christianity despite genuinely believing in magic and witchcraft, i dont think its a plot hole or w/e that the Seven are a dominant faith in westeros the faith of the seven took over in westeros through a combination of genocide and deliberate suppression of pre-existing faiths, yeah
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May 29, 2019 02:22
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Yeah everything about the maesters hints at destroying magic and promoting the non-magic religion where everyone quietly obeys their lords.
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May 29, 2019 02:34
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violent sex idiot posted:rhaegar was close enough to joncon for jon to be in love with him and barristan at least really respects him and doesnt view him as a weirdo or anything so im not sure where you are getting rhaegar was super distant to everyone but arthur Joncon and Rhaegar is clearly one sided and respect is different from actual like an friendship edit: I mean it could happen that all of a sudden he fell in love ,but given how prophecy obsessed this dude is it's way more likely he went full ends justifies the means with regards to getting his 3rd head of the dragon A HORNY SWEARENGEN posted:Yeah everything about the maesters hints at destroying magic and promoting the non-magic religion where everyone quietly obeys their lords. I forget is Marwyn banned? SirKibbles fucked around with this message at 03:30 on May 29, 2019 |
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May 29, 2019 03:22
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SirKibbles posted:Joncon and Rhaegar is clearly one sided and respect is different from actual like an friendship He’s still an archmaester when he leaves to meet up with Dany.
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May 29, 2019 03:35
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PupsOfWar posted:im sure lyanna was into it initially I doubt she'd blame Rhaegar for his father's actions, reminder that the whole escalation started with Brandon (who very likely knew Rhaegar never abducted Lyanna) rode to the red keep and screamed for Rhagar to "come out and die", which by all accounts is a thing you probably shouldn't do. Aerys was a murderous gently caress head, but Brandon was a big idiot too.
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May 29, 2019 03:57
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he’s a stark. of course they’re all big dumb idiots
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May 29, 2019 04:00
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violent sex idiot posted:rhaegar was close enough to joncon for jon to be in love with him and barristan at least really respects him and doesnt view him as a weirdo or anything so im not sure where you are getting rhaegar was super distant to everyone but arthur id say rhaegar was at minimum close to all 3 of the Kingsguard who were at the tower of joy - they'd have to be especial allies of his in order to go along with rhaegar's schemes rather than reporting to Aerys (who likely was not in on any of said schemes) so that's 3 pals right there, plus friend Griff then if the big theory about Harrenhal is true (that Rhaegar was funding that tourney thru proxy of House Whent in order to scheme against Aerys) it implies he had whole houses and factions that were special cronies of his, which implies some serious hobnobbing he might still have been a hosed-in-the-head guy who didn't care about anyone, but I'd say he could definitely at least pretend well enough to get these various scheming nobles to trust him with their lives emanresu tnuocca posted:I doubt she'd blame Rhaegar for his father's actions, reminder that the whole escalation started with Brandon (who very likely knew Rhaegar never abducted Lyanna) rode to the red keep and screamed for Rhagar to "come out and die", which by all accounts is a thing you probably shouldn't do. regardless of whether she blamed Rhaegar, i dont think she would want to stay in the tower after the war started it's lyanna - "stay put in the secret fortified hiding place and wait safely until the trouble is over" is the exact opposite of what she would want to do if her family got into a war and the war lasted like 2-3 years so it ain't like she was 2 knocked up 2 travel the whole time imo rhaegar had to've been either confining her or concealing the news from her
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May 29, 2019 04:22
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A Typical Goon posted:At the same time after typing all this, I'm doing a re-read and I'm about halfway through Dance, and I think that Game of Thrones is easily the worst book. The story is good and enjoyable but its inconsistent and a lot of what happens is plain illogical and fantastical, and I think a lot of trouble stems from GRRM writing it thinking that he was going to have a tight quick trilogy and the editor not knowing the general endgame. A lot of Ned and Catlyn's conveniently idiotic choices stir the plot a little too well and don't really make too much sense when looked back at logically with things we've learned from the next 4 books. But I mean the book came out like 25 years ago, when GRRM was writing it even he probably didn't really know what we were going to learn in the next 4 books. Another version of this would be that GoT was written by someone who still had an actual idea on how the series would go.
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May 29, 2019 04:35
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PupsOfWar posted:id say rhaegar was at minimum close to all 3 of the Kingsguard who were at the tower of joy - they'd have to be especial allies of his in order to go along with rhaegar's schemes rather than reporting to Aerys (who likely was not in on any of said schemes) There's probably some embellishment going on but book Rhaegar was apparently pretty charismatic. I think he probably did care about everyone but wasn't going to let that stop him from doing what he felt needed to be done to fulfill prophecy.
