|
priznat posted:What’d be the best way to handle an unsolicited recruiter for a job/company you’d love to work for but you really don’t want to relocate so chances of actually accepting are very low? Don't be dishonest. If the job requires relocation then tell the recruiter "I think the job is a great fit but I'm not willing to relocate." Chances are the recruiter is looking for someone willing to accept like 25% less than you currently make anyway (because that's how most recruiters roll, it seems) and it'll be a nonstarter anyway.
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 02:01
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 17, 2024 00:14 |
|
|
It probably is fine to do a phone interview. You said you probably wouldn't relocate so take the first step and see. If they ask for another interview you can decide if it is worth going further.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 02:15
|
|
|
If you’d relocate for a much larger sum of money, don’t rule out the possibility that they’d offer it.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 02:18
|
|
|
Yeah definitely wouldn’t be dishonest about it. I will just follow up back and say thanks but no thanks! If they were local I would go in for a chat, I just really don’t like phone interviews if I’m not actively seeking.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 03:38
|
|
|
If it's a company you'd love to work for and its an internal recruiter, let them know via email that you're interested but not willing to relocate. If there's even a small possibility of other opportunities, there is really no harm in a 15-30 min phone call.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 07:10
|
|
|
Would you relocate if they doubled your salary? Tripled? I don't think it's dishonest to say you'd need a really strong offer to consider relocating. I somehow doubt they're gonna forever curse your name as that guy who didn't want to move that interviewed anyway. I don't really think there's anything to lose by talking to them except the literal time spent interviewing, which you can schedule at your convenience. When's the last time you interviewed somewhere? There's a world where it's just a waste of time, but in this thread, the thread of a million bad excuses not to consider interviewing or leaving your job, that's pretty rarely the truth.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 09:49
|
|
|
Previous clinical director of supply burned out and abandoned the role, I was made acting clinical director of supply. The position was bigger than advertised, but I hadn't signed a contract for it yet. Was offered a contract, went to the chair and said "this job is bigger than advertised, it needs a more significant stipend than is listed" boom immediate pay raise. Thanks thread.
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 15:19
|
|
|
can't wait to hear about it in the bwm thread
|
|
#
?
May 30, 2019 17:06
|
|
|
I applied and interviewed for a specialist role, I got a call today from the hiring manager and she offered an administrative role "just below" this specialist role with the opportunity to move into the specialist role within "months" pending they approve of the work I do. The pay they offered is basically the same as I make now and probably slightly less as I would be losing my public transit subsidy. I'm not sure if I should negotiate to just cover what the loss of that subsidy would be or to try to negotiate for the title and compensation for the job if I originally applied for. Their rationale for offering me a lower position was that I've been out of that specific business for two years and their company is more unique and niche than where I was before. I dislike my current job, want to leave but I feel like this is some bait and switch.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2019 06:39
|
|
|
Casual Yogurt posted:I applied and interviewed for a specialist role, I got a call today from the hiring manager and she offered an administrative role "just below" this specialist role with the opportunity to move into the specialist role within "months" pending they approve of the work I do. The pay they offered is basically the same as I make now and probably slightly less as I would be losing my public transit subsidy. I'm not sure if I should negotiate to just cover what the loss of that subsidy would be or to try to negotiate for the title and compensation for the job if I originally applied for. Their rationale for offering me a lower position was that I've been out of that specific business for two years and their company is more unique and niche than where I was before. This is bait and switch 101. For me it’s a big red flag and I wouldn’t be able to trust the company enough to take a job there. You could try and negotiate a better deal and set your goal for whatever you see fit. If you get it, quit your job and see what the new company is like. If their hiring practise is as bad as their daily operations you can start looking for something new. If they don’t budge you at least have had some practise negotiating which is always useful. Whatever you do though, do not accept lower benefits/pay than you have now.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2019 06:57
|
|
|
Have you interviewed already? Interview and then ask for 2x the salary they offer. Within a few months you will put in for a lower salary depending on how much you like their business practices. Classic bait-and-switch indeed. Use them for interview practice then move on IMO.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2019 09:20
|
|
|
Definitely a bait and switch and you don’t want to work there.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2019 12:12
|
|
|
I can also say with 99% confidence that you will never be moved into the specialist role. And that 1% chance that you are will happen years later than "months".