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May 29, 2019 05:15
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PupsOfWar posted:id say rhaegar was at minimum close to all 3 of the Kingsguard who were at the tower of joy - they'd have to be especial allies of his in order to go along with rhaegar's schemes rather than reporting to Aerys (who likely was not in on any of said schemes) The war lasted less than a year starting from Lyanna and Rhaegar eloping together in secret, Brandon was headed for his wedding with Cat when he instead rode to King's Landing and got himself arrested, than it took months for the northern Lords to ride to King's Landing where they got executed and Aerys called for Robert and Ned's heads, which prompted Jon Arryn to call his banners and start the war. So, odds are that Lyanna was already a few months in to a difficult pregnancy. It makes sense to me.
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May 29, 2019 05:16
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Why would Brandon know that Rhaegar didn't kidnap Lyanna? Where would he have learned that I think most folks who were around knew that Lyanna wasn't into Robert (who I believe had already fathered a bastard at this point), but there's a leap from that to thinking she willingly ran off with Rhaegar
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May 29, 2019 18:45
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Mike N Eich posted:Why would Brandon know that Rhaegar didn't kidnap Lyanna? Where would he have learned that Unless the books operated on TV show logic it would be safe to assume everyone involved knew that Lyanna was into Rhaegar and not into Robert, Robert too. The thing is that Brandon would have ridden to the Red Keep whether it was kidnapping or not, because they cared about the politics of wedding Robert to Lyanna, not about who Lyanna was attracted to. A world of ice and fire also has some text about the circumstances of the kidnapping, wherein Lyanna went unexpectedly to oldstones and there rhaegar "attacked" her party or something like that which sounds pretty flimsy. I can look it up later. though my opinion is largely based on conjecture.
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May 29, 2019 19:01
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Mike N Eich posted:Why would Brandon know that Rhaegar didn't kidnap Lyanna? Where would he have learned that imo he probably knew because the unspoken story of the Tourney of Harrenhal is that Rhaegar figured out Lyanna was the knight of the laughing tree and that's when they fell in love and also made kind of a public show of it at the end. I guess it's possible that it never came up again between them for a whole 2 years but it seems unlikely. It still doesn't make much sense because I don't think GRRM really thought it all out in the first place, or he has some background info on Rhaegar/Lyanna's courtship in those two years that wasn't filled in yet.
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May 29, 2019 19:14
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It may be just me reading into show stuff a bit more than I should, but when Bran tells Sam about R+L, he doesn't say that the rebellion was based on a misconception or a mistake, but that it was built on a lie. Being lied to is different than making a false assumption, and it's been postulated that the liar in question could have been Littlefinger himself, who had a grudge against Brandon and was hanging around at the Crossroads Inn around the same time, still butthurt about losing the duel for Cat. If Littlefinger did indeed sow some of his trademark chaos by telling Brandon that Rhaegar had forcefully abducted Lyanna, it makes sense that Brandon would just go down to King's Landing and try to fight Rhaegar, and it also would echo Littlefinger's plot in the first book to get Ned Stark killed.
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May 29, 2019 19:59
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Trudis posted:It may be just me reading into show stuff a bit more than I should, but when Bran tells Sam about R+L, he doesn't say that the rebellion was based on a misconception or a mistake, but that it was built on a lie. Being lied to is different than making a false assumption, and it's been postulated that the liar in question could have been Littlefinger himself, who had a grudge against Brandon and was hanging around at the Crossroads Inn around the same time, still butthurt about losing the duel for Cat. If Littlefinger did indeed sow some of his trademark chaos by telling Brandon that Rhaegar had forcefully abducted Lyanna, it makes sense that Brandon would just go down to King's Landing and try to fight Rhaegar, and it also would echo Littlefinger's plot in the first book to get Ned Stark killed. lady dustin seems to think that the rebellion was on the way well before lyanna was taken, which like, yeah. the alliance between starks arryns tullys and baratheons was already set up before r+l. theres no lie
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May 29, 2019 20:44
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Figuring out that Lyanna never liked Robert is one of the more fun things to tease out on your own and it kind of sucks that the show just said it out loud, but at the same time I guess even dumb butts should enjoy how funny it is that the entire saga here is kicked off by Ogre from Revenge of the Nerds refusing to admit his crush turned him down.
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May 29, 2019 21:50
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Trudis posted:It may be just me reading into show stuff a bit more than I should, but when Bran tells Sam about R+L, he doesn't say that the rebellion was based on a misconception or a mistake, but that it was built on a lie. Being lied to is different than making a false assumption, and it's been postulated that the liar in question could have been Littlefinger himself, who had a grudge against Brandon and was hanging around at the Crossroads Inn around the same time, still butthurt about losing the duel for Cat. If Littlefinger did indeed sow some of his trademark chaos by telling Brandon that Rhaegar had forcefully abducted Lyanna, it makes sense that Brandon would just go down to King's Landing and try to fight Rhaegar, and it also would echo Littlefinger's plot in the first book to get Ned Stark killed. How would Littlefinger do that, he was at his basically meaningless holding on the fingers wasn't he? And Brandon didn't have any respect for him, he beat him in a duel and only left him alive because Catelyn asked him to. Why would he listen to him? It seems more likely Varys had something to do with it, though I can't really fathom his reasoning.
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May 29, 2019 22:10
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it’s because starks are dumb as poo poo
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May 29, 2019 22:18
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Counterpoint to the Seven not existing. Sansa is the most devout worshipper of the Seven in the book, she prays to them to hurt Joffrey and everything she prays for happens to him.
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May 29, 2019 23:07
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HidaO-Win posted:Counterpoint to the Seven not existing. Sansa is the most devout worshipper of the Seven in the book, she prays to them to hurt Joffrey and everything she prays for happens to him. On the other hand the leeches supposedly killed all the usurpers. On another hand an atheist poisoned Joffrey, someone who doesn't give a poo poo about the strictest of the laws of the gods killed Robb (et al), and an evil wizard that does human sacrifices to dark gods killed Balon Greyjoy, and all of them had their motivations well before the fire god got involved.
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May 29, 2019 23:16
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counter counter point: a pussy ghost made by a follower of rhollor killed the 4th usurper
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May 29, 2019 23:31
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violent sex idiot posted:counter counter point: a pussy ghost made by a follower of rhollor killed the 4th usurper That one definitely directly gets a point for fire god, as does the resurrections.
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May 29, 2019 23:45
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emanresu tnuocca posted:The war lasted less than a year starting from Lyanna and Rhaegar eloping together in secret, Brandon was headed for his wedding with Cat when he instead rode to King's Landing and got himself arrested, than it took months for the northern Lords to ride to King's Landing where they got executed and Aerys called for Robert and Ned's heads, which prompted Jon Arryn to call his banners and start the war. really? huh. i could have sworn the siege of Storm's End alone lasted for over a year (per stannis), and that wouldn't even have started until a good ways into the war, after Robert was forced to retreat into the Riverlands. but the Robert's Rebellion timeline is famously screwy even by Gurm standards, i probably shouldn't try to reason through it that way emanresu tnuocca posted:Unless the books operated on TV show logic it would be safe to assume everyone involved knew that Lyanna was into Rhaegar and not into Robert, Robert too. The thing is that Brandon would have ridden to the Red Keep whether it was kidnapping or not, because they cared about the politics of wedding Robert to Lyanna, not about who Lyanna was attracted to. I can imagine Brandon not catching on to Lyanna's dislike of Robert or imagining she was just kvetching and would get over it. Brandon after all was just Slim Robert (or Robert was just Thicc Brandon) so it might've taken some self-awareness he probably lacked in order to realize Robert's behavior was offputting re: anyone lying about Lyanna's elopement to call it kidnapping It makes sense that somebody might have. Brandon didn't go to King's Landing alone - he was accompanied by a whole group of young noblemen, not all of whom were Stark vassals he could easily command through fealty or peer pressure. It makes sense that there were some broader dissembly that kept any of those guys from going "wait, Bran my man, maybe threatening the life of the crown prince, in the middle of the royal capital, is a bad idea?" That said, it didn't have to be one of the big schemer characters that did it. Littlefinger orchestrating both wars would be an over-the-top scheming achievement even in a Gurm book It could have been whatever retainers were supposed to be chaperoning Lyanna, trying to cover their asses. Or maybe Benjen hosed it up somehow (there are a lot of fan theories that the reason Benjen took the black, during a time when the Stark succession was perilous, is because he had somehow colluded in setting up the R+L elopement and felt responsible for the entire war)
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May 30, 2019 00:01
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TK-42-1 posted:it’s because starks are dumb as poo poo The wolf blood they call it,Lyanna had a touch of it and Brandon more than a touch. Real good for punching poo poo not good for much else.
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May 30, 2019 01:05
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The Starks are well written as the “straight guys” or “normal men” of the series. Until you reread or rewatch the series and realize that while they have some bad rear end moments, they cannot compete in the world of politicking and backstabbing that is constantly happening.
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May 30, 2019 02:15
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chaosapiant posted:The Starks are well written as the “straight guys” or “normal men” of the series. Until you reread or rewatch the series and realize that while they have some bad rear end moments, they cannot compete in the world of politicking and backstabbing that is constantly happening. I think they’re the straight guys because most people can’t operate on that level of constantly scrutinizing their own actions. They do what they have to do and follow the rules and things generally work out. When confronted with people who don’t give a poo poo and take what they want they don’t know how to react. It’s just in this setting it gets you killed rather than just irritated that some guy just cut in line.
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May 30, 2019 02:20
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That is 100% accurate. Was it ever stated if GRRM actually intended for Ned to “seem” like he was the “lead character?”