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2019 18:09
|
|
|
Thanks guys, I have already interviewed and am sitting on their offer right now. I want to work in the position I originally applied for, in this industry but I've lost respect for the company and yea this seems like not a good place to work if they pull this poo poo. I've reached a dead end at my current job after being there for 2 years and been trying to leave. I've spend the last 8 months applying, interviewing and getting rejected from various jobs, this is the first offer I've gotten. I've been in a somewhat toxic loop of hating my current job and getting rejected after going thru rounds of interviews and to get a bait and switch offer like this I'm pretty loving bummed. I'm going to respond to their offer stating I want the title and compensation I originally applied for. Thankfully I have a job now so I'm not THAT desperate but god damnit I'm so burnt out.
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2019 20:47
|
|
|
However much this bait and switch sucks, keep in mind you are dodging a major bullet here. Imagine how you’d feel working your rear end off for a year and get completely boned on all false promises made with regards to performance management. That’s 10x worse then this. Now you got aome interview and negotiation practise. So go do it again. Until you find something you do like, a company that’ll gladly and get paid properly. Don’t accept less (unless you are literally homeless).
|
|
#
?
May 31, 2019 22:01
|
|
|
I'm thinking about asking for the first significant raise in my career and want to make sure no one thinks I"m about to walk into a mine field. First, a little backstory: I got out of school with a software engineering degree but my pay was pretty dismal at first both due to the economy still sort of sucking and being an idiot when considering how my pay was actually going to work. It was a consulting position that was heavily weighed to compensate based on travel and I wound up rolling snake-eyes and was only placed on local jobs with no travel. Most of my friends who took the same position were making over six figures- I was barely making over $50k. This unfortunately put me in a hole that I've been climbing out of for over seven years now. The next job knew they could low-ball me and did and only offered 3-4% raises each year while acting like a 4% raise was a huge deal. Fortunately my second job-hop to my current employer went well and landed me a pretty good pay increase and the three years I've been here now I've gotten roughly 10% and was promoted after working there for about half a year. All things considered I really love my current job. I'm very happy with my pay, the people I work with are great, there's tons of room for growth and my boss throws me into harder and harder projects with more responsibilities as soon as I'm ready for them. When I started here 3 years ago I was an individual contributer / associate and now I'm running my own projects entirely which includes client relationship management, finding additional funding for contract extensions, etc. Despite the large yearly raises though I'm starting to feel like I'm under compensated for what I've been doing. I think a fair shake would be essentially splitting the money I directly pull in into three, one share for me, one share for management since they're the ones lining up my next contract and handling the paperwork, and one share to the company which builds our product that makes my job so easy. It would put me about 20-25% higher than I'm currently paid so I don't think it's an outrageous ask either. Is that how I should approach the conversation? Just that while I've been very happy with my pay increases and love working here etc I just feel like the pay hasn't quite kept up with my increased responsibilities? Is the three-way split reasonable or something that's going to make my boss think I'm a dipshit? At the end of the day even if I get shot down I'm still happy as hell at this job and don't really need the money. So while I don't really have any negotiating position it also doesn't matter too much if I don't get what I want.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2019 01:01
|
|
|
Rex-Goliath posted:I'm thinking about asking for the first significant raise in my career and want to make sure no one thinks I"m about to walk into a mine field. First, a little backstory: Get your resume together and look for another job. It's not clear how your previous underpayment had any impact at all on your pay at this job, unless you didn't read the OP of this thread and actually told them what you were making. You need to not do that this time. You aren't going to get a meaningful raise at this job. Just move on, and do a better job negotiating this time.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2019 02:45
|
|
|
Motronic posted:It's not clear how your previous underpayment had any impact at all on your pay at this job, unless you didn't read the OP of this thread and actually told them what you were making. You need to not do that this time. Yeah I let it slip. Lesson learned
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2019 02:55
|
|
|
Rex-Goliath posted:Yeah I let it slip. Lesson learned I'm not trying to dunk on you, but this entire thread can be boiled down to two things: 1.) Research the market value of the position you are applying for and know what it's worth. Negotiate based on that number and never tell them what you were making at the last place. 2.) You are exceptionally unlikely to get a meaningful raise at your current job, ever. If you want a raise and have the skillset to take a position (even if it's the very same you you have now) with a market value that is in line with what you want to make then go find another job. 2a.) Do no accept the counter offer from your current employer when you've found that better paying job, because they are only going to match/beat that salary until the find someone to replace you at or below your previous compensation. It's really that simple in today's climate. That might change.....I hope it changes. But that's how things go down right now in so many cases that it's not just "common" (so you might have the feeling that you are in a better position that most and can beat the odds), and it's not even "overwhelmingly correct" (where you might have such a high opinion of yourself that you still don't think this applies). It's like 98% of all situations in the US right now. Motronic fucked around with this message at 03:26 on Jun 3, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2019 03:24
|
|
|
Oh yeah I know that stuff. More just making sure that I’m not going to screw something up when asking for the raise. I even think management has realized on their own that i’m below market rate and are a bit uneasy about it hence the 10% raises each year. Last year I was fine with that but in the past year I’ve really taken a lot of additional responsibilities and think I’m due. Another detail is that both my sales exec and manager have both been hinting very loudly that I’m due for another promotion even though I was just promoted to my current level just under two years ago. My gut is telling me this raise is going to be coming anyways but we’ll see. I think I want to get out ahead of that promotion and anchor what I think my oh should be once that happens. If we’re at the end of the summer and I have nothing to show for it I may start looking.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2019 03:43
|
|
|
Start looking now. Get offers. Know your worth. You sound like you have Stockholm Syndrome. Your employer does not give a poo poo about you as a person. You need to internalize that.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2019 03:48
|
|
|
Rex-Goliath posted:If we’re at the end of the summer and I have nothing to show for it I may start looking. This is the same employer that lowballed you in the first place. You said you had coworkers making 6 figures seven years ago. Are you making that much yet? Look for jobs now instead of hoping that they throw you another scrap.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2019 04:07
|
|
|
Inept posted:This is the same employer that lowballed you in the first place. yeah i’m well into six figures now. my comp is basically at where i would expect it to be at my title last year. the thing is that over the past year we’ve had a lot of situations where i had to step up and did so. i think i’m at the point where i’ve established the trend that i’m operating at the higher level and the larger raise / promotion is justified. also- this may have been the wrong thread to post this in haha. i think the career thread is where it should have gone
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2019 04:17
|
|
|
Motronic posted:It's really that simple in today's climate. That might change.....I hope it changes. But that's how things go down right now in so many cases that it's not just "common" (so you might have the feeling that you are in a better position that most and can beat the odds), and it's not even "overwhelmingly correct" (where you might have such a high opinion of yourself that you still don't think this applies). It's like 98% of all situations in the US right now. So you're saying there's a chance!!!