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May 30, 2019 02:22
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chaosapiant posted:That is 100% accurate. Was it ever stated if GRRM actually intended for Ned to “seem” like he was the “lead character?” In the end it’s the story of the Starks defeating their enemies so yes.
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May 30, 2019 02:33
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chaosapiant posted:That is 100% accurate. Was it ever stated if GRRM actually intended for Ned to “seem” like he was the “lead character?” Going in blind I was shocked they killed Ned because he absolutely seemed like the big lead character. Especially when you consider his kids are only 13 and he was definitely no older than 30 because of the weird marriage ages. He seemed like the young dad hero. Turns out his oldest boy was the hero. Oh no. Oh no no no.
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May 30, 2019 02:35
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ned being a lord is a abberation. he was raised to be a vassal to his brother so he is very loyal and honourable and unambitious and a big fat loving dipshit. he never realizes that he was trained wrong, as a joke, and so he raises his own kids to be like him, complete morons who are utterly unsuited to moving in the halls of power in feudalism
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May 30, 2019 02:38
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violent sex idiot posted:ned being a lord is a abberation. he was raised to be a vassal to his brother so he is very loyal and honourable and unambitious and a big fat loving dipshit. he never realizes that he was trained wrong, as a joke, and so he raises his own kids to be like him, complete morons who are utterly unsuited to moving in the halls of power in feudalism And then the Tully blood came along
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May 30, 2019 02:46
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The Starks and the Northerners are definitely smarter in the books than the show. In the books they get outmaneuvered by playing against chessmasters while they have all the subtlety of a sledgehammer. In the show you end up questioning how any of them manage to accomplish anything when every single northern lord is a regressive jackass who responds to a threat by being smug and thinking they can ride it out. There is no way the show northerners could plan something out as meticulously as Manderley's insurrection.
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May 30, 2019 02:47
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people forget that being a Big Honorable Doof is not really the historical stark trait the historical stark traits are, apparently, either "reckless hot-blooded marauder" or "hard grim bastard" ned probably picked up most of his values in the Vale ned's also an extreme introvert with a lot of social anxieties, who likely grew up using honor and courtesies as excuses not to engage with people in ways he was uncomfortable with Calaveron posted:And then the Tully blood came along imo people have the wrong idea about tullys because of cat and edmure (although As We Know edmure in reality did nothing wrong) people seem to've decided the tullys are, like starks, Big Honorable Doofs really the historical tullys would have to've been savvy politics assholes in order to survive the untenable position they're in Hoster probably was that, at any rate PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 03:43 on May 30, 2019 |
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May 30, 2019 03:35
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i get why people don't want to engage with Fire & Blood (write the drat actual book GRRM, etc) there's some fun stuff in there though Cregan Stark kramering into King's Landing, going "yeah yeah, complex geopolitical issues, whatever, i'll fix this whole mess in like an hour if you just let me chop the heads off of all the obviously shady guys standing over in that corner" and waving his dick around for 1 day before going home PupsOfWar fucked around with this message at 03:49 on May 30, 2019 |
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May 30, 2019 03:41
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Trudis posted:It may be just me reading into show stuff a bit more than I should, but when Bran tells Sam about R+L, he doesn't say that the rebellion was based on a misconception or a mistake, but that it was built on a lie. Being lied to is different than making a false assumption, and it's been postulated that the liar in question could have been Littlefinger himself, who had a grudge against Brandon and was hanging around at the Crossroads Inn around the same time, still butthurt about losing the duel for Cat. If Littlefinger did indeed sow some of his trademark chaos by telling Brandon that Rhaegar had forcefully abducted Lyanna, it makes sense that Brandon would just go down to King's Landing and try to fight Rhaegar, and it also would echo Littlefinger's plot in the first book to get Ned Stark killed. This is way too much to read into a late-season GOT line that D&D didn't think twice about. They wrote that line because they didn't know about Southron Ambitions and probably even forgot that Brandon and Rickard were burned alive and Aerys called for Ned and Robert's heads, since that's what actually kicked off the rebellion
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May 30, 2019 03:52
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HidaO-Win posted:Counterpoint to the Seven not existing. Sansa is the most devout worshipper of the Seven in the book, she prays to them to hurt Joffrey and everything she prays for happens to him. counter-counter-counterpoint. Sansa prays all the time and her life was a never ending nightmare.
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May 30, 2019 05:09
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I think Sansa's less a devout worshipper and more 'oh god i have literally nothing but my mother's religion and my father's religion to offer me some semblence of comfort, maybe if i pray something good will happen'.
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May 30, 2019 05:20
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PupsOfWar posted:people forget that being a Big Honorable Doof is not really the historical stark trait There's a lot of like, assuming the backstory to GoT makes sense in here.
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May 30, 2019 05:28
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