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2019 14:16
|
|
|
Eric the Mauve posted:So you're saying there's a chance!!! The thing all of you forget is there is no reason you cant do both. Work and advocate for yourself as much as possible at your current position AND potential new ones. Yeah you are more likely to move up by switching jobs but the idea that the second you are hired your employer is the enemy to get as far away from as possible isnt good advice. That is assuming you like your position/situation. If youre unhappy then by all means jump ship.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2019 16:08
|
|
|
Keystoned posted:Yeah you are more likely to move up by switching jobs but the idea that the second you are hired your employer is the enemy to get as far away from as possible isnt good advice. Nobody in this thread has said that. You seem confused because so many people come to this thread because their employer _IS_ in fact the enemy because they are being underpaid. I've been working for the same place for over 4 years and I've been paid market for the positions I've held the entire time. I'm perfectly happy with them. This is why I and other people in similar situations don't need to post here.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2019 16:13
|
|
|
In this case though he said he was making market for old responsibilities. He got new responsibilities, stretch/growth goals? He feels like he is crushing it. My advice would be to go in and talk about a raise based on the additional responsibilities and doing well at it. Especially if he is happy with the place he works otherwise.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2019 16:15
|
|
|
spwrozek posted:In this case though he said he was making market for old responsibilities. He got new responsibilities, stretch/growth goals? He feels like he is crushing it. My advice would be to go in and talk about a raise based on the additional responsibilities and doing well at it. Especially if he is happy with the place he works otherwise. Yeah this. I’ve been very happy here and by all accounts it sounds like management is already aware of all this and about to act during our yearly ‘big’ review in a few months. I more want to anchor what I think I should be paid ahead of time but that also runs the risk of shorting myself.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2019 16:22
|
|
|
You’re almost never going to get market rate in terms of pure cash compensation by staying at an organization. That’s part of the deal. And it’s ok, because there are other forms of compensation that come from being in a stable employment situation, including growth opportunities, mentorship, personal relationships, etc. The issue is when the spread from what you’re paid to market rate isn’t made up for by those additional compensatory elements. The only way to know what that spread is, is to go out and get offers.
|
|
#
?
Jun 3, 2019 16:41
|
|
|
Relevant? Background Information Posted in this thread about a year ago and got good advice, although I'm still in the same position I was in before, being underpaid. I was (and am currently) being paid 84K as a Product Manager and had to turn down about 105K in another city (Houston) as my wife found a job where we live now (Chicago) right after I got the offer, so financially it was the smart choice. as she's now gone from unemployed to being paid 80K. After turning down the Houston job, I decided to stick around to take advantage of some training benefits and see if I could get a raise in a year. Took some classes and then asked for a raise about 3 months ago to get me to 105K. While I genuinely believe my boss "went to bat" I wasn't holding my breath and basically started applying for jobs the day I asked for the raise to see which came first. The winner seems like it will be getting an offer. Plus, a Product Manager in another department told me he just got a raise and didn't even have to ask so even the most optimistic conclusion is that our department is undervalued. I've been interviewing for various jobs for the past 3 months, not quite pedal to the metal though, mostly responding to internal recruiters but have also been applying independently. I haven't been happy with recruiting agencies. Salaries have generally been in the neighborhood of 105K but I've had a lot of interviews get dropped after the first or second phone interviews. I've usually been a pretty good interviewer so I'm not sure why 80% of those conversations drop off. Real poo poo I've had a string of good luck in terms of recent interviews and I've moved pretty far along for a position that is more of a lateral move for the same position, but will almost certainly pay better. I have my final round interview next week but so far so good. While I'll never believe in a sure thing, everyone I've interviewed with has given me a wink and a nudge in terms of working there so I'm optimistic, especially as the recruiter is trying to set up a meeting to discuss compensation specifically. I've been able to give them the slip so far but not sure how I'll operate in this meeting. I received their benefits summary recently and it's unlimited PTO w/ no 401K match. Currently I receive a decent match and I have something like 23-24 PTO days, which in my opinion is better than unlimited. I'm pretty good at dodging these questions but I'm not sure how to avoid saying a number first in a conversation that's purely about compensation. Glassdoor puts the position in a wide range, 80K - 120K, so no idea where to go. I'll probably ask for 115K if pressed and let them balk. I'm still evaluating the company itself too, it's a tough nut to crack. Pros: - Probably will pay me more - Website lists Equity/Stock options but they're still private so not even sure how to evaluate this one - Work from home Cons: - "Unlimited PTO", can't even negotiate this since technically it's better than where I'm at - No 401(k) match - Red flag: Met at a coffee shop for my in-person interview, perhaps this is excusable as there is no office in Chicago yet - Red flag: Was contacted for a Senior Product Manager position, after the first interview the SPM there said while I was likeable, but since I'm coming from another industry and probably 1-3 years of general experience away from a senior position, it now it seems likely that I'm moving along for a regular Product Manager position. It might be bait-and-switch but this is kind of how I got my current job, and for the first 3 years I was pretty happy with what I have, so I'm willing to hear the rest - Smaller, less renowned company I'm inclined to go for the offer if it's sufficiently high. I haven't crunched the equivalent for the 401(k) match but it's still probably a huge net gain assuming I can get at least 105K. Even if the move is lateral I'll get paid 20K+ more for the year or so I need to put in before I can get a "real" senior position as I don't see a promotion/raise in the cards for the next couple of months in my current gig at the very least. The alternative is to hold out and really buckle down looking for a quality slam-dunk position at some bigger name place with more traditional benefits. I'm currently in the beginning interview stages for another lateral move to a company that is more of a household name than this, but it's far from a sure thing. Mostly I wanted to write this to organize my thoughts but also would love some input.
|
|
#
?
Jun 4, 2019 02:31
|
|
|
I'm guessing this is a startup running on investor money since their equity/stocks are still private and they don't offer a 401k match. If a business is in this stage, since they aren't technically profiting off of any sales yet, it's common to not offer a 401k match. There's no harm interviewing here, but don't even consider an offer unless they pay you a shitload more, because you're going to probably be forced to work long hours and there's a 99% chance you won't ever see a cent from equity/stocks. The "unlimited PTO" thing is also a red flag, but if you get to an in-person interview and you have a segment with another employee that's at the same level as you, you can probably ask them if people are actually able to use their PTO. Often, the "unlimited PTO" thing is total bullshit, but I personally know some people that work for unlimited PTO companies and are actually allowed to use it, so it just depends. All that said, your current deal is pretty good, so I'm going to repeat myself: don't even consider an offer unless they pay you a shitload more.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2019 17:23
|
|
|
Expect an interview to be at least 25% sales pitch by volume, and they're going to pressure you to take equity (lottery tickets) instead of cash. Hold firm and demand more cash. They will challenge you, state that they only want folks who believe in the vision, make it sound like they'll take back the offer (maybe they will, so what???), and you gotta weather all of it and continue insisting that you are paid in large amounts of dollars.
|
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2019 17:37
|
|
|
Thanks for the advice. Long story short I have accepted the new position. As a test, I've mentioned that I have an upcoming vacation to ensure I get that time off in writing and it went over no problem. I know that we're still the sweetheart phase of the relationship so I have a much higher chance of getting what I want now rather than later, but at least they didn't bat an eye. Thread pays off once again - I ended up going back and forth in the negotiation and landed on 105K + 10K annual performance bonus + 5K signing bonus. In the first year, this will be 25-35K more than I make now which I consider a shitload of money. Green flag: I didn't get equity pushed on me and the interviews did not feel like sales pitches. Interesting that you guys were able to deduce that it is a startup just based on the lack of a 401(k) match and the equity listing. You were pretty much right, the company is a (profitable) mature startup. I'm certain this still means there's a good chance I get worked like a dog, and there was a red flag in that I was sent emails from HR at 9 PM and my new boss at midnight. I'm willing to roll the dice for this much cash and I'll still follow up on my other interviews in case this turns out to be a nightmare job in the first few weeks, but in any case I really think I need a change of pace instead of languishing at 85K for another year+. My suspicions about my current/former situation were basically confirmed when I spoke to my boss to give notice. There was no attempt to lie about a promotion/raise being right around the corner and admitted that the request had pretty much gone into a black hole. I truly hope this is the right decision but in my mind, the most realistic "bad" scenario is sticking it out for a year until I can land a senior position while having an additional ~$30,000 to wipe away my tears. RustedChainsaw fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Jun 7, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jun 6, 2019 22:18
|
|
|
I'm not nearly as much of an expert as other people here. I just saw your post and immediately had nightmarish flashbacks to a past job. Sounds like you got an alright deal though- congrats!
|
|
#
?
Jun 7, 2019 02:08
|
|
|
m0therfux0r posted:I'm not nearly as much of an expert as other people here. I just saw your post and immediately had nightmarish flashbacks to a past job. Thanks! It's nice to finally be in the six figgies club. Not to get too off-topic but what were some of the early warning signs of your nightmarish past job? I still have some interviews I'm finishing up this week so if they're raising enough of them, there's a chance I could abort this.
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2019 15:32
|
|
|
Nightmarish is an exaggeration- I actually liked the work I was doing, but eventually I realized that I was being waaaaay underpaid. The other red flags that eventually came were way later and I was only able to find out about them since I was already an employee. The one that sticks out the most is how management kept insisting everything was totally fine after two VPs resigned within a few days of each other (one of whom was the first employee at the company besides the founder). A year later we were bankrupt and about 120 people were laid off (leaving literally 15 people in the entire company).
|
|
#
?
Jun 10, 2019 18:42
|
|
|
RustedChainsaw posted:and there was a red flag in that I was sent emails from HR at 9 PM and my new boss at midnight.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2019 02:20
|
|
|
I recently got a proto-offer for 125 vs. my current 105 base (still don't know total comp on the new thing). My current job is as a spreadsheet toucher/Python "modeller" and the new job would be a pure spreadsheet touching kind of finance. I really want to escape from software hell, and return to the pure goodness of spreadsheets, waterfall graphs, and meetings. However, I feel like between personally being an exemplar of a "techy" finance person where I work (I got a lot of credit for writing a script that turns some vendor specific xml into a dataframe) and that workplace pushing us to automate and use more programmatic tools I will not be able to return to the promised land of doing a thing I'm good at and will instead continue to do a thing only seem to know I'm bad at. Otherwise, my current job is really good in terms of time off and flexibility. The offer would be somewhere more rigid (people would check that I'm logged on and I'd have to "earn" wfh after 6 months) but I think higher prestige work and my title would improve. Thinking about the option tree, the only reasons I think I would want to stay would be to try to switch to being a full time coder (I know the money would be better, but it's hard to enjoy the work), or if I think they will soon promote me, but I'm more than a little afraid of my incompetence coming home to roost.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2019 04:37
|
|
|
2013 lurker rereg posted:I recently got a proto-offer for 125 vs. my current 105 base (still don't know total comp on the new thing). My current job is as a spreadsheet toucher/Python "modeller" and the new job would be a pure spreadsheet touching kind of finance. Have you asked your current boss for a raise / promotion without mentioning an offer? If you prefer to stay where you are, you should at least ask for 125K and a title change right now. It costs you nothing, risks nothing, and gives you more information about your situation. If your boss seems warm to the idea, you can put a point in the "remain" camp. If they balk or react negatively, you can put a point to the "leave" camp. Even if your boss tells you something along the lines of "Let me get back to you in X days/weeks/years" you know what to expect if you remain at your current company. Sounds like you should take the offer, but don't forget to negotiate and go hard since your BATNA is pretty strong since you don't hate your job. You're not getting ahead by not taking risks, and the risks here are marginal. The only reason you're considering staying is to make a change completely opposed to what you want to do. Don't worry about your skill level right now, if they give you the job you'll probably be fine, especially if you like it.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2019 18:55
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 17, 2024 00:14 |
|
|
I'm not sure if it's the jobs I'm applying to or maybe the companies but I've been having no issues deflecting comp stuff from recruiters this time around. I'm definitely midcareer now vs when I was last on a serious job hunt but it still seems odd.
|
|
#
?
Jun 11, 2019 22:15
|
|
